What's new

Manoeuvres make waves but in truth Chinese navy is a paper tiger

Krueger

BANNED
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
264
Reaction score
0
Country
United States
Location
United States
By PAUL DIBB THE AUSTRALIAN MARCH 07, 2014

The recent transit of three Chinese warships between Java and Christmas Island, as well as the new Chinese aircraft carrier being deployed in the South China Sea, are causing predictable overreaction.

The fact is that neither of these are momentous events and they certainly do not herald the coming of Chinese naval superiority in the Western Pacific.

China is still way behind advanced navies, such as those of the US. It will be a long time before it has a true distant power projection capability able to wage sustained naval warfare. It has no history of carrying out modern warfare at sea or in the air and if it confronts the US on the high seas it will certainly lose.


None of this is to deny that China is making some quite impressive progress in its naval modernisation. That is only natural for an emerging power that until recently has not had a navy worth talking about. China is now highly dependent on seaborne trade and will be increasingly interested in securing its trade routes where possible. The fact is, however, that no nation is capable of defending all its trade routes. The best one can do is to co-operate with like-minded friends and share the burden of maritime security.

The big strategic problem for China is that it has very few friends in our region worth talking about - unless you think North Korea and Pakistan are reliable security partners. It is a strategic loner.

China is only making matters worse for itself by threatening Japan in the East China Sea and ThePhilippines, Vietnam and Malaysia in the South China Sea.

A prominent Chinese academic has recently declared with regard to China's territorial rights in the South China Sea that it "is entitled to use all means at its disposal to settle disputes to its satisfaction" and this includes "employing its full capacities to assert sovereignty". Such provocative statements would not be made without official endorsement in a tightly regimented society such as China's.

So, we have to be concerned that China is starting to throw its weight about and that it will increasingly have the military capabilities to bully smaller powers, especially in Southeast Asia.

That is of concern to Australia because we want to see a Southeast Asia that resists Chinese hegemony.

Japan is in a much stronger position because it still has a highly competent navy and air force and is taking steps to be able to handle Chinese military provocations, short of all-out war.

This is where the US comes in because it has an infinitely more powerful navy in the Pacific than China. We should encourage Washington to reinforce its presence in our region. In the upcoming visit by Barack Obama in April to Japan, South Korea, The Philippines and Malaysia, it will be important for the US President to demonstrate tangibly the so-called pivot to Asia.

Australia can usefully assist here, not only by facilitating the presence of US marines in Darwin but also by responding positively to any US requests for greater use of our naval facilities in Western Australia and the future use of Cocos Islands.

It is important, however, that we keep the expansion of China's naval capabilities in perspective.

While prudent steps must be taken to demonstrate to Beijing the superiority of US naval capabilities, there are serious questions about whether China will be the dominant naval power that some are drumming up.

China is a land power with enormous domestic challenges ahead that will constrain its strategic ambitions.

Robert Ross of Harvard University has pointed out that China's maritime power will be limited by the constraints experienced by all land powers: extensive challenges to territorial security (China shares borders with 14 countries) and a corresponding commitment to a large ground force capability.

China spends as much on internal security as on defence.

Historically, land powers such as Russia, Germany and France have repeatedly failed to secure maritime power. The optimal maritime strategy for a continental power such as China is what is called access-denial capability to its maritime approaches, which is precisely what China is undertaking. This was also the Soviet Union's maritime strategy for nearly three decades.

And like the former Soviet Union, China has limited geographical access to open seas, which can easily be constrained by superior Western detection and tracking capabilities.

Chinese nationalism is driving grandiose and costly expectations for a large blue-water navy, which is a traditional symbol of great power status. But now is not the time for exaggerated assessments of Chinese naval power or breathless proclamations that Australia's strategic environment has radically changed.


We have heard all that before when prime minister Malcolm Fraser proclaimed that the arrival of the Soviet navy in the Indian Ocean in the 1970s heralded a serious threat to the West's oil supplies. And where is Russia's navy now?


Paul Dibb is professor emeritus of strategic studies at the Australian National University. He is a former deputy secretary for Defence, director of the Joint Intelligence Organisation and head of the National Assessments Staff.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
 
By PAUL DIBB THE AUSTRALIAN MARCH 07, 2014

The recent transit of three Chinese warships between Java and Christmas Island, as well as the new Chinese aircraft carrier being deployed in the South China Sea, are causing predictable overreaction.

The fact is that neither of these are momentous events and they certainly do not herald the coming of Chinese naval superiority in the Western Pacific.

China is still way behind advanced navies, such as those of the US. It will be a long time before it has a true distant power projection capability able to wage sustained naval warfare. It has no history of carrying out modern warfare at sea or in the air and if it confronts the US on the high seas it will certainly lose.

Clever use of words, China is still way behind such advanced navies such as those of the US. You mean only US, if he had a second nation, he would have gladly said it.


None of this is to deny that China is making some quite impressive progress in its naval modernisation. That is only natural for an emerging power that until recently has not had a navy worth talking about. China is now highly dependent on seaborne trade and will be increasingly interested in securing its trade routes where possible. The fact is, however, that no nation is capable of defending all its trade routes. The best one can do is to co-operate with like-minded friends and share the burden of maritime security.

The big strategic problem for China is that it has very few friends in our region worth talking about - unless you think North Korea and Pakistan are reliable security partners. It is a strategic loner.

China is only making matters worse for itself by threatening Japan in the East China Sea and ThePhilippines, Vietnam and Malaysia in the South China Sea.

We have very few friends because unlike Europe our empire never broke, so instead of friends, everyone is just Chinese. NK is not a friend, stop grouping them with us, even if we are they don't change the power balance.

And yes we could defeat every sea route, there's really not that many, our coast guard is going to match and exceed the US by 2020, only less than 6 years. Today it is still very powerful, and can patrol mass sea routes, just ask the Philippines.

Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia doesn't change the equation. Japan does. But Japan and us always had that thing, so it is what it is.


A prominent Chinese academic has recently declared with regard to China's territorial rights in the South China Sea that it "is entitled to use all means at its disposal to settle disputes to its satisfaction" and this includes "employing its full capacities to assert sovereignty". Such provocative statements would not be made without official endorsement in a tightly regimented society such as China's.

So, we have to be concerned that China is starting to throw its weight about and that it will increasingly have the military capabilities to bully smaller powers, especially in Southeast Asia.

That is of concern to Australia because we want to see a Southeast Asia that resists Chinese hegemony.
You should be concerned, you shouldn't be if China was actually throwing our weight around, but you should be because we are fast advancing finish a weapon system, test it, deploy some of it, and see if it will match or exceed US similar equipment for 10-15 years, then mass produce it.

We are patient, the worse kind of enemy, the ones that know what we are doing.


Japan is in a much stronger position because it still has a highly competent navy and air force and is taking steps to be able to handle Chinese military provocations, short of all-out war.

This is where the US comes in because it has an infinitely more powerful navy in the Pacific than China. We should encourage Washington to reinforce its presence in our region. In the upcoming visit by Barack Obama in April to Japan, South Korea, The Philippines and Malaysia, it will be important for the US President to demonstrate tangibly the so-called pivot to Asia.

Funny, is Japan handling it by visiting Shrines that piss off China AND South Korea? Is Japan denying comfort women who are more Korean than Chinese handling it? If it is then Abe needs a medal.


Australia can usefully assist here, not only by facilitating the presence of US marines in Darwin but also by responding positively to any US requests for greater use of our naval facilities in Western Australia and the future use of Cocos Islands.

It is important, however, that we keep the expansion of China's naval capabilities in perspective.

While prudent steps must be taken to demonstrate to Beijing the superiority of US naval capabilities, there are serious questions about whether China will be the dominant naval power that some are drumming up.

There are serious questions cause you don't follow Chinese development.

Type 56, and upgrades, to go with type 022 missile boats for patrol

Type 54a, 57 for anti sub and support, type 57 is unmatched in its class and will begin construction this year, the number is 20, while 54A already has 24, with the last few soon to be inducted.

Type 51 to 52D destroyers, by decades end we will have more than 20 Aegis destroyers of 6000-8000 tons variety.

Type 55 12,000 tons, can be compared to anything but Zumwalt, but US only will have three of that. While we will have 12-15

LHDs, 071, 2-3 carriers, biggest mine sweeping fleet, 2nd largest supply fleet, second largest submarine fleet, with more advanced nuclear attack and balistic subs. And tons more

How is this not a dominating force, give me another one other than the states who can even come close. Maybe Russia, don't think so, but even if that's true, that's our ally not America's.


China is a land power with enormous domestic challenges ahead that will constrain its strategic ambitions.

Robert Ross of Harvard University has pointed out that China's maritime power will be limited by the constraints experienced by all land powers: extensive challenges to territorial security (China shares borders with 14 countries) and a corresponding commitment to a large ground force capability.

China spends as much on internal security as on defence.

I don't understand why they keep saying China has domestic challenges, which nation doesn't? China hasn't fallen off the happy train yet, but America already has, so instead of waiting for us, you are already *** on the ground.


Historically, land powers such as Russia, Germany and France have repeatedly failed to secure maritime power. The optimal maritime strategy for a continental power such as China is what is called access-denial capability to its maritime approaches, which is precisely what China is undertaking. This was also the Soviet Union's maritime strategy for nearly three decades.


And like the former Soviet Union, China has limited geographical access to open seas, which can easily be constrained by superior Western detection and tracking capabilities.

Chinese nationalism is driving grandiose and costly expectations for a large blue-water navy, which is a traditional symbol of great power status. But now is not the time for exaggerated assessments of Chinese naval power or breathless proclamations that Australia's strategic environment has radically changed.


We have heard all that before when prime minister Malcolm Fraser proclaimed that the arrival of the Soviet navy in the Indian Ocean in the 1970s heralded a serious threat to the West's oil supplies. And where is Russia's navy now?

Where's Russia now? Perfect example of how stupid this person is and why Aussie military sucks, if this person is on it. Russia and China, exactly the same deal.

Well I just wasted my time responding to this.
 
Clever use of words, China is still way behind such advanced navies such as those of the US. You mean only US, if he had a second nation, he would have gladly said it.

Actually it's not a clever use of words at all. Clever use would be wherethe deception is not so obvious. The author said ''navies'' in the plural, and even before I finished reading the sentence, I was wondering who it could be other than the USN. When I finished reading the sentence, the dishonesty became obvious. The USN is mightier than the next few navies put together, and nobody disputes that. But other that the USN, there is no other navy that can seriously threathen the Chinese navy, especially near home.

It is true that the PLAN's power projection abilities are rather limited, especially in comparison to the size of the force. That is a doctrinal issue - for instance, I don't understand why China did not attempt to learn carrier aviation sooner. If India can build a carrier today, China could have started building one 20 years back. Or bought one or two from the Soviet Union even before. That would have balanced PLAN's force structure much better.
 
Last edited:
Actually it's not a clever use of words at all. Clever use would be where it isn't obviously a lie. The author said ''navies'' in the plural, and even before I finished reading the sentence, I was wondering who it could be other than the USN. When I finished reading the sentence, the dishonesty became obvious. The USN is mightier than the next few navies put together, and nobody disputes that. But other that the USN, there is no other navy that can seriously threathen the Chinese navy, especially near home.

It is true that the PLAN's power projection abilities are rather limited, especially in comparison to the size of the force. That is a doctrinal issue - for instance, I don't understand why China did not attempt to learn carrier aviation sooner. If India can build a carrier today, China could have started building one 20 years back. Or bought one or two from the Soviet Union even before. That would have balanced PLAN's force structure much better.

Jiang zemin said who ever talks about a carrier is a traitor to the nation. His stance was China was not ready for carrier warfare, not only because of money, but strategically it was unnecessary at that point and would make too much noise when he was in the middle of some very important trade deals with the world.

He maintained, when China is big enough, making a carrier is easy, so there would be no point of spending precious resource on something like that when so many other places deserve attention first.

So instead it was economy first military second.
 
:rofl:So why is Australia all work up about this "paper tiger navy?"
 
Jiang zemin said who ever talks about a carrier is a traitor to the nation. His stance was China was not ready for carrier warfare, not only because of money, but strategically it was unnecessary at that point and would make too much noise when he was in the middle of some very important trade deals with the world.

He maintained, when China is big enough, making a carrier is easy, so there would be no point of spending precious resource on something like that when so many other places deserve attention first.

So instead it was economy first military second.
That last sentence would have been convincing, if China did not have such a large military, including a very large navy.

See, the point is that China does spend a lot on the military. Now having one or two aircraft carriers bring in a lot more power to the force than say, ten destroyers alone. So it will be saving money to have carriers, at least small to medium sized ones like India used to operate. One carrier may be expensive, but one carrier battle group is far more value for money than the number of ships that would need to be operated to bring that much power and reach.

I'm not talking about USN type of supercarriers which can go pound a country halfway around the world, and take on any spectrum of air war. I'm talking about how India and Russia have used carriers, for sea control. There is a reason we always operated at least one carrier all the time, despite spending only paltry sums on the military, of which the poor navy got only a tiny fraction. We would not have been able to maintain control over the Indian Ocean Region, had we not had carriers.

If and when China puts three carriers into service, and gains enough experience and skill sets, China's adversaries would not be able to take on PLAN at all, without US' assistance. Assuming that the carrier borne fighters are of good quality, and especially if it is possible to develop a carrier borne AEWACS (since the planned carriers are 65,000 tonnes class).
 
paper tiger paper tiger paper tiger paper tiger paper tiger paper tiger paper tiger paper tiger paper tiger paper tiger paper tiger

so what are you waiting for? hurry up and attack. pinoys showed us what tough guys they are when they opened fire on and massacred the taiwanese fisherman. taking on china's navy will prove they are the banana hegemon of asia.
 
China's navy at this point and time is no match what so ever against our USN. If a war was to break out today navy vs. navy the U.S. could totally destroy them in a matter of days and China knows this. China is really built to do one thing and one thing only and that is to be able to protect it's own borders. Their military is not able to go anywhere in the world like the U.S. can in a matter of days to unleash its military strength. This may be another reason why they are spending more to building up their military.
 
China's navy at this point and time is no match what so ever against our USN. If a war was to break out today navy vs. navy the U.S. could totally destroy them in a matter of days and China knows this. China is really built to do one thing and one thing only and that is to be able to protect it's own borders. Their military is not able to go anywhere in the world like the U.S. can in a matter of days to unleash its military strength. This may be another reason why they are spending more to building up their military.
Then you shouldn't be worried after all, China is a paper tiger and will get destroyed within days.
You can save on your sleeping pills from now.
 
The amount of disrespect we receive from Western analysts is amazing. I really wish some fucking country like Japan grows some ball and starts instigate a war with us by shooting at us first so we can prove our worth. Pleases start a war with us!

 
China's navy at this point and time is no match what so ever against our USN. If a war was to break out today navy vs. navy the U.S. could totally destroy them in a matter of days and China knows this. China is really built to do one thing and one thing only and that is to be able to protect it's own borders. Their military is not able to go anywhere in the world like the U.S. can in a matter of days to unleash its military strength. This may be another reason why they are spending more to building up their military.
:cheesy:

do you work for comedy central? China has a large number of anti-ship missiles. you will win in conventional ,but you will lose large portion of navy.

The amount of disrespect we receive from Western analysts is amazing. I really wish some fucking country like Japan grows some ball and starts instigate a war with us by shooting at us first so we can prove our worth. Pleases start a war with us!


they fear russia pretty much.
 
Actually it's not a clever use of words at all. Clever use would be wherethe deception is not so obvious. The author said ''navies'' in the plural, and even before I finished reading the sentence, I was wondering who it could be other than the USN. When I finished reading the sentence, the dishonesty became obvious. The USN is mightier than the next few navies put together, and nobody disputes that. But other that the USN, there is no other navy that can seriously threathen the Chinese navy, especially near home.

It is true that the PLAN's power projection abilities are rather limited, especially in comparison to the size of the force. That is a doctrinal issue - for instance, I don't understand why China did not attempt to learn carrier aviation sooner. If India can build a carrier today, China could have started building one 20 years back. Or bought one or two from the Soviet Union even before. That would have balanced PLAN's force structure much better.
I think that's because there is no need.

First, US and its alliances have forces in the island chains not far away from China's coast. As long as they are there, Chinese navy could not enter the open ocean. So based on the situation and the strategy China takes now the role of AC is not so important.

Second, even China can enter open ocean, and build ACs, there is no target. Five or ten years ago, there is almost no oversea interests China need to protect with navy. And not like US, we pay no attention to the riots far away from us.

Third, actually, I don't believe that China can build AC 20 years ago, and there is no country from which we can buy one. Our international environment is much worse than India.
 
I think that's because there is no need.

First, US and its alliances have forces in the island chains not far away from China's coast. As long as they are there, Chinese navy could not enter the open ocean. So based on the situation and the strategy China takes now the role of AC is not so important.

Second, even China can enter open ocean, and build ACs, there is no target. Five or ten years ago, there is almost no oversea interests China need to protect with navy. And not like US, we pay no attention to the riots far away from us.

Third, actually, I don't believe that China can build AC 20 years ago, and there is no country from which we can buy one. Our international environment is much worse than India.

Aircraft carriers are not only for projecting power far away - that's what USN uses them for mostly, but smaller navies use it for sea control, to protect the other ships, to give aerial cover to the leet, and to attack enemy ships with fighter jets, which have a longer reach than ships. India or Brazil do not fight wars in faraway places either, but have used carriers to good effect. In the USN, the other ships in the CBG protect the carrier. In the IN and other smaller navies, the carrier and its air wing protect the other ships.

As for the last sentence, what would have stopped China from purchasing a carrier from Russia or the Soviet Union? I'm not sure, but when did the two countries stop having hostile relations?
 
And what amuses me is , the word paper tiger was invented by Chairman Mao, to describe a much stronger rival. It is basically to console oneself.
 
The amount of disrespect we receive from Western analysts is amazing. I really wish some fucking country like Japan grows some ball and starts instigate a war with us by shooting at us first so we can prove our worth. Pleases start a war with us!


Dont worry and dont be in a hurry. Your time will come..
 
Back
Top Bottom