Mid night raid in Srinager on 19th august 2019

[ziaulislam]

Modi thinks he has the guts to implement the tough decisions that comes with big ideas. His big idea on demonetization fell straight on its face. Average guy went through hell, but hardly achieved any of the stated goals. As the saying goes the road to hell is paved with big ideas.

I don't see how this idea is going to be any different.

yet the average guy voted for him..and will again

Back in old days, BSF started to face a tough time after conducting such raids. The freedom fighters that BSF was facing were men trained against Soviet Army, including VDV and Spetsnaz. If BSF raided houses and took away children/adults, the freedom fighters would kidnap BSF personnel in retaliation when opportunity presented. A very few freedom fighters joined in the fight against BSF from different countries such as chechens and uzbeks. Some of them had fought alongside CIA operatives and SSG personnel in Afghanistan. This brought in multitude of experience for local freedom fighters. BSF was initially unprepared against the tactics used by them. The freedom fighters made BSF movement hell inside the valley, on the roads and check points. At some locations, freedom fighters dominated the roads and areas during the night time and BSF or IA could not venture into those areas.

This however is almost non-existent now, since past two decades.


Hypocrites are kashmiris, not Pakistan Army or Pakistani Leadership.

Kashmiris deliberately helped Indian Army in 1965 against Pakistani SSG. After that, Kashmiris then did not help PA in 1971, 1984, 1999, 2001/2 against Indian Army and let the opportunities slip by.

1971, Pakistan Army's 23rd Infantry Division was making inroads into Kashmir, no Kashmiris from IOK helped this formation of Pakistan Army against Indian Army.

1984, Siachen conflict had started, Kashmiris made no noise, provided no intel about IA movement or air lifts. Till today Kashmiris and freedom fighters aren't concerned about Siachen yet they expect Pakistan to support them.

The Kargil war was a very good opportunity for Kasmiris to ensure that Indian soldiers do not reach Kargil with heavy equipment and reinforcements. kashmiris/freedom fighters just stood at the side watching and wanted Pakistan Army to do everything for them.

2001/2, IA and BSF stood alert on borders against Pakistan where as Pakistan Army was saturating from borders and moving towards western side (KPK), Kashmiris and freedom fighters did nothing but watched Indian Army making its way to the borders easily.

Now, kashmiris and Pakistanis want Pakistan Army to launch a war against Indian Army in kashmir !

Why should Pakistan Army launch a war on behalf of kashmiris who have been constantly betraying Pakistan and Pakistan Army at every given occasion and opportunity ?


khuda uss kom ki halat nai badalta jo apni halat khud na badlay. Its sad to see kashmiris suffering but its their own choice.

fully agree...i was stating this well before Kashmirs to some extent are responsible for their plight due to their own indecisiveness and division, Kashmirs till yesterday were divided in minority pro Indian, independence and minority Pakistani faction, now all of these factions are confused..as they dont know how to proceed...

a simple analysis should have been enough for the Kashmirs to realize that they should have been pro Pakistani(as Pakistan is asking for UN based right of self determination) and later could have sought differences whether to remain independent or join Pakistan...

 

[Signalian]

y
fully agree...i was stating this well before Kashmirs to some extent are responsible for their plight due to their own indecisiveness and division, Kashmirs till yesterday were divided in minority pro Indian, independence and minority Pakistani faction, now all of these factions are confused..as they dont know how to proceed...

a simple analysis should have been enough for the Kashmirs to realize that they should have been pro Pakistani(as Pakistan is asking for UN based right of self determination) and later could have sought differences whether to remain independent or join Pakistan...

If kashmiris were sincere to join with Pakistan, they wouldnt have let many opportunities slip by. They just want Pakistan Army to liberate them from Indian Army and then they will decide whether to join Pakistan or remain independent. However, they have never been aligned with Pakistan Army for their freedom in any case.

An average Pakistani thinks that Pakistan Army should do something to support Kashmiris but doesn't realize that Kashmiris are suffering due to their own choice. Nothing stopped them from assisting Pakistan Army at so many occasions. On LOC, Indian Army starts firing artillery and mortars at civilian Pakistanis however Pakistan Army doesn't fire artillery on IOK civilians knowing they are muslims.

 

[War Thunder]

Hypocrites are kashmiris, not Pakistan Army or Pakistani Leadership.

Kashmiris deliberately helped Indian Army in 1965 against Pakistani SSG. After that, Kashmiris then did not help PA in 1971, 1984, 1999, 2001/2 against Indian Army and let the opportunities slip by.

1971, Pakistan Army's 23rd Infantry Division was making inroads into Kashmir, no Kashmiris from IOK helped this formation of Pakistan Army against Indian Army.

1984, Siachen conflict had started, Kashmiris made no noise, provided no intel about IA movement or air lifts. Till today Kashmiris and freedom fighters aren't concerned about Siachen yet they expect Pakistan to support them.

The Kargil war was a very good opportunity for Kasmiris to ensure that Indian soldiers do not reach Kargil with heavy equipment and reinforcements. kashmiris/freedom fighters just stood at the side watching and wanted Pakistan Army to do everything for them.

2001/2, IA and BSF stood alert on borders against Pakistan where as Pakistan Army was saturating from borders and moving towards western side (KPK), Kashmiris and freedom fighters did nothing but watched Indian Army making its way to the borders easily.

Now, kashmiris and Pakistanis want Pakistan Army to launch a war against Indian Army in kashmir !

Why should Pakistan Army launch a war on behalf of kashmiris who have been constantly betraying Pakistan and Pakistan Army at every given occasion and opportunity ?

Because we are not them? And our ability to do what is right to protect our Muslim sisters and mothers does not come from the ability of their sons to support us? They don't have the courage or willingness, I agree, but we have been blessed with those I suppose? If not, then what is the difference?

Besides, how easy is it for a population under 6 lakh + soldiers to be willing to risk the modesty of their women and their own lives and go and blow up a few soldiers?

Allah did not give them the means or power, but Allah has given us. And if we fail to use it to protect those who are oppressed then tomorrow we will become the oppressed because Allah raises and lowers who ever He wills and He tests us with both the power and a complete lack of it.

P.S: I have also criticized Kashmiris before. But honestly what any of us will be willing to do in the kind of situation the Kashmiris live in? Provided they are not a fighter race unlike pashtuns of Afghanistan, an dmost of them are timid and peaceful and simple folk?

 

[Signalian]

Because we are not them? And our ability to do what is right to protect our Muslim sisters and mothers does not come from the ability of their sons to support us? They don't have the courage or willingness, I agree, but we have been blessed with those I suppose? If not, then what is the difference?

Besides, how easy is it for a population under 6 lakh + soldiers to be willing to risk the modesty of their women and their own lives and go and blow up a few soldiers?

Allah did not give them the means or power, but Allah has given us. And if we fail to use it to protect those who are oppressed then tomorrow we will become the oppressed because Allah raises and lowers who ever He wills and He tests us with both the power and a complete lack of it.

P.S: I have also criticized Kashmiris before. But honestly what any of us will be willing to do in the kind of situation the Kashmiris live in? Provided they are not a fighter race unlike pashtuns of Afghanistan, an dmost of them are timid and peaceful and simple folk?

A guerilla campaign cannot be successful if local population doesnt support the guerillas (as seen in Ops Gibraltar) and you want a full fledged invasion where the local population will never assist Pakistani forces, tell me how is the Ops viable then ?

Accept the fact; Kashmiris will not support Pakistan Army as it invades IOK, they have not in past, they won't in future.

 

[HRK]

 

[Psychic]

This however is almost non-existent now, since past two decades.

Ever since Musharraf succumbed - we lost the only leverage we had.
Mujahideen and Kashmiris had tied down 7 lakh soldiers from Punjab and Rajhastan in Kashmir. The troops destined to fight PA were engaged in CI ops and were confined in the tiny valley yielding strategic advantage to Pakistan.

During Op Parakaram and later cease fire of 2003, we loosened our grip around their neck. Cracked down on freedom fighters and ended our material as well as moral support to the resistance.

1971, Pakistan Army's 23rd Infantry Division was making inroads into Kashmir, no Kashmiris from IOK helped this formation of Pakistan Army against Indian Army.

1984, Siachen conflict had started, Kashmiris made no noise, provided no intel about IA movement or air lifts. Till today Kashmiris and freedom fighters aren't concerned about Siachen yet they expect Pakistan to support them.

The Kargil war was a very good opportunity for Kasmiris to ensure that Indian soldiers do not reach Kargil with heavy equipment and reinforcements. kashmiris/freedom fighters just stood at the side watching and wanted Pakistan Army to do everything for them.

2001/2, IA and BSF stood alert on borders against Pakistan where as Pakistan Army was saturating from borders and moving towards western side (KPK), Kashmiris and freedom fighters did nothing but watched Indian Army making its way to the borders easily.

Now, kashmiris and Pakistanis want Pakistan Army to launch a war against Indian Army in kashmir !

Why should Pakistan Army launch a war on behalf of kashmiris who have been constantly betraying Pakistan and Pakistan Army at every given occasion and opportunity ?

Please avoid generalization, exaggeration and making things look a lot easier than they actually are. Revolting without foreign aid is easier said than done.
They are burying their dead in Pak flags today and you start your usual whataboutism. What you are doing is what is known as garhay murday ukharna.

The Kargil war was a very good opportunity for Kasmiris to ensure that Indian soldiers do not reach Kargil with heavy equipment and reinforcements. kashmiris/freedom fighters just stood at the side watching and wanted Pakistan Army to do everything for them.

Mir jaffars exist everywhere. 65 example is no more relevant.
What Kashmiris should have done as per you is easier said than done. You have not lived under occupation so it is understandable.
They were fighting at the front lines. Behind enemy lines and in the streets of Srinagar. HM alone gave 37000 shaheeds to Kashmir. Still this is not enough for you just because they failed. The valley has just 6 million population out of which a lakh have given their lives. You can continue to trivialize their sacrifices just because it suits your agenda.

Below are the pictures of mujahideen fighting at the front lines in Kargil. Generals did not deploy them elsewhere(where you wanted) or perhaps they didn't know better than you.

 

[Signalian]

Ever since Musharraf succumbed - we lost the only leverage we had.
Mujahideen and Kashmiris had tied down 7 lakh soldiers from Punjab and Rajhastan in Kashmir. The troops destined to fight PA were engaged in CI ops and were confined in the tiny valley yielding strategic advantage to Pakistan.

During Op Parakaram and later cease fire of 2003, we loosened our grip around their neck. Cracked down on freedom fighters and ended our material as well as moral support to the resistance.

Please avoid generalization, exaggeration and making things look a lot easier than they actually are. Revolting without foreign aid is easier said than done.
They are burying their dead in Pak flags today and you start your usual whataboutism. What you are doing is what is known as garhay murday ukharna.

Mir jaffars exist everywhere. 65 example is no more relevant.
What Kashmiris should have done as per you is easier said than done. You have not lived under occupation so it is understandable.
They were fighting at the front lines. Behind enemy lines and in the streets of Srinagar. HM alone gave 37000 shaheeds to Kashmir. Still this is not enough for you just because they failed. The valley has just 6 million population out of which a lakh have given their lives. You can continue to trivialize their sacrifices just because it suits your agenda.

Below are the pictures of mujahideen fighting at the front lines in Kargil. Generals did not deploy them elsewhere(where you wanted) or perhaps they didn't know better than you.

You needed to blame on somebody so you did, you chose Musharraf. History has already shown how Kashmiris lost opportunity after opportunity which you termed as "garhay murday ukharna "? To put it in a best way, what you sow is what you shall reap. The 1965 example is every green and will always be relevant. The kashmiris who are dying today can pay tribute to their grand fathers who sided with Indian Army in pointing out locations of Pakistani Military personnel. kashmiris sided with Indian army in past and paying the price today, bad choice i must say !

Now coming back to Musharraf; you have so blatantly blamed him for the fate of Kashmir without any knowledge that he kept getting posted in AJK region during all his ranks, especially higher ranks. He kept taking part in SSG Operations in AJK and commanded formations on LOC. At the end of last century, he made a final move to capture peaks in IOK. So before you start commenting on things you dont know about, do some research.

Now lets take a simple quiz to extract your head buried in the sand.
As for burying in Pakistani flags today, does that get them freedom ? NO.
What gets them freedom ? Siding with a force which liberates them .
Which force is that ? Pakistani Army.
Did they side with Pakistan Army during any conflict in past century ? NO (PA/scouts brought mujahideen with them who stood on kargil heights, no mujahideen arrived from inside IOK)

If kashmiris don't want to live under occupation, then they have to make the move and seriously getting wrapped in pakistani flag coffins is not the way to end occupation. Kashmiris chose to live under Indian occupation by not siding with Pakistani Military. Doesn't need a rocket scientist to figure out whose paying the price today.

Now to your most ridiculous point of Kashmiris tying down IA formations from Punjab and the desert, well didnt happen. India moved BSF only, and increased its numbers in IOK. The regular military formations remained station in Punjab and desert. There were some CPRF units movement also.

As for the pictures, they seem to be mixed of regulars and scouts. The mujahideen that were amongst them were 5% of the total force and mostly were fighting at the front lines in Kargil (as you pointed out ) , do you know why ? Coz they were brought along with PA and scouts. Nothing happened inside IOK and that i have correctly pointed out. So how many convoys, fuel dumps, military HQ's etc became targets from inside IOK ? How many Indian troops were ambushed on the way to kargil from inside IOK ? how many formations were delayed by obstructions on the roads from inside IOK ?

Please take your defensive banter elsewhere and throw your points at someone who has no understanding of military and kashmir issue.

You can accuse me of having an agenda, but its you who needs to open his eyes. Have you heard DG ISPR's speech ? havent yet ? go hear it then ! You will get an idea what I am talking about.

 

[Psychic]

You needed to blame on somebody so you did, you chose Musharraf. History has already shown how Kashmiris lost opportunity after opportunity which you termed as "garhay murday ukharna "? To put it in a best way, what you sow is what you shall reap. The 1965 example is every green and will always be relevant. The kashmiris who are dying today can pay tribute to their grand fathers who sided with Indian Army in pointing out locations of Pakistani Military personnel. kashmiris sided with Indian army in past and paying the price today, bad choice i must say !

Now coming back to Musharraf; you have so blatantly blamed him for the fate of Kashmir without any knowledge that he kept getting posted in AJK region during all his ranks, especially higher ranks. He kept taking part in SSG Operations in AJK and commanded formations on LOC. At the end of last century, he made a final move to capture peaks in IOK. So before you start commenting on things you dont know about, do some research.

Now lets take a simple quiz to extract your head buried in the sand.
As for burying in Pakistani flags today, does that get them freedom ? NO.
What gets them freedom ? Siding with a force which liberates them .
Which force is that ? Pakistani Army.
Did they side with Pakistan Army during any conflict in past century ? NO (PA/scouts brought mujahideen with them who stood on kargil heights, no mujahideen arrived from inside IOK)

If kashmiris don't want to live under occupation, then they have to make the move and seriously getting wrapped in pakistani flag coffins is not the way to end occupation. Kashmiris chose to live under Indian occupation by not siding with Pakistani Military. Doesn't need a rocket scientist to figure out whose paying the price today.

Now to your most ridiculous point of Kashmiris tying down IA formations from Punjab and the desert, well didnt happen. India moved BSF only, and increased its numbers in IOK. The regular military formations remained station in Punjab and desert. There were some CPRF units movement also.

As for the pictures, they seem to be mixed of regulars and scouts. The mujahideen that were amongst them were 5% of the total force and mostly were fighting at the front lines in Kargil (as you pointed out ) , do you know why ? Coz they were brought along with PA and scouts. Nothing happened inside IOK and that i have correctly pointed out. So how many convoys, fuel dumps, military HQ's etc became targets from inside IOK ? How many Indian troops were ambushed on the way to kargil from inside IOK ? how many formations were delayed by obstructions on the roads from inside IOK ?

Please take your defensive banter elsewhere and throw your points at someone who has no understanding of military and kashmir issue.

You can accuse me of having an agenda, but its you who needs to open his eyes. Have you heard DG ISPR's speech ? havent yet ? go hear it then ! You will get an idea what I am talking about.

You need a lesson in history mate.
Stop worshiping the army for a starter; if I start writing about the blunders made by the military, many volumes would be written and published. Go and learn a thing or two about what Sardar Ibrahim Khan did to liberate Azad Kashmir while the army sat on it's posterior. You are too quick to point out the mistakes of others but forget that the military lost opportunities in 47 (when it sat on it's lazy bum), in 62(when India was vulnerable) and in 65(Akhnur). Kargil was a disaster doomed to fail, yet fanboys like you present it as a modren Cannae and blame Kashmiris for doing something for which they lacked the capacity. You conveniently missed the 37000 freedom fighters who laid their lives and had drawn Indian military in Kashmir, and you don't even realize the fact that the freedom fighters shifted stretegic balance in our favor. And I have not talked about Siachen blunder and the contract for cold gear awarded to the British firm.

And keep on worshipping the military which is doing badmashi with their own countrymen on a daily basis. The treat us like insects. And they get paid for what they do, no one is doing an Ihsan on us or Kashmiris.

You are a lost cause like other army fanboys. And keep beating the dead horse of 65 while ignoring the blunder at Akhnur.

Bye

(PA/scouts brought mujahideen with them who stood on kargil heights, no mujahideen arrived from inside IOK)

Do you even know what you're talking about? I don't think so.

So it's a useless discussion.

 

[Signalian]

You need a lesson in history mate.
Stop worshiping the army for a starter; if I start writing about the blunders made by the military, many volumes would be written and published. Go and learn a thing or two about what Sardar Ibrahim Khan did to liberate Azad Kashmir while the army sat on it's posterior. You are too quick to point out the mistakes of others but forget that the military lost opportunities in 47 (when it sat on it's lazy bum), in 62(when India was vulnerable) and in 65(Akhnur). Kargil was a disaster doomed to fail, yet fanboys like you present it as a modren Cannae and blame Kashmiris for doing something for which they lacked the capacity. You conveniently missed the 37000 freedom fighters who laid their lives and had drawn Indian military in Kashmir, and you don't even realize the fact that the freedom fighters shifted stretegic balance in our favor. And I have not talked about Siachen blunder and the contract for cold gear awarded to the British firm.

And keep on worshipping the military which is doing badmashi with their own countrymen on a daily basis. The treat us like insects. And they get paid for what they do, no one is doing an Ihsan on us or Kashmiris.

You are a lost cause like other army fanboys. And keep beating the dead horse of 65 while ignoring the blunder at Akhnur.

Bye

^^
This is what comes up at the end when a person doesn't know what he is talking about.

Whether you accept it or not, i know much more than you about Pakistan Military as i have seen it first hand and up close. As for your assumptions regarding wars you mentioned, they are a production of your mind, i have nothing to do with them.

Kashmiris are quiet 11 months of the year, as soon as India starts its mechanisms of tyranny in the 12th month, Kashmiris wake up with Pakistanis like you and then the internet and media starts screaming. This is history lesson for you.

Do you even know what you're talking about? I don't think so.

So it's a useless discussion.

I do, however i am sure you dont

 

[Psychic]

Now coming back to Musharraf; you have so blatantly blamed him for the fate of Kashmir without any knowledge that he kept getting posted in AJK region during all his ranks, especially higher ranks. He kept taking part in SSG Operations in AJK and commanded formations on LOC. At the end of last century, he made a final move to capture peaks in IOK. So before you start commenting on things you dont know about, do some research.

Facts:

1- Mush banned Kashmiri organizations and ended their material support during Parakaram and later cease fire

2- Read Chenab formula instead of glorifying the commando.

3- Mush's history as caption or major or his blunder at kargil is irrelevant to the damage he inflicted on Kashmir cause later on.

I do, however i am sure you dont

It is quite evident when you don't know a thing about four point formula yet claim to be an expert on Kashmir

@Simurgh @Behram Khilji See what's going on

 

[Signalian]

Facts:

1- Mush banned Kashmiri organizations and ended their material support during Parakaram and later cease fire

2- Read Chenab formula instead of glorifying the commando.

3- Mush's history as caption or major or his blunder at kargil is irrelevant to the damage he inflicted on Kashmir cause later on.

FACTS:
1. Kashmiris gave positions of Pakistani SSG during 1965 in Ops Gibraltar.
2. Pakistan started OPs Grandslam to secure its position inside Kahsmir, sacrificed soldiers for soldiers within a month again.
3. 23rd Division in 1971 was making inroads into kashmir, no protests ever came from inside IOK, no help, no asistance during war although Kashmiris knew that pakistan was trying to take Kashmir during the war.
4. 1990's: Even with continuous support of Pakistan, the Kashmiris and mujahideen failed to make any fruiful gains for independence of Kashmir.
5. Kashmiri mujahideen sitting inside Kashmir went absent as soon as Kargil war started. PA had to push mujahideen during its venture onto the peaks along with regulars.

You can see in all of above that Kashmiris DO NOT align with Pakistan and Pakistan Army, and can never do anything on their own. They had the full support in 1990's, they gained nothing. Musharraf did the right thing by stopping support, he had seen that kashmiris cannot do anything even with assistance from Pakistan as he had been posted in AJK on senior commands. I also believe that Pakistan has done more than enough for Kashmiris since 1947, its the Kashmiris who cannot fight on their own and its laughable if Kashmiris blame Pakistan or PA for not getting independence from India.

It is quite evident when you don't know a thing about four point formula yet claim to be an expert on Kashmir

@Simurgh @Behram Khilji See what's going on

call all the help mate, and tag as many members as you can.

The fact is that Kashmiris do not stand up to India and do not make a noise unless India empowers its iron fist on them. They are living their lives normally at other times.

 

[Psychic]

FACTS:
1. Kashmiris gave positions of Pakistani SSG during 1965 in Ops Gibraltar.
2. Pakistan started OPs Grandslam to secure its position inside Kahsmir, sacrificed soldiers for soldiers within a month again.
3. 23rd Division in 1971 was making inroads into kashmir, no protests ever came from inside IOK, no help, no asistance during war although Kashmiris knew that pakistan was trying to take Kashmir during the war.
4. 1990's: Even with continuous support of Pakistan, the Kashmiris and mujahideen failed to make any fruiful gains for independence of Kashmir.
5. Kashmiri mujahideen sitting inside Kashmir went absent as soon as Kargil war started. PA had to push mujahideen during its venture onto the peaks along with regulars.

You can see in all of above that Kashmiris DO NOT align with Pakistan and Pakistan Army, and can never do anything on their own. They had the full support in 1990's, they gained nothing. Musharraf did the right thing by stopping support, he had seen that kashmiris cannot do anything even with assistance from Pakistan as he had been posted in AJK on senior commands. I also believe that Pakistan has done more than enough for Kashmiris since 1947, its the Kashmiris who cannot fight on their own and its laughable if Kashmiris blame Pakistan or PA for not getting independence from India.

1- I know about 65. Major Munawwar didn't secure Rajuri without local help. The team in Poonch was also successful. And never did I ever defended the Kashmiris for 65, so save your bhashan for someone else.
2- Quite convenient to ignore the blunder of Akhnur and blame it on Kashmiris. It was about landmass, not Kashmiris by then. We had hired the army to fight and take back our land, we didn't pay salary to Kashmiris to fight for us.
3- The attack by infiltration in Poonch sector failed due to poor logistic planning. You can blame Kashmiris for that as if their protests would've done anything. Armed struggle started after Maqbool Bhat was hanged in 87.
4- They failed, lets blame them. We failed in 47, 65, 71, 84, 99 it was due to (excuses)
5- BS

And stop reading official accounts.

You can see in all of above that Kashmiris DO NOT align with Pakistan and Pakistan Army, and can never do anything on their own. They had the full support in 1990's, they gained nothing. Musharraf did the right thing by stopping support, he had seen that kashmiris cannot do anything even with assistance from Pakistan as he had been posted in AJK on senior commands. I also believe that Pakistan has done more than enough for Kashmiris since 1947, its the Kashmiris who cannot fight on their own and its laughable if Kashmiris blame Pakistan or PA for not getting independence from India.

They were inflicting a cost of occupation.

And don't tell us they were doing nothing. Army did nothing when Indian commandoes beheaded 11 civillians in AJK, it were the mujahideen who retaliated swiftly. And freedom movements through guerilla war are not like your seventeen days fruitless wars, they are a long process which is evident to any student of history.

The fact is that Kashmiris do not stand up to India and do not make a noise unless India empowers its iron fist on them. They are living their lives normally at other times.

The fact is that you were unaware of four point formula when we talked the last time, yet you potray yourself as an expert on Kashmir.

 

[Signalian]

1- I know about 65. Major Munawwar didn't secure Rajuri without local help. The team in Poonch was also successful. And never did I ever defended the Kashmiris for 65, so save your bhashan for someone else.
2- Quite convenient to ignore the blunder of Akhnur and blame it on Kashmiris. It was about landmass, not Kashmiris by then. We had hired the army to fight and take back our land, we didn't pay salary to Kashmiris to fight for us.
3- The attack by infiltration in Poonch sector failed due to poor logistic planning. You can blame Kashmiris for that as if their protests would've done anything. Armed struggle started after Maqbool Bhat was hanged in 87.
4- They failed, lets blame them. We failed in 47, 65, 71, 84, 99 it was due to (excuses)
5- BS

And stop reading official accounts.

They were inflicting a cost of occupation.

And don't tell us they were doing nothing. Army did nothing when Indian commandoes beheaded 11 civillians in AJK, it were the mujahideen who retaliated swiftly. And freedom movements through guerilla war are not like your seventeen days fruitless wars, they are a long process which is evident to any student of history.

I can see that your biased approach is not helping you grasp the point being conveyed to you.

No one is blaming the failure of Grand Slam or Kargil on kashmiris. Get this inside your skull.
If Kashmiris want independence from India, these were good opportunities. Heck, even 1990's was golden opportunity where a lot of sacrifices by kashmiris but what was gained ? Nothing. BSF was upgraded and its formation size increased.

Blaming Pakistan and its Army or counting failures will not get you anywhere. Lets get down to facts again:

1. Kashmiris were given help, aided, Pakistan fought 1948 and 1965 wars primarily for Kashmir. You have to realize that Pakistan has sacrificed soldiers and sent arms and support to Kashmir, but its the KASHMIRIS who then had to take on the roads and streets and mountains for their independence. Wheres the result with support from Pakistan ? Nothing. Nil.

2. If Kashmiri mujahideen are so glorified as you claim then why has the struggle dwindled down after Musharraf stopped support ? coz Kashmiris cannot pursue their independence goals without Pakistan's support. Actually, with Pakistan's assistance they had a chance in 1990's, without support from Pakistan the results are even more fragile. So Basically comes down to the same point that - On their own Kashmiris cannot do anything.

3. Why is it so that Kashmiris are not on the roads all the year round ? why does the Kashmir matter take to the skies when India clenches its claws ? Why is the voice not raised through out the year from inside IOK ? Is the voice inside IOK only raised by showing tortured bodies on media ?

Its evident now from your posts, that the struggle of freedom for Kashmir for independence is solely dependent upon Pakistan's support and that Kashmiris on their own do not struggle for independence throughout the year.

 

[Signalian]

@Psychic

FYI, my talk was based on this also.

Faisal Aijaz: What are your views on the liberation of Kashmir ?

Col (R) Abid: I have been part of covert activities in Kashmir and also held several reconnaissance missions when we were disguised as Kashmiri Mujahideen and during those days on several occasions, we used to take part in riots & public protests with our Mujahideen forces against Indian Army. It is a known fact that one day Insha’Allah we will liberate Kashmir & Kashmiri’s from Indian resistance.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/interview-with-a-former-ssg-colonel.415100/

 

[Psychic]

@Psychic

FYI, my talk was based on this also.

Faisal Aijaz: What are your views on the liberation of Kashmir ?

Col (R) Abid: I have been part of covert activities in Kashmir and also held several reconnaissance missions when we were disguised as Kashmiri Mujahideen and during those days on several occasions, we used to take part in riots & public protests with our Mujahideen forces against Indian Army. It is a known fact that one day Insha’Allah we will liberate Kashmir & Kashmiri’s from Indian resistance.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/interview-with-a-former-ssg-colonel.415100/

When did I dispute the events of operation Gibralter?