Mid-life upgrade for F22P

[ARMalik]

Why not China?

I think PN was really impressed with the way Turks upgraded Agosta Subs. These subs had certain French propriety systems which could not be upgraded without input from the French. And PN did not want French involved. However, PN approached the Turks who were able to standardized internal data bus and integration systems. The issues with F-22P were fairly similar, hence, it was only logical for the PN to choose the Turks to resolve it.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

I think PN was really impressed with the way Turks upgraded Agosta Subs. These subs had certain French propriety systems which could not be upgraded without input from the French. And PN did not want French involved. However, PN approached the Turks who were able to standardized internal data bus and integration systems. The issues with F-22P were fairly similar, hence, it was only logical for the PN to choose the Turks to resolve it.

Upgration is complete of subs?

 

[ARMalik]

Upgration is complete of subs?

One is complete and undergoing testing. Second one is ready to go for upgrades in Pakistan. 3rd one to follow. I should have used the word 'Sub' not 'subs' in the above post.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

One is complete and undergoing testing. Second one is ready to go for upgrades in Pakistan. 3rd one to follow. I should have used the word 'Sub' not 'subs' in the above post.

So upgradation is happening in Pakistan?

 

[ARMalik]

So upgradation is happening in Pakistan?

2nd Sub in 2021 in Pakistan. 3rd one to follow only if the PN upgrades the contract which is highly likely.

 

[Pinnacle]

Are all three agostas equipped with AIP?

 

[araz]

I think PN was really impressed with the way Turks upgraded Agosta Subs. These subs had certain French propriety systems which could not be upgraded without input from the French. And PN did not want French involved. However, PN approached the Turks who were able to standardized internal data bus and integration systems. The issues with F-22P were fairly similar, hence, it was only logical for the PN to choose the Turks to resolve it.

Thank you very much for a very logical post. I men no disrespect but want to ask whether this is based on your own assumptions or isit based on information or knowledge you have or been provided.
I think if we are voing down this route then we should employ a coulle of our local engineers to learn about the process. We can get one or two done in Turkey but should also try and do a couple with Turkish/Chinese help. This would ensure Transfer of knowledge which can come in handy at later stages. We need to move away from being a customer to being an innovator and provider of services.
It seems PN is progressing in this direction. We have made slivht changes in our FACs and have provressed on to local integration of weapons. I know the numbers of platforms are small so we do need to think of economy of scale but we simply need to move out of this stage nd move on to the next one.

A

 

[ARMalik]

Thank you very much for a very logical post. I men no disrespect but want to ask whether this is based on your own assumptions or isit based on information or knowledge you have or been provided.
I think if we are voing down this route then we should employ a coulle of our local engineers to learn about the process. We can get one or two done in Turkey but should also try and do a couple with Turkish/Chinese help. This would ensure Transfer of knowledge which can come in handy at later stages. We need to move away from being a customer to being an innovator and provider of services.
It seems PN is progressing in this direction. We have made slivht changes in our FACs and have provressed on to local integration of weapons. I know the numbers of platforms are small so we do need to think of economy of scale but we simply need to move out of this stage nd move on to the next one.

A

I would say it is more of industry knowledge. The problems faced by PN are not unique to PN, in fact, pretty much every Navy which depends on "imports" has similar problems. The big players like US, France, Russia, etc have always tried to "Lock-in" customers. The main way of doing this is via "Propriety" software and hardware. Due to this, customers (example, Pakistan, India, etc) are literally held hostage by the providers as no one else has access their "Propriety" stuff.

But in the last 10 years but specially in the last 5-years, "Open Protocols" communications along with advancements in 'Controls' have paved the way for 'Plug and Play'. A lot of hardware is now off the shelf. No longer a "Propriety" software can hold you hostage as these days there is software based on open protocol which can literally sit on top of any existing software and can be customized to do anything.

You would notice that navies of Turkey and Pakistan now have in-house "software" solutions or at least they are going in that direction. And that is to enhance "Security" and the ability to "Customize" their software, although there is nothing wrong with Off-the Self software.

 

[araz]

I would say it is more of industry knowledge. The problems faced by PN are not unique to PN, in fact, pretty much every Navy which depends on "imports" has similar problems. The big players like US, France, Russia, etc have always tried to "Lock-in" customers. The main way of doing this is via "Propriety" software and hardware. Due to this, customers (example, Pakistan, India, etc) are literally held hostage by the providers as no one else has access their "Propriety" stuff.

But in the last 10 years but specially in the last 5-years, "Open Protocols" communications along with advancements in 'Controls' have paved the way for 'Plug and Play'. A lot of hardware is now off the shelf. No longer a "Propriety" software can hold you hostage as these days there is software based on open protocol which can literally sit on top of any existing software and can be customized to do anything.

You would notice that navies of Turkey and Pakistan now have in-house "software" solutions or at least they are going in that direction. And that is to enhance "Security" and the ability to "Customize" their software, although there is nothing wrong with Off-the Self software.

Thank you for your input. Much appreciated.
Kind regards
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think PN was really impressed with the way Turks upgraded Agosta Subs. These subs had certain French propriety systems which could not be upgraded without input from the French. And PN did not want French involved. However, PN approached the Turks who were able to standardized internal data bus and integration systems. The issues with F-22P were fairly similar, hence, it was only logical for the PN to choose the Turks to resolve it.

It's possible the jury is still out on who will get the F-22P upgrade program. Perhaps the PN is inviting the Turks and Chinese to both see the ships, meet with the PN to discuss requirements, and then see their respective packages.

 

[Tank131]

It's possible the jury is still out on who will get the F-22P upgrade program. Perhaps the PN is inviting the Turks and Chinese to both see the ships, meet with the PN to discuss requirements, and then see their respective packages.

My suspicion is a lot will depend on the final package and quality of the Jinnah class frigates vs type 054A. If PN is satisfied with the weaponry and electronics of 054A then it may stick with china. If not, it will go with turks as long as the weapons package (specifically the SAM) is of quality along with the electronics.

I dont see the first F-22P undergoing refitt until all the 4 Jinnah and 4 Type 054A are delivered (due to the acuity of numbers faced by PN).

 

[YeBeWarned]

I think PN was really impressed with the way Turks upgraded Agosta Subs. These subs had certain French propriety systems which could not be upgraded without input from the French. And PN did not want French involved. However, PN approached the Turks who were able to standardized internal data bus and integration systems. The issues with F-22P were fairly similar, hence, it was only logical for the PN to choose the Turks to resolve it.

Adding to this, One more reason can be the secured communication and ease of weapon/system integratibility , we already have 4 Turkish ships on Order with a Turkish Genesis system on board, if we take the people who mention that type 54 works as flag ships than them operating with 2 supportive ships such as F-22 and Milgem ( with simialr System ) make sense .

 

[Bratva]

Thank you very much for a very logical post. I men no disrespect but want to ask whether this is based on your own assumptions or isit based on information or knowledge you have or been provided.
I think if we are voing down this route then we should employ a coulle of our local engineers to learn about the process. We can get one or two done in Turkey but should also try and do a couple with Turkish/Chinese help. This would ensure Transfer of knowledge which can come in handy at later stages. We need to move away from being a customer to being an innovator and provider of services.
It seems PN is progressing in this direction. We have made slivht changes in our FACs and have provressed on to local integration of weapons. I know the numbers of platforms are small so we do need to think of economy of scale but we simply need to move out of this stage nd move on to the next one.

A

Adding on top of @ARMalik excellent Post. The major hurdle for PN Submarines were Command and Control systems of Agosta. PN couldn't integrate anything in A-90 without french permission, that too French would have to come and modify the propriety C&C systems to let Pakistan integrate the weapons of it's choice. What Pakistan did to integrate Babur-III with agosta is an open secret. There is a reason Pakistan is not showing Babur III getting fired from a sub. Because whatever changes they have done, done without the authorization of France

Back in DIMDEX-2018, When I discussed Agosta Submarine up-gradation program with Turkish Officials who were involved in the bidding process when PN tendered out the Submarine up-gradation process. They told me they were chosen because they had the capability to replace all the French proprietary systems with turkish one and they were willing to let Pakistan integrate the weapons of its own choice into submarine once Turkish systems are in the Agosta without coordinating with France at all. . That is why they won the bid despite of French taking part in the actual process and turkish outbidding OEM.

When I Asked Will PN be able to integrate strategic and conventional weapons in their submarines once the upgradation completes and Turks will not deny Pakistan like France will. Turkish officials did say that Turkish C&C systems are proprietary and they will be the sole proprietor to do the integrations due to proprietary nature of systems If and when Turkish MoD gives green light and Although Request will have to go through the MoD Turkish, But due to the nature of Pakistan and Turkish relations. We will never ever deny any Pakistani request of integrating any kind of weapons

That was back in 2018. Now the Relations has attained a new height. Where by Turkish will be able to share the source codes of their C&C systems now.

DIMDEX 2020 is 3 months away. It will be interesting this time to hear Turkish views on this subject once again.

 

[araz]

Adding on top of @ARMalik excellent Post. The major hurdle for PN Submarines were Command and Control systems of Agosta. PN couldn't integrate anything in A-90 without french permission, that too French would have to come and modify the propriety C&C systems to let Pakistan integrate the weapons of it's choice. What Pakistan did to integrate Babur-III with agosta is an open secret. There is a reason Pakistan is not showing Babur III getting fired from a sub. Because whatever changes they have done, done without the authorization of France

Back in DIMDEX-2018, When I discussed Agosta Submarine up-gradation program with Turkish Officials who were involved in the bidding process when PN tendered out the Submarine up-gradation process. They told me they were chosen because they had the capability to replace all the French proprietary systems with turkish one and they were willing to let Pakistan integrate the weapons of its own choice into submarine once Turkish systems are in the Agosta without coordinating with France at all. . That is why they won the bid despite of French taking part in the actual process and turkish outbidding OEM.

When I Asked Will PN be able to integrate strategic and conventional weapons in their submarines once the upgradation completes and Turks will not deny Pakistan like France will. Turkish officials did say that Turkish C&C systems are proprietary and they will be the sole proprietor to do the integrations due to proprietary nature of systems If and when Turkish MoD gives green light and Although Request will have to go through the MoD Turkish, But due to the nature of Pakistan and Turkish relations. We will never ever deny any Pakistani request of integrating any kind of weapons

That was back in 2018. Now the Relations has attained a new height. Where by Turkish will be able to share the source codes of their C&C systems now.

DIMDEX 2020 is 3 months away. It will be interesting this time to hear Turkish views on this subject once again.

@Bilal Khan 777 mentioned that PN has developed and will be integrating its own command and control system on its ship. One wonders if that is the case why this could not have been used on the 90Bs as well. I dont know the technicalities therefore am asking.
A

It's possible the jury is still out on who will get the F-22P upgrade program. Perhaps the PN is inviting the Turks and Chinese to both see the ships, meet with the PN to discuss requirements, and then see their respective packages.

Where there is competition there are opportunities for offsets and negotiations on price. So not a bad strategy.
A

 

[Bratva]

@Bilal Khan 777 mentioned that PN has developed and will be integrating its own command and control system on its ship. One wonders if that is the case why this could not have been used on the 90Bs as well. I dont know the technicalities therefore am asking.
A


Where there is competition there are opportunities for offsets and negotiations on price. So not a bad strategy.
A

Changing Command & Control systems of a submarine is a major activity. You have to take it out of water. Put it on dry dock. Then change all the hardware and software. Akin to what Turkish are doing to A-90

Check this Link.. Pakistan deployed C4I On it's surface and air-platforms. But not on Sub surface platforms which I hope with this turkish upgrade coupled with VLF stations Pakistan constructed some years ago to communicate with submarines, we may see Pakistan deploying their own systems into Submarines as well


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/milsoft-nixs-c4i-for-pakistan-navy.542617/