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Many Muslims in Europe publicly abandoning Islam, becoming Christians

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karan.1970

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Muslim 'apostates' come out of hiding in Europe - The Times of India

BRUSSELS: A number of Muslims in Europe are publicly abandoning their religion to become Christians or agnostics despite their former community's taboo against such acts.

In France, the film "The Apostle" by filmmaker Cheyenne Carron has meanwhile lifted the veil on "apostasy" by telling the story of a young Muslim who converted to Catholicism and how he had trouble getting family and friends to accept his choice.

"It is time for us to stop hiding," said Pastor Said Oujibou, 46, who left radical Islam for evangelical protestantism and who is among the few converts to have publicized his decision in France.

He said he is "tolerated" by his former co-religionists, even if he admits to having sparked "sarcasm and annoyance" from them.

But he warned against the "double talk" that certain branches of Islam in France close to the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafists use toward apostate Muslims.

"Apostasy is a taboo in Muslim culture and if the text of the Quran does not provide for any punishment, prophetic tradition calls for killing apostates," said Radouane Attiya, a former preacher trained in Saudi Arabia who is now a specialist on Islam at Liege University in Belgium.

Specialists said that more people become Muslim in Europe than leave the faith but Muslims converting to Christianity, especially evangelical protestantism, are on the rise, according to Oujibou.

Evangelicals seek to proselytise in working class and immigrant neighbourhoods where there are many Muslims.

"In Europe, as in Arab countries, there is a rampant atheism gaining ground. But what is new is the search for visibility," Attiya said.

He said "Islamic radicalism, world jihadism are contributing to the emergence of a reverse radicalism."

Ahmed, a Belgian engineer in his forties, abandoned Islam because he said he rejected the "total control" his former religion has over people's lives.


Ahmed spoke only on condition of anonymity and said he was also "fed up with the omnipresence of fundamentalists," and what he called "the hypocrisy of Islam."

He joined a group that fights Muslim "indoctrination," one that has around ten members, "very little financial means" and a website publicising the books of Robert Spencer, an American anti-Muslim blogger who has been accused of racism and incitement to hatred.

Similar organisations have existed for several years in Britain and Germany, made up of Iranian exiles.

In September, the Central Council of Ex-Muslims in Germany called for a protest against a handful of Salafists who proclaimed themselves "police of the Sharia," Islamic law, in the western city of Wuppertal.

"It's true," Ahmed said, "that somehow we join the extreme right, but Islam is also the extreme right. It's up to us to clean house."

Imtiaz Shams, 25, who comes from what he calls a "very conservative" Muslim family in London, may not be an activist like Ahmed.

But he renounced his faith before his family two years ago and joined an "underground community" for former Muslims that now numbers around 300 people in London.

"We do weekly meet-ups, we take care of each other. This is not even the tip of the iceberg. It's a couple of ice cubes on top of the iceberg," Shams said.

"We don't really fit in with the activist ex-Muslim stuff. It's more personal," he said.

He said it is very difficult for Muslims to "come out" before their families.

"People feel hurt, because they feel like you are rejecting something, almost spitting in their face even if you have respect for their faith," he said.

For his mother, it's also "the fear that my child is going to hell." He estimated that there may be around 10,000 agnostics among London's Muslim community of 600,000.
 
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I never understood why someone is leaving a religion just to join another, if you never really believed in your religion then you will also not believe in your new one, better become atheist and be done with it once for all. :coffee:
 
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Mostly the followers of the salafist strain are more likely to either become disinterested or radicalized. That is natural when the beliefs are so radical, reminds me of some white Dane who converted to salafist branch of Islam became a terrorist and then did a complete 180 and became an atheist informant for Danish intelligence nearly overnight.
 
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I never understood why someone is leaving a religion just to join another, if you never really believed in your religion then you will also not believe in your new one, better become atheist and be done with it once for all. :coffee:
A lot of people need some sort of faith in order to keep growing as human being!! Nothing wrong in that.
Nothing wrong in Islam too , but as someone said , its the fan following that bugs others. Oh the Irony!!
 
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Not a big deal, everyone should be allowed to leave and join any religion he/she wishes. In fact during the time of Prophet Muhammad(saw) hypocrites used to accept Islam and leave in the night to mock the few followers of Islam and give a false impression of more people leaving then joining. Yet Islam still grew despite persecution. What we are seeing today is mostly Salafists/wahabis and former terrorists leaving Islam. In the end this is good news for Muslims. The west should help these former terrorists and extremists, at least Islam will then be free from extremism. I think ISIS should join Christianity, they will make good and righteous Christians.
 
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Muslim 'apostates' come out of hiding in Europe - The Times of India

BRUSSELS: A number of Muslims in Europe are publicly abandoning their religion to become Christians or agnostics despite their former community's taboo against such acts.

In France, the film "The Apostle" by filmmaker Cheyenne Carron has meanwhile lifted the veil on "apostasy" by telling the story of a young Muslim who converted to Catholicism and how he had trouble getting family and friends to accept his choice.

"It is time for us to stop hiding," said Pastor Said Oujibou, 46, who left radical Islam for evangelical protestantism and who is among the few converts to have publicized his decision in France.

He said he is "tolerated" by his former co-religionists, even if he admits to having sparked "sarcasm and annoyance" from them.

But he warned against the "double talk" that certain branches of Islam in France close to the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafists use toward apostate Muslims.

"Apostasy is a taboo in Muslim culture and if the text of the Quran does not provide for any punishment, prophetic tradition calls for killing apostates," said Radouane Attiya, a former preacher trained in Saudi Arabia who is now a specialist on Islam at Liege University in Belgium.

Specialists said that more people become Muslim in Europe than leave the faith but Muslims converting to Christianity, especially evangelical protestantism, are on the rise, according to Oujibou.

Evangelicals seek to proselytise in working class and immigrant neighbourhoods where there are many Muslims.

"In Europe, as in Arab countries, there is a rampant atheism gaining ground. But what is new is the search for visibility," Attiya said.

He said "Islamic radicalism, world jihadism are contributing to the emergence of a reverse radicalism."

Ahmed, a Belgian engineer in his forties, abandoned Islam because he said he rejected the "total control" his former religion has over people's lives.


Ahmed spoke only on condition of anonymity and said he was also "fed up with the omnipresence of fundamentalists," and what he called "the hypocrisy of Islam."

He joined a group that fights Muslim "indoctrination," one that has around ten members, "very little financial means" and a website publicising the books of Robert Spencer, an American anti-Muslim blogger who has been accused of racism and incitement to hatred.

Similar organisations have existed for several years in Britain and Germany, made up of Iranian exiles.

In September, the Central Council of Ex-Muslims in Germany called for a protest against a handful of Salafists who proclaimed themselves "police of the Sharia," Islamic law, in the western city of Wuppertal.

"It's true," Ahmed said, "that somehow we join the extreme right, but Islam is also the extreme right. It's up to us to clean house."

Imtiaz Shams, 25, who comes from what he calls a "very conservative" Muslim family in London, may not be an activist like Ahmed.

But he renounced his faith before his family two years ago and joined an "underground community" for former Muslims that now numbers around 300 people in London.

"We do weekly meet-ups, we take care of each other. This is not even the tip of the iceberg. It's a couple of ice cubes on top of the iceberg," Shams said.

"We don't really fit in with the activist ex-Muslim stuff. It's more personal," he said.

He said it is very difficult for Muslims to "come out" before their families.

"People feel hurt, because they feel like you are rejecting something, almost spitting in their face even if you have respect for their faith," he said.

For his mother, it's also "the fear that my child is going to hell." He estimated that there may be around 10,000 agnostics among London's Muslim community of 600,000.

there are always people including muslim who are changing their faith, I watched a documentry some 15 years ago about that and its not a recent phenomena. People who didn't have any bond with their religion they were born in are target of missionaries. I know few who didnt give much attention to their religious beliefs in their household and now their kids dont know Islam and would change if any opportunity comes around.
 
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Why is it that only The Times of India is reporting this? Every other site reporting this mentioned its source to be The Times of India.

Anyways, so what if they're leaving Islam? No compulsion in religion, remember? One thing to keep in mind is that their communities consider it a taboo because for many conservatives, leaving Islam means you want to get high on drugs, drink alcohol and have 10 girlfriends i.e leave morality.
For his mother, it's also "the fear that my child is going to hell."
This part doesn't do justice to the actual concerns mothers have. It's not just about hell. Its about morality. Conservative Muslim mothers don't want their children to be involved in immoral and really, really harmful things like drugs and parties and all that god-awful stuff western kids do. (the fact that kids end up getting involved in those things anyways is a different matter).

They should understand that leaving Islam and leaving morality entirely are two different things. They should teach their children to be moral, even without Islam.

prophetic tradition calls for killing apostates
No, no it doesn't. It certainly doesn't. Any 'prophetic tradition' that says so would be in contradiction of the Quran and thus, not authentic.

"Say (Muhammad it is) truth from the Lord of all. Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, LET him disbelieve." [18:29]

''There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is here forth distinct from error..." [2:256]

"Those who believe, then reject Faith, then believe (again) and again reject Faith, go on increasing in Unbelief--G'd will not forgive them nor guide them on the Way." [4:137] (An apostate could not have enjoyed the repeated luxury of believing and disbelieving if the punishment was death. A dead man has no further chance of again believing and disbelieving.)
 
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Muslims can leave and join Islam at anytime. No biggy.

Not a big deal, everyone should be allowed to leave and join any religion he/she wishes. In fact during the time of Prophet Muhammad(saw) hypocrites used to accept Islam and leave in the night to mock the few followers of Islam and give a false impression of more people leaving then joining. Yet Islam still grew despite persecution. What we are seeing today is mostly Salafists/wahabis and former terrorists leaving Islam. In the end this is good news for Muslims. The west should help these former terrorists and extremists, at least Islam will then be free from extremism. I think ISIS should join Christianity, they will make good and righteous Christians.

Then why is the prescribed punishment for apostasy death in Islam?
 
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It is not. See post #9.

Yes, it is:

"Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." - Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17

(Also by Sahih Muslim, 16:4152)
 
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Yes, it is:

"Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." - Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17

(Also by Sahih Muslim, 16:4152)
Hadith like that are either misinterpreted or not authentic if they contradict the Quran.

"Say (Muhammad it is) truth from the Lord of all. Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, LET him disbelieve." [18:29]
''There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is here forth distinct from error..." [2:256]
"Those who believe, then reject Faith, then believe (again) and again reject Faith, go on increasing in Unbelief--G'd will not forgive them nor guide them on the Way." [4:137] (An apostate could not have enjoyed the repeated luxury of believing and disbelieving if the punishment was death. A dead man has no further chance of again believing and disbelieving.)
 
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Hadith like that are either misinterpreted or not authentic if they contradict the Quran.

Those ahadith are widely accepted as being correct, Sir.
 
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Anyways, so what if they're leaving Islam? No compulsion in religion, remember? One thing to keep in mind is that their
Who are you kidding?
It is legally a crime to leave Islam in Pakistan - punishable by death should the Judge so decide.
It is a crime to leave Islam in Saudi Arabia. It is a crime in almost every Muslim majority country to leave Islam..those people who do are persecuted...and here you are conveniently chatting away on a forum saying 'its no biggie'.
 
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