Malala’s attacker was held, freed in 2009: sources

[Icarus]

Hate to say this. But our experience with the Talibaboon clearly shows that these vermin are "enemy combatants" engaged in war against Pakistan.

And thus, we may not be able to try them in civilian courts.

Have any of you been to our lower courts? like district magisterate's or a session judge's?

Those courts are not set up for prosecuting enemy combatants. The prosecutors, the prison guards/police, the judges are powerless in the face of these monsters.

Therefore we must establish military courts and try these animals under military law. After they are tried, they should either be shot, or put in long term "facilities" established in remote areas. We may have to go to UN for a discussion/agreement, but ultimately we have to change the way we are prosecuting enemy combatants. We must.


Otherwise we have to live with the catch-release-Jih@di-attacks/murders-catch-release-murder cycle forever.



peace

With our nation's "The Taliban may be Mass-Murderers but they are still muslims attitude", I'd say that the UN is the least of our worries and the above is easier said than done. The problem is that our people for some reason believe more in the Taliban than they do in their own Govt and Military. Whatever the Taliban did was forced upon them by America and the state and whatever the State is doing is paid for in Dollars. With this mentality, our people will continue to die and frankly, with this attitude, I'd say it's nature's dynamics at work!

 

[Awesome]

So much for 'lanat' on the faces of government, political parties, courts as well civilians.

Lack of evidence is not court's fault. Its the fault of the police/prosecution/CSI/security forces, not courts.

Its better to let 10 suspects go free than to jail one innocent one. Go fix your LEAs your courts are fine.

 

[Icarus]

Lack of evidence is not court's fault. Its the fault of the police/prosecution/CSI/security forces, not courts.

Its better to let 10 suspects go free than to jail one innocent one. Go fix your LEAs your courts are fine.

The judiciary has never said no to a trial for terrorists. But the only option is trial, not indefinite detainment as has been the style of our LEAs who can't do basic CSI so bass arrest karke daba lo banday ko

Why do you think after every high profile incident we see 70 people arrested, 100 people arrested. Thats just stupid and doesn't give any result. They may be very good at knowing who did it, but their job does not end till they get that person properly prosecuted.

I repeat courts are doing what they are supposed to do. Imagine if they started jailing people against whom there was no case. Rabia Imran phir bakery walay ki dhulai nahi karay gi, usko seedha Guantanamo Bay bhijwayegi.

I am inclined to disagree with that statement. If that were the case then how is it that Moulvi Umer and Muslim Khan are still on trial? There's no shortage of evidence against these men as they were former spokesmen for the TTP and have practically pleaded guilty to every terrorist activity carried out during their time in the TTP. The reason that NOT ONE terrorist has been sentenced to death in over a decade is because the judges/witnesses and prosecutors fear for their safety and that of their families and in doing so, help these animals find their way back to mainstream society. They then extract vengeance on the soldiers/intel officers and locals that helped bring them in.

 

[Awesome]

A practical demonstration of what happens when your judiciary does not try terrorists and you grill the Army/Intel for holding them anyway....................There was a similar incident when the planner of the RA Bazar Blast was acquitted by the courts and later went on to plan/execute the assassination of Surgeon General AMC Mushtaq Ahmed Baig.

The judiciary has never said no to a trial for terrorists. But the only option is trial, not indefinite detainment as has been the style of our LEAs who can't do basic CSI so bass arrest karke daba lo banday ko

Why do you think after every high profile incident we see 70 people arrested, 100 people arrested. Thats just stupid and doesn't give any result. They may be very good at knowing who did it, but their job does not end till they get that person properly prosecuted.

I repeat courts are doing what they are supposed to do. Imagine if they started jailing people against whom there was no case. Rabia Imran phir bakery walay ki dhulai nahi karay gi, usko seedha Guantanamo Bay bhijwayegi.

 

[Awesome]

I am inclined to disagree with that statement. If that were the case then how is it that Moulvi Umer and Muslim Khan are still on trial? There's no shortage of evidence against these men as they were former spokesmen for the TTP and have practically pleaded guilty to every terrorist activity carried out during their time in the TTP. The reason that NOT ONE terrorist has been sentenced to death in over a decade is because the judges/witnesses and prosecutors fear for their safety and that of their families and in doing so, help these animals find their way back to mainstream society. They then extract vengeance on the soldiers/intel officers and locals that helped bring them in.

I'm not familiar with the trial, where is it taking place?

But most likely the provisions in the law are allowing their defence to raise reasonable doubt. Prosecution may be also going for a specific charge that they are finding hard to prove.

 

[Last Hope]

Lack of evidence is not court's fault. Its the fault of the police/prosecution/CSI/security forces, not courts.

Its better to let 10 suspects go free than to jail one innocent one. Go fix your LEAs your courts are fine.

Asim, what other evidence is required that the person was captured in a war zone, when all other civilians were evacuated, and the only person left behind were fighters? Adding to that, the person was caught in the hot zone, where security forces engaged for several days and after breaking through the barrier, these men were sitting luxuriously, with heavy weapons, maps of the area and mobile communication devices?

Next time the army engages anywhere in Waziristan, the men who surrendered after fierce fighting with white flag, fire-arms laying all over the place, must be cross-checked to be terrorists? Is it written on their Nation ID card as 'Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan activist' or what? What kind of proof do you want?

 

[Icarus]

I'm not familiar with the trial, where is it taking place?

But most likely the provisions in the law are allowing their defence to raise reasonable doubt. Prosecution may be also going for a specific charge that they are finding hard to prove.

Last I heard in 2010, Muslim Khan was to be produced before the Peshawar High Court but due to fear of a militant attack such as on the convoy transporting Sufi Muhammad, a High Court Judge presided over the court hearing at some undisclosed location.

 

[FaujHistorian]

The judiciary has never said no to a trial for terrorists. But the only option is trial, not indefinite detainment as has been the style of our LEAs .....

I respectfully differ on this.

let me first provide an example of the sham trial in civilian courts and then suggest what the solution is.

This example is not from remote hillside cave in Wazirastan, but right from the middle of Islamabad.

We had all the TV cameras and experts right on the spot, where evidence was available by the truckloads.

Two Jih@di pigs (pardon my french), the Ghazi brothers lead a war against our beloved country aka Pakistan. These enemy combatants fought, and killed our soldiers and officers including the SSG Lt Col Haroon-ul-Islam.

One pig Mullee ghazi was sent to hell, but other tried to escape wearing burqa. His big fat @rse gave way and he was picked out and arrested.

Why is he free?

While our beloved officer Haroon is under 6 feet of dirt? While Haroon's children are yateem, but pig-Mullah-Ghazi roaming in Pakistan?

Which of the societies allow the killer of their precious soldiers go free? Only in Pakistan. Only here.


Then sadly, these are precisely the situations being repeated 1000s of times.

And yet so little is being accomplished through civilian courts. Who should we blame? our dead soldiers? our judges (who are too scared of the Mullees), our attorneys who are mostly the supporters of Jamat Islami? Who?


This is why we must invoke international law against enemy combatants, and either shoot or at least detain the likes of Ghazi forever.


For ordinary Pakistani, it is clear as a day that pig-Mullah combatants will go free, so they obviously will side with Mullahs. Not because of Islam, but out of fear.

They see Mulle-combatants as stronger than our army. They see Mullees can kill our officers and go free.

The day we start putting away f@t pigs like Ghazi, and put them away for a long long time, and we start shooting the attackers of Malala, then guess what, ordinary Pakistani will continue to side with enemy combatants, out of their own fear, out of their own concerns.


This is why, we must allow military trials of enemy combatants.

We may have to swallow the bitter pill, and oppose leftists and Islamists world over. But we must take control of our country, and our destiny. otherwise

Hamari dastan tuk na rahay gi
Dastano main


peace

 

[KingMamba]

That is why Pakistan NEEDS the army to take over, the people may not want it but the country sure as hell needs it. If Zardari actually wanted to prevent any situation like that to occur and had any balls he would declare a state of emergency in Karachi and pass an emergency presidential decree that no weapons are allowed in Karachi both light and heavy and everyone has 5 days to throw their weapons on the streets, then send the rangers in to mop them up and if anyone is found with a weapon they are enemies of the state and hung immediately (in public, want to bet how many MQM would be hung ). Next he should decree that TTP and BLA are enemies of the state and that anyone who associates with them automatically revoke their own citizenship with the IR of Pakistan and therefore deserve no trial and will be hung immediately.

If he had the guts to push through any of these two moves the security situation would improve drastically and who knows maybe foreigners would start investing in Pakistan again.

Got a little of topic there but eh.

 

[Jango]

The judiciary has never said no to a trial for terrorists. But the only option is trial, not indefinite detainment as has been the style of our LEAs who can't do basic CSI so bass arrest karke daba lo banday ko

Why do you think after every high profile incident we see 70 people arrested, 100 people arrested. Thats just stupid and doesn't give any result. They may be very good at knowing who did it, but their job does not end till they get that person properly prosecuted.

I repeat courts are doing what they are supposed to do. Imagine if they started jailing people against whom there was no case. Rabia Imran phir bakery walay ki dhulai nahi karay gi, usko seedha Guantanamo Bay bhijwayegi.

Questioning 100 odd people broadens your base, and gives you a wider of range of people to question regarding the activity in question. More people= more chance of getting an accurate description.

As for the lack of evidence, yes that is an issue. But in some cases like Icarus mentioned, and the Lal Masjid Mullah case, what more evidence do you need? What more evidence do you need other than the guy being head of the mosque doing illegal activities? What more evidence do you need against a guy caught from the mountains, or planting a bomb, or making a bomb.

As Icarus mentioned, a major problem is safety of the judges and other men involved. They fear for their lives, after convicting somebody (very rarely), they go into hiding or go abroad.

The case of Rabia Imran you mentioned doesn't really fit here IMO. There is a world of difference between sentencing a robber or a single serial killer and a TTP/allied outfits militant. The method we are proposing is for a militant caught from a war-zone where there are active military operations and terrorist activities. Not for a mafia killer in Karachi or some serial killer in Lahore.

 

[FaujHistorian]

That is why Pakistan NEEDS the army to take over, the people may not want it but the country sure as hell needs it. If Zardari actually wanted to prevent any situation like that to occur and had any balls .

Hold your horses your majesty King Mamba!


Let's not do the lose talk.

We are just discussing the idea of military courts, but in no circumstances the idea of "military takeover" of the country.


Absolutely not!

I am no fan of Zardari the 10%.

But I'll give the credit where credit is due.

Without zardari, and without its political ally ANP, the situation in FATA and PATA would have been 1000 times worse.

political governments provide the much needed and extremely important protective and legal cover to the army operations.


The day the political cover is gone, the same army the saviors of the country are dragged around as "looters".

So no way. not again.

The only thing needed is the political support for military trials of enemy combatants. Nothing more. Army needs to be fully focused on fighting the combatants, and should not be burdened for managing the whole country of 200 million people.


peace

 

[KingMamba]

Hold your horses your majesty King Mamba!


Let's not do the lose talk.

We are just discussing the idea of military courts, but in no circumstances the idea of "military takeover" of the country.


Absolutely not!

I am no fan of Zardari the 10%.

But I'll give the credit where credit is due.

Without zardari, and without its political ally ANP, the situation in FATA and PATA would have been 1000 times worse.

political governments provide the much needed and extremely important protective and legal cover to the army operations.


The day the political cover is gone, the same army the saviors of the country are dragged around as "looters".

So no way. not again.

The only thing needed is the political support for military trials of enemy combatants. Nothing more. Army needs to be fully focused on fighting the combatants, and should not be burdened for managing the whole country of 200 million people.


peace

Fine I am willing to concede a takeover is not necessary but the two changes I described above should be implemented or do you disagree with that as well? Also, what are your views for the next elections of Pakistan who do you believe is the right or safe choice? As for Zardari making things 1000 times better in FATA I tend to disagree, how can that man get anything done considering he spends most of his time hiding out in the presidential palace??

 

[Awesome]

Asim, what other evidence is required that the person was captured in a war zone, when all other civilians were evacuated, and the only person left behind were fighters? Adding to that, the person was caught in the hot zone, where security forces engaged for several days and after breaking through the barrier, these men were sitting luxuriously, with heavy weapons, maps of the area and mobile communication devices?

Next time the army engages anywhere in Waziristan, the men who surrendered after fierce fighting with white flag, fire-arms laying all over the place, must be cross-checked to be terrorists? Is it written on their Nation ID card as 'Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan activist' or what? What kind of proof do you want?

I can only comment when court proceedings are brought in front of me. I've seen Supreme Court proceedings of Missing Persons case where CJP was on the money on demanding proof and sab LEAs sar jhuka ke bethay huay thay and daant kha rahay thay for brutally beating up a Quran bechnay wala...

Obviously it goes both ways. Courts have to follow the law and act accordingly.

For example the case that you presented.

Terrorist caught and brought to court. This is how I imagine most Prosecutions take place because of our bad CSI work

Judge: Present the charges
Prosecution: Leading a terrorist organization
Judge: How do you pleed?
Defence: Not Guilty
Judge: Present the case against him
P: He was caught in Swat!
D: He was wrongfully arrested, he was there sight seeing! He doesn't have links with a terrorist organization
P: He has ordered several hits on Pakistan
D: Your proof?
P: We caught him with a gun!
D: It was for his protection
P: He didn't have a license for a gun
D: Yeah his bad, but is this a case for unlicensed weapon? Do you have any witness that says they took orders from him?
P: Errr no.
J: No case, defendent is free to go.

Have you seen how India does it? You precisely know the charges against a terrorist, the arguments raised in court and lots of eye witness testimonials. India does nothing fancy, just basic work. Since these guys are not committing well planned crimes (in the sense that they intend to get away with it), its very easy to prove guilt. But our people are just that darn lazy.

Remember when Baradar was arrested? Kahin ka kahin banday ko gol kardia tha, and we didn't know anything about him, except for what NYTimes leaked out. How much time was spent on prosecuting Baradar than was in interrogating him?

I'm pretty sure our LEAs indulge in a lot of chitrol which itself negates almost every confession since its under duress.

You should be lameting the LEAs who are still operating like its the 19th century. Kaam iss tarhan se karna chahiye ke koi uske aagay choon na karsakay. What is our method? Danda, chitrol, "teri aisi ki taisi".

 

[Awesome]

The case of Rabia Imran you mentioned doesn't really fit here IMO. There is a world of difference between sentencing a robber or a single serial killer and a TTP/allied outfits militant.

The difference only appears after guilt is proven. Otherwise all both the things are an accusation.

You want courts to start handing out sentences just because someone makes an accusation against them?

 

[Awesome]

Everything has to be dealt case by case.

By the way its dreadfully wrong to say we don't have any convictions on terrorism. One of our ex-Mods actually took it upon himself to meticulously document terrorism convictions. We have a pretty extensive thread on that.

Who are those judges who don't care about their lives and are giving sentences against terrorists till now?

This no conviction bull crap is typical Indian propaganda. Humara media thaka hua hai, that doesn't highlight things properly. Convictions are there, where they fail are ALWAYS the fault of the prosecution. Koi tees maar khaan defence lawyer unko nahi bacha raha.