MiG-21 Bison - The Underdog

[brahmastra]

its just a joke brother if i offended you in any way sorry.... but you see our antiques dont crash take that into prespective aswell ..... i think

follow the link
Pakistan_F-7P

 

[zagahaga]

follow the link
Pakistan_F-7P

thank you very much sir as i know you did not bash at me like most of your indian counterparts do.

but i have a nice link for them as well

Warbirds of India - [Air Crash / Attrition Listings of the Indian Air Forces]

Warbirds of India - [Air Crash / Attrition Listings of the Indian Air Forces]

which is better only quality of the ground crew is subjected to this matter and we all know by far PAF is exceptional to this by date.

 

[A$HU]

yes sir science you the link let me see and let it be neutral .... beacuse from what i know india has 1024 air crashes/loses..... while pakistan only has 363 ... this is come from offical indian sourses

Oh yaar c'mon .You should have read his post properly,he is talking about ratio.

 

[nightrider_saulat]

As I said, with an AWACS linkup, Bison wont even need to turn its radar on...

bur for a BVR missile lock you need a long range radar
and sorry to say that AEWACS can't increase your missile lock range
how can 60KM combat radius radar can help you to lock a target 80-100 KM away
then it's own position......an either way F-7PG can detect targets at between 60-100KM range if they have SD-10 with their "GRIFO M" series radar under their wings

 

[zagahaga]

Oh yaar c'mon .You should have read his post properly,he is talking about ratio.

if he talking about mig21 bison vs f-7 in crashes then i do not know its preety hard to find out that

 

[qsaark]

even F-7PG's radar have more range then bison's radar,i guess so

No, the Grifo-7PG has a maximum range of 37+ km, unlike 50+km of the Bison hence the Bisons can fire BVR AAMS, but F-7 PGs cant. Why PAF was not able to put a better radar in PG? because of the limited space of the 'cone'. The Bison's cone is spacier and can accommodate larger antenna. Yes, our Mirages-III fitted with Grifo M3 have a range of approximately 60km and can fire BVR AAM (most likely R-Darter).

 

[TheBraveHeart]

yes sir science you the link let me see and let it be neutral .... beacuse from what i know india has 1024 air crashes/loses..... while pakistan only has 363 ... this is come from offical indian sourses

if he talking about mig21 bison vs f-7 in crashes then i do not know its preety hard to find out that

I dont know what ur intentions are by bringing in the crashes in otherwise good thread!! Also to compare mishaps only in terms of no. accidents is completely wrong cause IAF & IN operates around three times that of PAF(us wiki dont ask for source) ...

To make my previous post clear, I was comparing Mig-21 and F-7 only cause they are more or less similar although modifications have been done over period of time.....

I asked u to check for figures and ratio,which u said was hard to find...I know its difficult, but u cud hv atleast tried to prove ur point...!!
I have done my bit a few months ago, and would like to share my research...mind u its not absolutely correct but I tried my best as far as I could (so dont argue if any discrepancies, actual numbers may be many more but these are the least confirmed)...also it doesnt include helos cause I didnt get good sources....

IAF
AIRCRAFT NUMBERS INDUCTED LOST CURRENT NO.
JAGUAR 177 39 ~135
SUKHOI 30-MKI ~120 02 ~105
MIG-29(IAF+IN) 70+4 8+0 62+4
MIRAGE-2000 60 9 51
MIG-21 657 120+ ~125
MIG-27 ~140 22+ ~100
MIG-23 ~70 28 RET.
HPT-32 DEEPAK ~70 03
HJT-16 KIRAN 190 34
BAE HAWK 26 01 25
AN-32 CLINE 119 15 104
HAWKER SIDDELY HS 748 ~64 03
DORNIER DO 228 60+ 0 ~60
ILLYUSHIN-76 CANDID ~24 0 12-15
78MKI,PHALCON 7 0 7
SEA HARRIER(NAVY) 30 19 11
IJT-36 01 01 00
MIG-25 02-04 RET.
LCA 0 0 0
MRCA 0 0 0

PAF
AIRCRAFT NUMBERS INDUCTED LOST CURRENT NO.
NANCHANG A-5 ~142 15 ~40
CHENGDU F-7 192 43 149
SHENYANG F-6 253 70 RET.
JF-17 11 0 11
CHENGDU J-10 0 0 0
F-16 FALCON 56 10 ~45
DASSAULT MIRAGE ~125+~94 58 ~150
MFI-17 MUSHAK ~155 12 ~140
T-37 TWEET
~40 3 37
K-8 KARAKORUM
~24 0 22


To end my argument, and to suggest the best possible way of finding which air force has more accidents irrespective of size but operational hrs go through the link ....it is an old one but atleast u can get an idea what i mean...

since ur ready to believe on an Indian source, u can through this..
ATTRITION IN THE INDIAN AND PAKISTAN AIR FORCES
BHARAT RAKSHAK MONITOR  Volume 2(4)

if u hv ny other sources which disprove my argument let me know but if ur intention is just brag about the crashes and hurt our feelings ...good luck...!!!

 

[brahmastra]

Bison with the Isareli EL/L-8222 ECM pod

 

[zagahaga]

yes IAF HAS more planes but it dosent mean that should be an excusee .... i mean there should be a certain limit that IAF should withstand ... all in all mig 21 has failed in IAF due to over crashing which reasoning was poor maintainence ... the reason why f 7 crashed is beacuse somw where seconed hand ... so it happend but if none where there would have been no loss .. beacuse PAF is know for qualty not quanity

 

[brahmastra]

yes IAF HAS more planes but it dosent mean that should be an excusee .... i mean there should be a certain limit that IAF should withstand ... all in all mig 21 has failed in IAF due to over crashing which reasoning was poor maintainence ... the reason why f 7 crashed is beacuse somw where seconed hand ... so it happend but if none where there would have been no loss .. beacuse PAF is know for qualty not quanity

then you wouldn't have gone for Jf-17.

 

[KS]

its just a joke brother if i offended you in any way sorry.... but you see our antiques dont crash take that into prespective aswell ..... i think

all u guys can see id few F-16s here nd there nd u think all is well with PAF..cmon frankly both the airforces (IAF,PAF) are plagued with this aged aircraft problem nd I cant speak for PAF but IAF atleast is moving in the right direction.

MOD EDIT: dont troll.

 

[below_freezing]

we've already started converting our J-7's into unmanned drones.

despite the improvements i don't think the mig-21 can stand up to heavy 2nd generation planes like the F-4 and J-8 due to its nose intake, which severely limits its radar range, and its inability to fire intermediate range beyond visual range missiles.

 

[nightrider_saulat]

No, the Grifo-7PG has a maximum range of 37+ km, unlike 50+km of the Bison hence the Bisons can fire BVR AAMS, but F-7 PGs cant. Why PAF was not able to put a better radar in PG? because of the limited space of the 'cone'. The Bison's cone is spacier and can accommodate larger antenna. Yes, our Mirages-III fitted with Grifo M3 have a range of approximately 60km and can fire BVR AAM (most likely R-Darter).

thanks for correcting me friend

 

[SQ8]

I can assure you that the PG's are also capable of engaging BVR and have simulated so in the current exercise. How? I have no concrete idea as of yet, but the people who matter, those who fly and those who plan have told me so.

 

[pop_alsa]

Sad for me to say this is indian besharmi .LCA was going to replace it long time back but we use this relic still after loosing so many pilots since our politicos our figuring how much cut they are going to have in the selection of just two engines ie F414 or EJ200.Sad to see our pilots go through this nighmare just so that some gentlemen in delhi can get illbegotten gains.Look how fast the V.I.P choppers were ordered, the augusta wetland.

Why blame politicians for LCA delays? IAF played a big role in it.

Does anyone cared to act on those lax and incompetent Army Generals who were sleeping when intruders succeeded into creating bases within Indian territories? Our Soliders did a perfect job of informing their seniors in Delhi but who cared?

Be it politicians, corrupt babus, "imports lobby" or IAF top leadership(boot lickers of politicians), everyone played big roles in delaying LCA which we are still paying price for.

Recent corruption expose of top Indian Army leader is good example of our rotten Army system. We need a big cleanup.