Messiach & the Pakistan's Urgent Need for A Turbine Engine

[Armchair]

Someone was kind enough to introduce me to Massiach's posts here on the Azm thread. I have actually spent from 8:30PM - 4:30 AM reading her posts. Often one liners, they were fascinating.

While I am not from Pakistan, I can clearly see the point she is making. That it is vital for Pakistan to build turbine engines. From reading her posts it is clear she has a very well developed plan on how this can be done at very low costs and in a short amount of time. Who knows? Maybe even within 5 years.

Even not being Pakistani, I can see the urgent and vital need for this. I am surprised she has not been funded. I wish Pakistanis on this forum would pay attention. There is a lot of defense related people here and possibly many more that never post but come here to read.

If we organize ourselves we can create a group that will get the word out, push this agenda, market this. Here is where all this online steam can be put to good use on this forum. I strongly urge you, if you are Pakistani, to support messaich in her quest.

A turbine in the class of 110 Kn will mean fighter aircraft, warships, powerplants, factories, and more.

I urge you, please do not take this lightly. You have this within your capacity to organize and push for this. You have to believe in yourself. You can't let those traitors among you that have blocked this kind of programs from succeeding.

@messiach @bilalkhan(quwa) @bilalkhan777 @Oscar

(Please tag whoever you think would be interested in this thread).

 

[Maarkhoor]

Building such kind of engines requires full scale related Industry and building such big scale industry you need lot of money and decades of R&D......and further you can't make it profitable until you have some customers from outside....In short building engine to power one aircraft is a highly risky business example is India.....Kaveri debacle......

Russia and USA plus other developed nation ....producing engines since last century while our elders fighting for independence...........we need to cover 100 years gap which is quite impossible.....

What we can do is TOT.....

 

[amardeep mishra]

Building such kind of engines requires full scale related Industry and building such big scale industry you need lot of money and decades of R&D......and further you can't make it profitable until you have some customers from outside....In short building engine to power one aircraft is a highly risky business example is India.....Kaveri debacle......

Russia and USA plus other developed nation ....producing engines since last century while our elders fighting for independence...........we need to cover 100 years gap which is quite impossible.....

What we can do is TOT.....

Hi wish you had not dragged India into this, but since you have dragged it nontheless, let me clarify couple of things for you-
Engine development is perhaps more complicated than developing entire aircraft. There are of course failures and shortcomings in the development process especially if that is being attempted for the first time. India is no exception. I visited the def expo couple of days back and interacted with guys at GTRE--the lab responsible solely for gas turbines in India. Some of the points I wish to highlight are-

1) India spent close to $700mn on various gas turbine related development plans. Kaveri is not the first nor the last in the efforts to design a gas turbine in house. Kaveri is undoubtedly one of the most ambitious aero engine programs undertaken by India, now it is ambitious because it envisaged an engine with digital FADEC, high thrust output and lightweight. Kaveri had various challenges right from accoustic instability, shortfall in wet thrust etc etc. But most of those problems have been rectified. Now the major challenge that remains is in the field of metallurgy or newer generation of single crystal blades. India unfortunately has been able to ONLY successfully develop 1st and 2nd gen of SCBs circa 90s, whereas the west has advanced all the way to 4th gen. The $1bn+ offset clause will help GTRE validate and certify their engine for fighter application and Safran are going to help them. Validating and certifying an aero engine is not a small feat by any engineering standards.

2) There are various other programs that have drawn in a lot from Kaveri episode and they are turning out to be fine, for instance quite recently HAL designed a 25kN engine for regional airliner and trainer jets. This engine was almost entirely 3D printed in Bangalore and I happened to have visited the test rig at AERDC facility. Similarly a 1200hp engine for helicopter is also in final stages of development.

3) The miniaturized turbofan engine of 400kgf class has also been test fired on a rig and they are planning to integrate it onto Nirbhay in June. This engine has slightly higher throughput than the Russian turbofan that ADE is using for Nirbhay.
What you fail to notice is that, Kaveri might have had itz shortfall but the lessons learnt were applied to various other programs. Also it gave rise to Indian industry that can fabricate various complex titanium alloys, single crystal blades among other things. #2 and #3 are some of the products spawned off the lessons learnt via Kaveri endevour.

 

[Maarkhoor]

What you fail to notice is that, Kaveri might have had itz shortfall but the lessons learnt were applied to various other programs. Also it gave rise to Indian industry that can fabricate various complex titanium alloys, single crystal blades among other things. #2 and #3 are some of the products spawned off the lessons learnt via Kaveri endevour.

You people always learn but fails to deliver.....

Have a nice day.....

My intention was not to troll Indians but a reply for O.P that we are lacking behind almost a century (in respect of R&D and related industry) in engine making.

 

[amardeep mishra]

You people always learn but fails to deliver.....

@Maarkhoor

You can have that opinion. It is perfectly fine to have any opinion as you like, but slowly and gradually you'll see various Indian designed engines replacing foreign ones like trainer jets, Cruise missiles, regional airliners and light fighter jets. Cruise missiles is something that will see this change very soon. I had extensive interaction with GTRE guys on this issue and can comment on some of them which are not classified, rest other, I unfortunately cant comment here!

 

[Maarkhoor]

@Maarkhoor

You can have that opinion. It is perfectly fine to have any opinion as you like, but slowly and gradually you'll see various Indian designed engines replacing foreign ones like trainer jets, Cruise missiles, regional airliners and light fighter jets. Cruise missiles is something that will see this change very soon. I had extensive interaction with GTRE guys on this issue and can comment on some of them which are not classified, rest other, I unfortunately cant comment here!

Lols ... You are talking about C.Ms....They one claimed successful is a Russian....licensed production Brahmos......The one you trying to develop Nirbhay ....still far behind to induct even after 10 year...5 consecutive failures....lolss

 

[Armchair]

Building such kind of engines requires full scale related Industry and building such big scale industry you need lot of money and decades of R&D......and further you can't make it profitable until you have some customers from outside....In short building engine to power one aircraft is a highly risky business example is India.....Kaveri debacle......

Russia and USA plus other developed nation ....producing engines since last century while our elders fighting for independence...........we need to cover 100 years gap which is quite impossible.....

What we can do is TOT.....

Are you an expert in that field?

It is clear that messiach is saying it can be done at low cost, not needing a lot of money, and in a short time.

So should I believer her or should I believe you? Do Pakistanis always doubt their own industrial experts and write rubbish to put their theories down based on zero credibility?

 

[amardeep mishra]

Lols ... You are talking about C.Ms....They one claimed successful is a Russian....licensed production Brahmos......The one you trying to develop Nirbhay ....still far behind to induct even after 10 year...5 consecutive failures....lolss

Whatever that makes you feel good. Peace

 

[somebozo]

R/D Always creates valuable knowledge and even patents.
In early 1900 Philips Co. spent a lot of money into R/D on stirling engines. Even thought Philips never went into pass production of Stirling engines and their first series production batch was halted only after 150 units, it accumulated a wealth of knowledge and patents which continue to benefit many Stirling engines in use today.

Hi wish you had not dragged India into this, but since you have dragged it nontheless, let me clarify couple of things for you-
Engine development is perhaps more complicated than developing entire aircraft. There are of course failures and shortcomings in the development process especially if that is being attempted for the first time. India is no exception. I visited the def expo couple of days back and interacted with guys at GTRE--the lab responsible solely for gas turbines in India. Some of the points I wish to highlight are-

1) India spent close to $700mn on various gas turbine related development plans. Kaveri is not the first nor the last in the efforts to design a gas turbine in house. Kaveri is undoubtedly one of the most ambitious aero engine programs undertaken by India, now it is ambitious because it envisaged an engine with digital FADEC, high thrust output and lightweight. Kaveri had various challenges right from accoustic instability, shortfall in wet thrust etc etc. But most of those problems have been rectified. Now the major challenge that remains is in the field of metallurgy or newer generation of single crystal blades. India unfortunately has been able to ONLY successfully develop 1st and 2nd gen of SCBs circa 90s, whereas the west has advanced all the way to 4th gen. The $1bn+ offset clause will help GTRE validate and certify their engine for fighter application and Safran are going to help them. Validating and certifying an aero engine is not a small feat by any engineering standards.

2) There are various other programs that have drawn in a lot from Kaveri episode and they are turning out to be fine, for instance quite recently HAL designed a 25kN engine for regional airliner and trainer jets. This engine was almost entirely 3D printed in Bangalore and I happened to have visited the test rig at AERDC facility. Similarly a 1200hp engine for helicopter is also in final stages of development.View attachment 466495
View attachment 466506

3) The miniaturized turbofan engine of 400kgf class has also been test fired on a rig and they are planning to integrate it onto Nirbhay in June. This engine has slightly higher throughput than the Russian turbofan that ADE is using for Nirbhay.
What you fail to notice is that, Kaveri might have had itz shortfall but the lessons learnt were applied to various other programs. Also it gave rise to Indian industry that can fabricate various complex titanium alloys, single crystal blades among other things. #2 and #3 are some of the products spawned off the lessons learnt via Kaveri endevour.

 

[New World]

You people always learn but fails to deliver.....

Have a nice day.....

My intention was not to troll Indians but a reply for O.P that we are lacking behind almost a century (in respect of R&D and related industry) in engine making.

even though they didn't make ideal or comparable engine but atleast they tried on it. they get their hands on it.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

With every step of failure---you are getting closer to the step of success---.

 

[Thorough Pro]

He didn't dragged india, just gave an example, but you were just itching to boast here just like that faithful animal who can't resist raising its leg when it sees an electric pole

Hi wish you had not dragged India into this, but since you have dragged it nontheless, let me clarify couple of things for you-
Engine development is perhaps more complicated than developing entire aircraft. There are of course failures and shortcomings in the development process especially if that is being attempted for the first time. India is no exception. I visited the def expo couple of days back and interacted with guys at GTRE--the lab responsible solely for gas turbines in India. Some of the points I wish to highlight are-

1) India spent close to $700mn on various gas turbine related development plans. Kaveri is not the first nor the last in the efforts to design a gas turbine in house. Kaveri is undoubtedly one of the most ambitious aero engine programs undertaken by India, now it is ambitious because it envisaged an engine with digital FADEC, high thrust output and lightweight. Kaveri had various challenges right from accoustic instability, shortfall in wet thrust etc etc. But most of those problems have been rectified. Now the major challenge that remains is in the field of metallurgy or newer generation of single crystal blades. India unfortunately has been able to ONLY successfully develop 1st and 2nd gen of SCBs circa 90s, whereas the west has advanced all the way to 4th gen. The $1bn+ offset clause will help GTRE validate and certify their engine for fighter application and Safran are going to help them. Validating and certifying an aero engine is not a small feat by any engineering standards.

2) There are various other programs that have drawn in a lot from Kaveri episode and they are turning out to be fine, for instance quite recently HAL designed a 25kN engine for regional airliner and trainer jets. This engine was almost entirely 3D printed in Bangalore and I happened to have visited the test rig at AERDC facility. Similarly a 1200hp engine for helicopter is also in final stages of development.View attachment 466495
View attachment 466506

3) The miniaturized turbofan engine of 400kgf class has also been test fired on a rig and they are planning to integrate it onto Nirbhay in June. This engine has slightly higher throughput than the Russian turbofan that ADE is using for Nirbhay.
What you fail to notice is that, Kaveri might have had itz shortfall but the lessons learnt were applied to various other programs. Also it gave rise to Indian industry that can fabricate various complex titanium alloys, single crystal blades among other things. #2 and #3 are some of the products spawned off the lessons learnt via Kaveri endevour.

 

[amardeep mishra]

He didn't dragged india

Hi Thorough Pro, I think instead of mud slinging that you are so fond of, you should talk based on "credible" scientific facts and evidences. I never denied that Kaveri have had major shortcomings, but those shortcomings taught some major lesson to folks who are my batchmates and are working at GTRE.
Also he did take an unnecessary dig at India without even knowing the bulk of research,patents and industrial activity in the field of gas turbine. Now let's be civilized and scientific.
PS- as a final note, do look at the grammar of what I've quoted above.

 

[Shabi1]

local manufacturing is not always ideal.
I think the investment required, the economy of scale along with time constraint and the risks involved, Pakistan doesnt have the luxury for it's own Jet/Turbine engine program right now. No need to reinvent the wheel if requirements being met at a decent cost.

What we can do is have local infrastructure for parts, maintenance and overhaul, for which the right steps are already being taken. We are already rebuilding several power platforms on our own for helicopters, jets and ships. AH-1 Cobra engines were locally rebuilt after a dispute with the manufacturer not too long ago and I think there was also a MOU for RD-93 rebuild infrastructure some times back. Likely a license production for jet engines will eventually be done in future.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Are you an expert in that field?

It is clear that messiach is saying it can be done at low cost, not needing a lot of money, and in a short time.

So should I believer her or should I believe you? Do Pakistanis always doubt their own industrial experts and write rubbish to put their theories down based on zero credibility?

So what makes her an expert? Her claim? Anyone can claim anything here. Even if she is an expert, she can't guarantee that a country with no history of developing jet engines would be able to succeed in its first attempt at a low cost. If it can be done it would be a miracle...but no scientist/engineer will promise that in their right mind...if they do then it's just BS and not at all realistic.

Turkey is way ahead of us technologically and even they are in need of foreign help in order to develop an engine for TFX. India's attempt was already mentioned...and China with years of R&D and loads of money spent has barely achieved success relatively recently. There are multiple such examples while u wouldn't be able to provide a single one for ur case(where it was done at the very first attempt with a low budget).