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Mi-17 down, 26 troops martyred

I am sorry to say - it is the captains responsibility for this mistake. no talk of 'pressure' can absolve them of this fatal mistake.



Hi,

I don't mean to be disrespectable---but talk is cheap. That is what happens in real life.

Read Qsaarks post and attached link----russia didn't blame the pilot in chechnya----but put the lt col plus the person in charge on trial. Now did it end with a firing squad---I don't know---but knowing russia---it maynot be far fetched.
 
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i cannot divulge further on this topic as it would entail revealing of classified info, but a few clarifications:

There are two things in an Army or atleast in Pakistan Army that cannot be challenged:
1. The report, excuse/recommendation written by a Doctor (Specialist Doc, not GD) for a soldier i.e. if the doc says that i am not supposed to run for one month with combat load, not even an General can over-rule that.

2. If a pilot (Army Aviation) says one of the following:
a. i cant fly because i am not feeling well due to a numbers of reasons, an example can be if he has not taken an adequate rest last night etc etc (i guess every airline do that, over fatigued pilot is a killer)

b. He says that the weather is not suitable for flying according to him i.e if the weather is not perfect for flying the choice is left with the pilot to fly or not. If he says ok i'll go, he goes, if not than no one can force him, no one means NO ONE. But this wouldnt mean that the basics of bad weather vs flying are ignored, a pilot may be ready to fly a dangerous mission but if it is felt that he shouldnt fly the pilot cant challenge that also.

c. Lastly if a pilot says that he will not even carry a KG more, he simply won't! i have seen generals beings said, sorry sir, you cant go as i already have my bags full!! And senior officers do abide!

Now the above mentioned are some issues which no one likes to argue about. i will say a bit more about 2.c.; i have seen pilots who have taken risks to overload the craft (keeping in view his safe side ofcourse) or fly in bad weather just for the sake of men. Now many would say, how can he violate the SOPs, the rules and blah blah, yes they shouldnt, but again, as i have mentioned at many occasions that we are not part of NATO yet, so we cant afford the same luxuries.

Keep yourself at the place of that pilots who knows that if i didnt take this man with him from a Post in Siachen it would be his 5 month on that post as no other trip is being planned atleast for the next one month, BTW the Army has said that no one would stay at that 'hostile', harsh, and unforgiving post for more than one and a half month, But say thanks to the weather, danger of slides/avalanches (as the period when these are occurring frequently is on), restrictions on movements due to various reasons to include enemy fire etc etc that no movement could have taken place. Now if the Army has said that no one would stay at this post for more than 45 days, there is a guud reason behind it, as this particular post would adversely and severely affect the soldier, mentally and psychologically, not to mention the physical setbacks he would suffer, as compared to any other 'normal' Post. Mind it not every post has such 'number of days' restrictions! Now here comes the human factor.

Coming back to the point at hand, the report also mentions that the road move was restricted and not many heli sorties were available due to the fact that we are yet to equate ourselves with the Americans. i am sure people would be coming back from leave or on postings and the COs and men fighting ahead must be anxiously waiting for new men, the pilot knew this and then, you all know what happened.

Though i am NOT yet over-ruling the fact that a technical fault might have occurred!
And for the enemy action...well we should take some Buckaroo Coffee and think! Not one news report actually suggests that the chopper was brought down by fire, except that; 'reportedly, the terrorists have claimed that they have brought down the heli'! i wonder why would it take them 6 hours to talk to Geo news to make this claim.

Well without getting carried away, yes the heli was overloaded, but NOT TOO overloaded to bring down the heli, and BTW, overloading not always bring down flying machines.

Now if it was due to someones fault, may the justice be served!
End of discussion, thankyou all for participating.
 
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ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2009

Jane's Defence Weekly

Pakistani Mi-17 crashes with heavy loss of life

Gareth Jennings Jane's Aviation Desk Editor - London

A Pakistan Army Mil Mi-17 'Hip' transport helicopter that crashed in the tribal areas of the northwest of the country on 3 July was brought down by a technical malfunction, according to Pakistani security officials.

A Pakistani military spokesman told Jane's he was unable to comment on local reports that up to 41 people had died in the crash and that the aircraft may have come down because of overloading, as claimed by sections of the Pakistani press. The army's public information service had initially put the death toll at 26.

The helicopter crashed in the Orakzai tribal agency, having set out from Parachinar in the Kurram agency en route to Peshawar. There has been an upswing in violence in both Orakzai and Kurram in recent weeks, although the army dismissed Taliban claims that the aircraft had been shot down.

As well as the Mi-17, the Pakistan armed forces operate a variety of rotary-winged platforms, including the Agusta-Bell AB 205A-1, Bell UH-1H and 412 'Huey' and the French Aerospatiale SA 330J Puma.

The Soviet-era Mi-17 (a derivative of the Mi-8) made its first flight in 1975 and has seen service with more than 60 countries.
 
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Hi,

I don't mean to be disrespectable---but talk is cheap. That is what happens in real life.

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I am sorry - I stand by my statement. if a pilot overloads his aircraft it is either his inexperience or overconfidence. Either speaks about a poor process in place.

What happens if airlines started behaving in the same way?

Many pilots make bad choices - trying to fly home in bad weather, fly wiht more load thanperimissable. they call it "Get Home-ities"

This is the reason that transport and heli pilots are doubly careful. if they screw up its notjust their lives at stake
 
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End of discussion, thankyou all for participating.
Congratulations Xeric. Finally you got promoted to the moderator rank. I guess they forgot to put moderator insignia underneath your avatar.
 
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Congratulations Xeric. Finally you got promoted to the moderator rank. I guess they forgot to put moderator insignia underneath your avatar.

Mod who me?
Lolzz..they dont want to get the member strength here on PDF down to 1000.

BTW, i said the discussion is finished from my end, and i have all my right to say that, if you missed it sir!
 
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I am sorry - I stand by my statement. if a pilot overloads his aircraft it is either his inexperience or overconfidence. Either speaks about a poor process in place.

What happens if airlines started behaving in the same way?

Many pilots make bad choices - trying to fly home in bad weather, fly wiht more load thanperimissable. they call it "Get Home-ities"

This is the reason that transport and heli pilots are doubly careful. if they screw up its notjust their lives at stake


Hi,

It happens more often than we would want to beleive---overloaded passenger planes---I gave the example of the fokker crash in multan---then another example in bahamas---there may be so many others as well----just a few days ago---yemen airways plane went down---the airbus was deemed not worthy to fly on european routes---but flew in africa---didn't the pilot know about it---off course he did---and may have complained as well---you know what happens to complainers----they get fired---when you have a family and little children at home----you learn to take it as it comes.

In my everyday life in car sales---I have customers drive rash on test drives---sometimes test driving cars at 80-90-100 miles an hour on the freeways---how often do we tell them not to---but do they stop---heck no---averages Joe's go out of their way to drive outrageous---now do the sales staff call 911---no they don't---out of fear of losing their jobs---. They can call 911---and have the customer arrested for unsafe driving and ticketed---the cops would love to do that.

It is always a 'dare you' call to the pilot---damned if he does it and damned if he doesnot.

I commend the russians for taking appropriate actions against the senior staff.
 
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Pakistan Army Web Portal

Last Flight of Night Stalkers

Colonel Arshad Amin

MI-17 had been hauling troops. rations. medicines and life saving equipment for men deployed at isolated places. Having burnt enough fuel helicopter could carry more load than the available seats. Passengers were many but only lucky ones could get seats, still few occupied floor for their last journey to Peshawar Havildar Ali Ashgar punched engines for startup under keen eves of Captain Sohail Akbar and ever observant co-pilot Captain Khurram Shezad. Havildar Hazrat Hussain, the crew chief and Asif; the scanner were standing outside with their thumbs up to assist starting, not knowing, this might be their last thumbs up signal to any helicopter. Rotors moved slowly, gathered momentum and helicopter lifted off slowly to its eternal journey.

Crew of the helicopter had a tough day. They had planned to be at Peshawar before sunset with all aboard for a well deserved free evening. With Peshawar in sight, just nineteen miles away, the crew initiated a descend. This was the time when everything went out of control. Helicopter wavered; producing strange noises, unmanageable by the crew and went down with all its passengers and crew. Smoke rose, ashes burnt till the time troops on ground could reach them. They were too late to rescue anyone. A strong troop of officers and men had gone down in the line of duty.

Crew of the helicopter was a strange combination of men of substance. Captain Sohail Akbar who hailed from Bahawalpur was an ever volunteer to be assigned tasks once many opted for a day off. He was from that rare breed of pilots who would extend their tenure of duty in anticipation of operations, thinking that new comer might not be familiar with ground situation. A month back, when he was committed in an extensive operational flying, he received a mission of air dropping the officers and men of Special Services Group (SSG) in a nearby drop zone. He kept sipping water and remained glued to his seat in cockpit till he had burnt all the fuel and last man had done his jump. Such was his dedication to flying that he carried alongwith him.

Captain Khurram Shezad had just bought a piece of land in his native village Chak No 247 EB in which he is buried now. A silent, composed young man who ardently went for flying; is still cherished by his colleagues and officers of Punjab Regiment where he was commissioned. His father sat by his grave recalling all appointments with heart surgeons in Rawalpindi that his son would never miss. His mother still waits for call on her cellular phone which her son would make despite a day’s tiring flying. He left his whole village proud and in return the indebted villagers have decided to name their village after Khurram Shezad.

Havildar Ali Asghar was not flying in his unit at the time of his Shahadat. He had gone on extended tenure of duty in operational area. He was such a capable flight engineer that every pilot would desire him to be in the cockpit. He went to his home after a long awaited leave not on his feet but on the shoulders of his brethrens in arms, He is buried in Kandiaro (Sindh) under asylum of Shah Bhitai; making him proud being such a dedicated and brave son of the soil.

Havildar Hazrat Hussain and Havildar Asif were a set of dedicated men in the rear of the helicopter. So alert they were to developing situations around helicopter that captain of the helicopter could literally close his eyes and land in demanding situations. They had been together for night flying, in joint exercises, in operations and under fire. They went together with their favourite steed that they had been nursing for years in Army Aviation.

These great men, matchless heroes and valiant Shuhada have set great examples to be followed. We are proud of them.

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This is very sad news. My deepest sympathies to the families and friends of this fine men and may they rest in peace.

I've said it before and I'll say it again-helicopters are flying monstrosities and even those in perfect condition and brand new have always struck me as a crap-shoot to climb aboard.

EVERY single flight in a helicopter was one were I silently thanked the good Lord for seeing me safely through. These pilots of any country are some of the bravest souls that walk this planet.

God bless them all and hold their souls in peaceful repose...

Present Arms!:pakistan:
 
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This is very sad news. My deepest sympathies to the families and friends of this fine men and may they rest in peace.

I've said it before and I'll say it again-helicopters are flying monstrosities and even those in perfect condition and brand new have always struck me as a crap-shoot to climb aboard.

EVERY single flight in a helicopter was one were I silently thanked the good Lord for seeing me safely through. These pilots of any country are some of the bravest souls that walk this planet.

God bless them all and hold their souls in peaceful repose...

Present Arms!:pakistan:

this incident happened during the Swat ops a few weeks back!
 
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You're correct and I'm sort of embarassed for not reading more closely.

Still, the sympathies offered aren't gratuitous if belated. Forgive me for not paying closer attention previously.
 
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You're correct and I'm sort of embarassed for not reading more closely.

Still, the sympathies offered aren't gratuitous if belated. Forgive me for not paying closer attention previously.

no probs mate!
 
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In'a Lillah -e- wa In'a Eleh'e Rajeoon.

Request:

1 time : Surah Al Fateh'a , 3 times : Qul Shareef & send it for the Brave Souls .

May Allah devine the Peace to their Families Amen.
Salute :pakistan:
 
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