Mid-life upgrade for F22P

[Imran Khan]

yaar there were many issues with the F22P when inducted, safety being one of them so this makes sense. we can call it upgrades instead of mid-life upgrades.

Ufffff main ne to socha tha aik bar le li new frigates to zindgi ke 20 25 saal chain se guzry gay sir

 

[Rafi]

WAS.

Thank you for your input but are we going for MR SAMS in the same position or there is a plug being put in. Secondly are we going mix and match on sensors like the Augusta 90s or sticking withChinese products. I know from previous posts that PN experience with combination products has not been a good one. So have things changed or are they going for a single vendor providing upgrades.
Wassalam
A

Plug, where the current HQ7 launcher is, most of the equipment will be Chinese IMO, with some other input.

@Rafi
What options even exist? Chinese, south african, russian etc. I definitely think a VLS can be added to the F-22P as far as space is concerned the only issues would cost and how much PN is willing to spend. The biggest question is if they do it for cheap or they are willing to spend to get more survivability. Either way i think a reasonable refit could be had but it involves much better cooperation with non-traditional defense suppliers (namely Russia and or S korea).

The Cheap:
As i have stated above, i would upgrade the sensors to something far more robust, specifically around the Smart Smk2. Then i would replace the Type 730s and the HQ-7A with Pantsir-ME. This will replace the 2 CIWS and 8 short range (15km) missiles with 3 CIWS with 2 guns each (6 total) and a total of 24 short/med range (20km) SAMs. I dont believe this upgrade would be cost prohibitive nor do i think the Russians would be averse to it.

Expensive:
I would replace the HQ-7A with a VLS (12-16 cell) this can be done by keeping the forward deck the HQ-7A currently sits on and putting most of the venting and duct work in that section.
It would essentially be the exact refit the Russians did for Steregushchiy class corvettes when the replaced the orginal Kashtan CIWS with a 12 cell VLS for 9M96E2/PolimentRedut missiles (which if im not mistaken are quad-packed)

(Steregushchiy class with Kashtan CIWS)

(Steregushchiy class with 12 cell VLS which is slightly raised from the original deck which the Kashtan sat upon).

These ships are smaller than F-22P (1800t vs 2500t standard load or 2200t vs 3100t full load) and still carry 8 kh-35 AShM and 12 cell vls (with what appears to be a quad packed 9m96e2 125km range missile). So the similar upgrade is possible for the F-22P ships given the similar forward deck and size of Kashtan vs Hq-7A.

The question is which vls and which missile... The options could include S. AFRICAN Umkhonto EIR (which has a 30km range), the Chinese HQ-16, The KS-SAM/K-SAAM/Cheolmae-2/Cheongung from SKorea/Russia, and the Russian Poliment Redut missile (9M96E/E2).

Personally i think the best option would be the Poliment Redut is the best option and given the relative size to range/altitude ratio. It will give PN fleet level coverage with 125km range and altitudes of 50km (35km for ballistic missiles) and they are supposed able to be to be quad-packed.

(9M96E and 9M96E2 on far right show quad packed setup). It would give the F-22P 48 (if 12 cells) to 64 (16 cells) missiles with 125km range. With that many missiles you could theoretically trade some of the vls tube SAMs for LACM or antisub rockets if the vls tubes are long enough. Or put ur AShM in the VLS tubes and replace the current C802A Launchers with 2x3 Harba/Babur 2/3 launchers and put 8 cells in the vls with C802A. Then i would add 6 HQ-10 on the Type 730s for 12 PDMs for an extra layer of protection.

That being said the 9M96E (40km range) and the KS-SAM co-developed with Russia based on 9M96E and also has a range of 40km would all be acceptable if the 9M96E2 was not available.

HQ16 is the most likely option, in fact the vessel was designed for that purpose. But Russian systems could be also considered, the PN has various configurations and based on cost will go forward.

 

[Tank131]

What i will say is that i think the PN made a mistake going for Milgem. These Russian steregushchiy corvettes seem far more capable and are far less expensive. Algeria paid $150M each for the Tigr corvettes which are the Kashtan variant. I would imagine that the cose of the VLS and missiles would not have been more than $25-35M per ship. That brings them to be $65-75M less per ship than MILGEM. The only benefits to the MILGEM was that PN acquired design/redesign rights to the ship and can is allowed to further develop it. I have been very impressed with some of the newer frigate and corvette designs the Russians have developed and they are backing them up with some highly capable weapons systems.

Can the quad-packed missiles be operated/targeted independently, or are they fired in a salvo?

Both

 

[Tamiyah]

What i will say is that i think the PN made a mistake going for Milgem. These Russian steregushchiy corvettes seem far more capable and are far less expensive. Algeria paid $150M each for the Tigr corvettes which are the Kashtan variant. I would imagine that the cose of the VLS and missiles would not have been more than $25-35M per ship. That brings them to be $65-75M less per ship than MILGEM. The only benefits to the MILGEM was that PN acquired design/redesign rights to the ship and can is allowed to further develop it. I have been very impressed with some of the newer frigate and corvette designs the Russians have developed and they are backing them up with some highly capable weapons systems.


Both

We needed instant replacement for our old ships and at that time our relation with RUSSIA was not that great. Even today we can not say that Russia "will" sell us military equipment.

 

[Tank131]

We needed instant replacement for our old ships and at that time our relation with RUSSIA was not that great. Even today we can not say that Russia "will" sell us military equipment.

Milgem deal was signed within the last 2 years. The MILGEM deal outside of the the acquisition of rights to the design, is for ships with very specific (ie sub hunting) role. They will likely not servive a pitched battle with IN without support of the Type 054A covering it because of its minimal sepf protection capabilities. Its biggest defense will be if it has Harba it can outrange IN ships. They should have gone for I-class or LF-2400 varient with vls/SAMs to be picked later. As for instant replacement, they are the last ship that could give instant replacement because Turkey can build them with enough speed. If Instant replacement was needed they could have for chinese vessels or approached russia too. Without asking the answer is no. Pakistans issues with procurement at this stage are more financial (even u214 had been approved but finances weren't there).

 

[Corsair255]

Rumor says, a joint investigation team composed of HAVELSAN and ASELSAN engineers and experts from Turkey will go to Pakistan. They are said to carry out preliminary surveying activities onboard F22Ps for a possible modernization.

 

[Philip the Arab]

Rumor says, a joint investigation team composed of HAVELSAN and ASELSAN engineers and experts from Turkey will go to Pakistan. They are said to carry out preliminary surveying activities onboard F22Ps for a possible modernization.

Does China give access to Turkey for source codes even? Wouldn't you need to be able to integrate Chinese, and Turkish tech together?

 

[ARMalik]

Does China give access to Turkey for source codes even? Wouldn't you need to be able to integrate Chinese, and Turkish tech together?

I don't see any issue as long as F-22P was design per Military Standards such as MIL-STD-1397 and other relevant MIL-STD, and the weapons manufacturers follow it, then any weapon or new systems can be integrated on "Plug and Play" basis. The Chinese have equivalent to MIL-STD, and the Turks follow US standards.

 

[Philip the Arab]

I don't see any issue as long as F-22P was design per Military Standards such as MIL-STD-1397 and other relevant MIL-STD, and the weapons manufacturers follow it, then any weapon or new systems can be integrated on "Plug and Play" basis. The Chinese have equivalent to MIL-STD, and the Turks follow US standards.

Maybe...

 

[Tank131]

Integration of the tech will be dependent on the types of upgrades. If china doesn't give access to the FCS then you will likely change the system and surveillance aparati, but frankly all of that needs to be done anyways. F-22p needs better radars and better combat management anyways, so if you are going to such lengths, you may as well go the whole way and upgrade the weapons. Basically the only thing chinese will be structural and the engines.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Integration of the tech will be dependent on the types of upgrades. If china doesn't give access to the FCS then you will likely change the system and surveillance aparati, but frankly all of that needs to be done anyways. F-22p needs better radars and better combat management anyways, so if you are going to such lengths, you may as well go the whole way and upgrade the weapons. Basically the only thing chinese will be structural and the engines.

In the future, The command systems and fire control systems shall all be from Pakistan.

 

[Tank131]

In the future, The command systems and fire control systems shall all be from Pakistan.

How far into the future are we talking?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

How far into the future are we talking?

2019.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

2019.

Pardon me Sir, but 2019 is about to end next month.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Pardon me Sir, but 2019 is about to end next month.

That means something is already in place.