Major Indian cities to get missile defence shield

[Proud to be Pakistani]

DRDO is a Gap Filler ....

 

[IceCold]

What an unbelievable irony and so desperation in proving DRDO a failed establishment, isn’t it? Couldn’t seen successful ABM system and hence justifying emotional unease by giving examples of all other DRDO’s delayed project.

Pls do tell me what is the way of describing decade old project?

And Offcourse, IAF and IA have serious doubts and unwillingness in not only homegrown project but also in Foreign products that are on their wishlist.

Regarding your imaginative thinking judging our proud factor, you don’t have that wisdom.

Showing tiny achievements into a huge success and proving DRDO as a successfull organization is all what i am getting from your post. Intercepting a higly modified version of the prithvi, which even itself wasnt called a successful SRBM and comparing it with shaheen and ghauri series and proving how successful DRDO is, surely makes me wonder is that your lack of knowlege or you are just ignorant. Proving on numerous occasions the failures that DRDO faced and is still facing with arjun and LCA two of the most ambitious projects and the rejection wasnt made by pakistan but your own army and airforce, and yet you for some reason stand here to prove that IA and IAF is not more then a bunch of fools who have showed on numerous occasions their reluctantance in inducting arjun and lca, just makes you look stupid. Whenever an article is pasted here and that too from indian inventory, you say its old, what is there to believe in then? Some internet kid i guess who out of his patriotism just couldnt get his facts right and is here just to prove his point unaware of the facts.
And also please let us know what foreign projects did the IA or IAF put doubts about in comparision to arjun and LCA? If i remember correctly they wanted to induct more T-90 against arjun and just because LCA wasnt deliver in time and lacked the performance DRDO promised, mig-21 also known as the flying coffins had to be upgraded as a stopgap until some sort of replacements could be made possible.

 

[con]

What is stopping you from shooting a subsonic cruise missile and subsonic AshM missile is the ability to detect before its to late.

First and foremost they are subsonic means they are just like a **** fighter jets without missile firing ability.If SAM can bring down aircrafts,then these subsonic missile can be brought down as well.
Second your point about "detect before it is too late". Do you know that Iraqis have managed to down Tomahawks with anti-aircrafts guns! Which means on detection,there is more than enough time to bring them down.

Now your "not able to detect". It is a thing of past. Cruise missile was difficult to detect by ground based radar due to over the horizon issue.
How is that a problem for air borne radars? Did you ever see an image drawn by a SAR? A cruise missile is now easily detected by aircrafts with AESA,AWACS, airship based radars etc.
For example after an AWACS has detected,all it has to do is cue a data-linked SAM towards the cruise missile and it is history!

For air-launched cruise,you detect the aircraft launching it.Gives ample time for your defences to get ready!

BM's are very hard to intercept also but some success has been achieved in before re-entering earth atmosphere altitude. Still it is hard to Intercept BM with 100% accuracy in Boast phase and in Terminal phase. Intercept avoidance is not a prime guidance feature of Ballastic Missile, Rather it is the speed that is the difference between ballastic missile that make them more lethal. Solid fuelled missile as used by Pakistan are more speedy then the liquid fueled missiles, Solid fuel based MRBMs or IRBMs are very hard to Intercept also.

Does an liquid BM come at slower speed than solid BM during re-entry?
What difference does the fuel make to re-entry speed?
Google and find out the amount of hits THAAD has achieved against BMs.
You would be surprised.

 

[con]

Showing tiny achievements into a huge success and proving DRDO as a successfull organization is all what i am getting from your post. Intercepting a higly modified version of the prithvi, which even itself wasnt called a successful SRBM and comparing it with shaheen and ghauri series and proving how successful DRDO is, surely makes me wonder is that your lack of knowlege or you are just ignorant.

What do you think was it modified to?

 

[KENT]

Showing tiny achievements into a huge success and proving DRDO as a successfull organization is all what i am getting from your post. Intercepting a higly modified version of the prithvi, which even itself wasnt called a successful SRBM and comparing it with shaheen and ghauri series and proving how successful DRDO is, surely makes me wonder is that your lack of knowlege or you are just ignorant. Proving on numerous occasions the failures that DRDO faced and is still facing with arjun and LCA two of the most ambitious projects and the rejection wasnt made by pakistan but your own army and airforce, and yet you for some reason stand here to prove that IA and IAF is not more then a bunch of fools who have showed on numerous occasions their reluctantance in inducting arjun and lca, just makes you look stupid. Whenever an article is pasted here and that too from indian inventory, you say its old, what is there to believe in then? Some internet kid i guess who out of his patriotism just couldnt get his facts right and is here just to prove his point unaware of the facts.
And also please let us know what foreign projects did the IA or IAF put doubts about in comparision to arjun and LCA? If i remember correctly they wanted to induct more T-90 against arjun and just because LCA wasnt deliver in time and lacked the performance DRDO promised, mig-21 also known as the flying coffins had to be upgraded as a stopgap until some sort of replacements could be made possible.

Tiny achievements of DRDO, offcourse they are, but unfortunately according to your level of thinking and standard of acuity and nobody have any bearing on it. Just tell me how many countries in the world have accomplished the triumph in project like ABM?



Modified version of SRBM Prithvi. Some simple questions, how did you know about that? Did you invited by the DRDO personally to have check in it? Or Did you come across any of such article? Or may be it is your routine harping to justify the useless reckoning.



Comparision of SRBM like Prithvi with Shaheen and Ghauri, offcourse we have that privilege to compare as long as, since the country which do not even have the competence to build and launch its own SLV. About my ignorance, definetly I am ignorant and patriotism, since every individual do possess certain degree of ignorance, but saying that intercepted version of prithvi was modified without having any link, source and wishful thinking is purly termed as narrow mindedness and blind folded patriotism.



Failure on numerous occasion, definitely because such mark of distinction is only available to those country who try and failed but never give up. US, Russia, France, UK, China, Germany have all such honor of failure and hence they are far far superior to all others. You can’t realize such actuality because you are not so fortunate of having an association with failure and resultant success. And hence DRDO with numerous failure have managed to achieve such landmark feet in ABM project.



Rejection by the IAF and IA to LCA and ARJUN, Man go and have a cup of tea or you seems to have some serious comprehension problem or habit of ignoring the facts to suit your own sensitivity. Because reluctantancy with such project doesn’t indirectly translet into rejection. Still order for 124 Arjun MBT as well as 20-40 LCA is intact and if you still want to ignore it then I am not here to feed you anymore justification.



Orders of more T-90 is only because of its lower cost as well as strong Russian influence over our Indian Defence lobby and corrupt politician and addition to it constant customery changes in Arjun to suit everchanging IA technological requirements. But on technical front there are many editorial as well army personnel have acknowledged that in recent trial Arjun had outperformed both T-90 and T-72.





Regarding IAF and IA foreign weapon rejection, IAF has rejected Russian Awacs A-50 as well as Jet trainer offering from Brajilian Embraer as well as Italian SIAI MARCHETTI. IA has rejected 197 light helicopter deal as well as Soltham, denal, and bofors 155 mm field guns which they have pitaching hard to grab the order of IA’s Field gun requirements, but even after so many years of field trial and test in Indian condition, they have shown back seat. Unfortunately they could not prove their competence on par with IA requirements. If someone incline to thought according to you, all the above Foreign weapons are subject of obsolete.



For stop gaps, how can upgrade of Mig-21 bison could be compared with vast and ambitious project like LCA, the concept of LCA is all about acceleration as well to stream line the augmentation of Indian aviation industry which has definitely bear the fruit in the form of Su-30MKI,IJT,SARAS,JAGUAR and Mig-27 upgrade on by own as well as host of all other ECM,Radar and communication suits . Do bear in your mind, stop gaps are temporary in nature and there is not anything special to harp about. Without prior experience as well as series of hiccups in Arjun and LCA, Indians are not willing to give up and this is what exactly proved to be hard for you to digest, the distinction of which unfortunately not seen by far in your own backyard.



It seems me that your eyes have dazzled with the shine of Successful launch of ABM project, can’t seen from your eyes the association of DRDO with this test and hence go and come up with anyother uncommon creative harping about LCA and Arjun.

 

[KENT]

Smashing hit

T.S. SUBRAMANIAN
The DRDO’s Advanced Air Defence missile propels India into a select group of countries with the ability to intercept ballistic missiles.
PTI


THERE was applause at first, followed by five minutes of silence as missile technologists of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) scanned the consoles in front of them. After 25 seconds of tension, a deafening applause broke out in the Mission Control Centre (MCC) on Wheeler Island, 17 kilometres from Dhamra on the Orissa coast. The atmosphere turned electric as the young men and women missile technologists went delirious with joy. Full-throated cries of “DRDO zindabad”, “Three cheers to DRDO” and “Hip, hip hooray” filled the room as vigorous handshaking and warm hugs added to the celebratory mood. “Gentlemen,” announced V.K. Saraswat, Mission Director, “many nations have done the interception in exo-atmosphere [between 40 km and 75 km above the earth]. But a direct hit in endo-atmosphere [at an altitude of 15 km to 30 km] is something fantastic. It is unbelievable…. It is phenomenal.”
On December 6, 2007, when the DRDO’s interceptor missile called Advanced Air Defence (AAD-02) scored a direct hit on an incoming, modified Prithvi missile, it propelled India into a select group of three countries with the ability to intercept ballistic missiles. The countries that already have this capability are the United States, Russia and Israel. According to Saraswat, the modified Prithvi missile that played the role of attacker “mimicked” the trajectory of M-9 and M-11 ballistic missiles, “which are with our adversaries”.
The sequence of events was as follows. At 11 a.m. the single-stage “attacker” Prithvi missile lifted off from its mobile launcher (a Tatra truck) in Launch Complex III at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur, near Balasore, Orissa. At once, radars at Konark and Paradip, both in Orissa, swung into action, located the target missile while it was climbing and communicated information about its velocity and position in real time to the MCC. The MCC, in turn, classified the target missile as a ballistic missile and assigned the task of intercepting it to the AAD-02 launcher battery located on Wheeler Island, 70 km across the sea from Chandipur. The MCC quickly calculated the trajectory of the incoming missile and where it would impact. This information was conveyed from the MCC to the AAD-02 launcher battery through a mobile communication terminal, which is a bank of sophisticated computers located on a massive truck.
After the attacker missile reached its apogee of 110 km, the command for the interceptor, AAD-02, to lift off was given. The interceptor erupted into life five minutes after the attacker lifted off. The interceptor was equipped with inertial navigation, control and guidance systems. More importantly, it had on board a radio-frequency seeker. Acting as the “eye” of the interceptor, the seeker calculated the velocity, position and direction of the “enemy” missile. The seeker conveyed all this information to the computers on board the interceptor, and the computers instructed the interceptor to manoeuvre itself towards the target. And before one had time to clap, the AAD-02 homed in on the target and made a direct hit at an altitude of 15 km. The attacker was shot down during the terminal stage of its flight. The interception took place when the target missile was in free fall at a speed of about Mach 3 (that is, three times the speed of sound) and the interceptor was travelling at more than Mach 4.
An ecstatic Saraswat, who is Chief Controller, DRDO R&D (Missiles and Strategic Systems), called the mission “a dream come true”. He said: “The data received in real time from the radars demonstrated the formation of a large number of tracks, signifying that the target had broken into multiple pieces and that the debris was tracked by the radars. The thermal cameras located on Wheeler Island also picked up the direct hit through thermal images. The achievement of a direct hit against a high-speed target demonstrates the capability of the AAD missile system to intercept targets up to a range of 2,000 km. It also signifies the development of complex guidance, control, navigation and propulsion systems; radars, seekers, computer, command, control and communication systems; robust communication networking; software development; and so on.”
Saraswat summed up the significance of the mission thus: “The successful interception certainly confirms the capability of India to defend itself against incoming ballistic missiles. We can assure the nation today that the DRDO has the technology to develop a potent missile shield for the country.”
M. Natarajan, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, compared the interception to “hitting a bullet with another bullet” and attributed the success of the mission to the “pioneering work” done by young DRDO professionals. Natarajan, who is also Secretary and Director General, DRDO R&D, watched the lift-off of both the target and attacker missiles and the interception live on a video link provided at DRDO Bhavan, New Delhi.
Avinash Chander, Director, Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL), Hyderabad, described it as “a tremendous mission and a tremendous moment”. He added: “What we have achieved today is something unheard of. I don’t think any country has been able to launch a missile and hit it the first time…. The interceptor crossed the target missile at the correct point. The target missile went into fragments thereafter.”
The target missile was a modified, single-stage Prithvi, fuelled by liquid propellants. To suit the requirements of this mission, the control system of Prithvi was modified so that it could reach an altitude of more than 100 km. The modified Prithvi was 11 metres tall and weighed five tonnes. Its diameter was 1 m. Its launch, in this instance, was carried out in an independent manner by the Army, which already has Prithvi-I and Prithvi-II missiles. The interceptor was, however, “a totally new missile”, 7.5 m tall, weighing 1.3 tonnes and with a diameter of 0.5 m. It was fuelled by solid propellants.
While Saraswat was the Mission Director at Wheeler Island for the interceptor missile, D.S. Reddy was the Vehicle Director. For the “attacker” missile, Lieutenant General (retired) V.J. Sundaram was Mission Director-Coordinator.
The successful interception confirms that India has taken the first few decisive steps forward on the road to acquiring a ballistic missile defence shield. The interception in the endo-atmosphere was carried out as part of the DRDO’s quest to build a two-tiered ballistic missile defence shield. On November 27, 2006, India’s interceptor missile called Prithvi Air Defence (PAD) intercepted an incoming Prithvi-II missile at an altitude of 50 km. That was also a direct hit.
On December 2, 2007, AAD-01 intercepted a simulated electronic missile at an altitude of 15 km above the Bay of Bengal. The electronic missile was launched from Chandipur and the interceptor from Wheeler Island. That is, electronic signals that mimicked the trajectory of an enemy ballistic missile were sent. And the interceptor, which was a real missile, took off, manoeuvred itself close to the electronic trajectory and extinguished the “enemy missile” by “proximity killing” (as opposed to a “hit to kill” or a direct hit).
Informed sources warned that although these two tests, in the exo-atmosphere and the endo-atmosphere, were successful, what India had today “is only an essential module for a possible ballistic missile shield” and that it would take several more tests for India to have a credible ballistic missile defence shield.
Although Israeli and French radars were used in the mission on December 6, what was amazing was the highly sophisticated software developed by DRDO’s young software professionals. Natarajan, who took pains to emphasise the importance of the high-end software developed by the DRDO’s young team, said, “This is hard core engineering-related software, not BPO [business process outsourcing] software. It shows the significant capability of networking massive software linked to hardware actuation.… If you can do this for a missile, you can do it for civil aviation.”
Saraswat, who traced the evolution of these two interceptor missions, said they began as a concept in 1997 when A.P.J. Abdul Kalam (then DRDO chief and Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister) asked whether it would be possible to intercept a Prithvi missile with an Akash missile (while Prithvi is a surface-to-surface missile, Akash is a surface-to-air missile).
The project itself began in 1998. There were discussions as to whether Akash could be modified, but it was decided that Akash would not do as an interceptor. After the radars were chosen, the interceptor had to be configured. Marathon discussions took place on whether the interceptor should be fashioned out of Prithvi or Agni-1.
“The whole process was difficult because the technologies were complex, starting from the choice of radars,” Saraswat said. It was a difficult journey setting up the radar stations, indigenising the radars, developing the mission control software, and so on.
“Imagine, if we did not have the radars, we would not have known that the actual interception had taken place,” he said.
Several DRDO units and private industries contributed to the mission. The Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) in Hyderabad provided the mission control software. The Research Centre, Imarat (RCI), Hyderabad, another DRDO unit, provided the navigation, electromechanical actuation systems, the seeker on board the interceptor, and so on, all of which ensured the direct hit. The ASL provided the motors, jet vanes and structures for the two missiles.
The High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL), Pune, also a part of the DRDO, supplied the propellants for the missiles. The ITR at Chandipur and Wheeler Island, headed by S.P. Dash, its Director, provided the range. Saraswat praised the ITR for the quality of its instrumentation. Programme Air Defence carried out the configuration of the AAD-02 missile. Indian Air Force personnel did a marvellous job of manning the radars. Several private industries, such as L & T and Vem Technologies Private Limited, Hyderabad, also made important contributions to the mission.
The DRDO has now set its sights higher. It wants to take up “the harder challenges” of engaging an Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM), launching two missiles in the exo-atmosphere and the endo-atmosphere against a single target missile, and so on. A happy Saraswat asserted, “Today, the DRDO is in a mission mode with Agni-III, Air Defence, Astra and is preparing for the short-range surface-to-air missile, which is in the conceptual stage, that can be used by all the three services. In this, we have not included the on-going programmes such as BrahMos, Akash and Nag.”



Truly an unbelievable milestone.

 

[Astra]

No need to get into lenghty discussions but should say that put the shield in and stay safe, Feel safe and think safe, but when it starts raining Shaheen, Ghauri and Babur then donot come out in open otherwise you will get really Wet.

Peace !

Getting wet? What is the umbrella developed for?

 

[Neo]

Air borne radars. Cruise missile are difficult to detect using land based radar not airborne radar. AESA radars on F-18,Bars radar are optimized for detecting low flying objects.

US & Russians have been building cruise missile for decades. Solution already exists for shooting cruise missiles. If ships can shoot down water hugging ASHM,why cant there be a system for shooting down cruise missiles?

Thanks for your reply Con, I don't doubt the capacity of AESA radars. But none of these systems is yet inducted by India, yet the DRDO scientists are claiming to have the capabilityh to shoot down terrain hugging cruise missiles.
I remain sceptical, I'll have to see a test or two to believe that India has captured the ability to build a defence shield.

I wonder if a stealthy cruise missile like Ra'ad can be detected by advanced AESA radar.
Do we have prove that stealthy cruise missiles were detected and destroyed by AESA equipped jets?

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Thanks for your reply Con, I don't doubt the capacity of AESA radars. But none of these systems is yet inducted by India, yet the DRDO scientists are claiming to have the capabilityh to shoot down terrain hugging cruise missiles.
I remain sceptical, I'll have to see a test or two to believe that India has captured the ability to build a defence shield.

I wonder if a stealthy cruise missile like Ra'ad can be detected by advanced AESA radar.
Do we have prove that stealthy cruise missiles were detected and destroyed by AESA equipped jets?

That's the point, none of the ABM systems deployed in the entire world, have been tested against cruise missiles, only tested against SSMs and ASMs, some tested against IRBMs and ICBMs, but mind that only few are operational against IRBMs and none against ICBMs. PAC-3, S-300, S-400 and Arrow all have been tested against MRBM's and have little kill ratio..

Some one be kind enough to post a link suggesting any ABM missile system tested against Cruise Missiles....

 

[Astra]

Thanks for your reply Con, I don't doubt the capacity of AESA radars. But none of these systems is yet inducted by India, yet the DRDO scientists are claiming to have the capabilityh to shoot down terrain hugging cruise missiles.
I remain sceptical, I'll have to see a test or two to believe that India has captured the ability to build a defence shield.

I wonder if a stealthy cruise missile like Ra'ad can be detected by advanced AESA radar.
Do we have prove that stealthy cruise missiles were detected and destroyed by AESA equipped jets?

DRDO has not yet developed an interceptor for Cruise missiles. They are only saying that the missile shield will be capable of it. Maybe its in the development stage. Well india has already tested twice, one in exo and one in endo atmosphere, both against ballistic missiles. Can I know what is it that
prevents you from beliving?

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

DRDO has not yet developed an interceptor for Cruise missiles. They are only saying that the missile shield will be capable of it. Maybe its in the development stage. Well india has already tested twice, one in exo and one in endo atmosphere, both against ballistic missiles. Can I know what is it that
prevents you from beliving?

Nothing is preventing us from believing the facts...

That none of the ABM systems are 100% successful even against Ballastic Missiles of Today.

ABM Systems are a sorry story against even Ballastic Missiles...

Against Cruise Missile Name one Interceptor System TESTED..

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Getting wet? What is the umbrella developed for?

Try your Umbrella Under Acid Rain....

 

[con]

Thanks for your reply Con, I don't doubt the capacity of AESA radars. But none of these systems is yet inducted by India, yet the DRDO scientists are claiming to have the capabilityh to shoot down terrain hugging cruise missiles.
I remain sceptical, I'll have to see a test or two to believe that India has captured the ability to build a defence shield.

I wonder if a stealthy cruise missile like Ra'ad can be detected by advanced AESA radar.
Do we have prove that stealthy cruise missiles were detected and destroyed by AESA equipped jets?

Neo,
DRDO chief in his recent interview had clearly said that it is in the process of developing such a system. So far India has just built the SAM that can do the job of shooting the missile. Plus it has Aerostat radar.
However India is yet to integrate these system to form an effective solution.

Let me put in some details. India has been investing heavily in radar system in recent times. Airborne Aerostat,AWACS,BARS are all optomise to detect low flying objects. All they require is a datalinked SAM and que it to the incoming cruise missile.
In this aspect the recent SAM tests by DRDO are very interesting. Particularly Akash. MOD press briefing stated the recent test was part of net centric user trials by IAF. Add to this the trials were all low height,hitting UAV and receding target.

AFP: Nuclear India moves closer to missile defence shield

What this would mean is India would have a low cost datalinked missile like Akash which can ge linked with the airborne detection system. Akash does not have on board guidance.It is datalinked by the radar. Now imagine if Akash can be driven by a AWACS,you have a solution for cruise missile.

Hence as I said India has the bits and piece,not the complete system.As the DRDO chief has said in couple of years this should be available as well.

Now the shealth PGM. If we take an example of F-22, they are VLO aircraft. F-22 can be detected by a BARS radar.But at say 15-20 km,by the time as we all know, the aircraft carrying the BARS would be dead.
If we apply the same concept to shealth PGM,they can be detected with high powered radar,but at lower range.If a SAM can be built for a very fast reaction, we would have a solution for it as well. Can a aircraft use it's short range AAM,probably. There are lot of possible solution.

The difference b/w F-22 & shealth PGM, PGM cant hit back

 

[con]

Nothing is preventing us from believing the facts...

That none of the ABM systems are 100% successful even against Ballastic Missiles of Today.

ABM Systems are a sorry story against even Ballastic Missiles...

Against Cruise Missile Name one Interceptor System TESTED..

Recently USAF F-16 hit an BM with a AIM-9x. Solutions are already moving from land based to other forms. It is would naive to think BM cannot be intercepted in the future.

 

[con]

Thanks for your reply Con, I don't doubt the capacity of AESA radars. But none of these systems is yet inducted by India, yet the DRDO scientists are claiming to have the capabilityh to shoot down terrain hugging cruise missiles.
I remain sceptical, I'll have to see a test or two to believe that India has captured the ability to build a defence shield.

I wonder if a stealthy cruise missile like Ra'ad can be detected by advanced AESA radar.
Do we have prove that stealthy cruise missiles were detected and destroyed by AESA equipped jets?

Neo,
DRDO chief in his recent interview had clearly said that it is in the process of developing such a system. So far India has just built the SAM that can do the job of shooting the missile. Plus it has Aerostat radar.
However India is yet to integrate these system to form an effective solution.

Let me put in some details. India has been investing heavily in radar system in recent times. Airborne Aerostat,AWACS,BARS are all optomise to detect low flying objects. All they require is a datalinked SAM and que it to the incoming cruise missile.
In this aspect the recent SAM tests by DRDO are very interesting. Particularly Akash. MOD press briefing stated the recent test was part of net centric user trials by IAF. Add to this the trials were all low height,hitting UAV and receding target.

What this would mean is India would have a low cost datalinked missile like Akash which can ge linked with the airborne detection system. Akash does not have on board guidance.It is datalinked by the radar. Now imagine if Akash can be driven by a AWACS,you have a solution for cruise missile.

Hence as I said India has the bits and piece,not the complete system.As the DRDO chief has said in couple of years this should be available as well.

Now the shealth PGM. If we take an example of F-22, they are VLO aircraft. F-22 can be detected by a BARS radar.But at say 15-20 km,by the time as we all know, the aircraft carrying the BARS would be dead.
If we apply the same concept to shealth PGM,they can be detected with high powered radar,but at lower range.If a SAM can be built for a very fast reaction, we would have a solution for it as well. Can a aircraft use it's short range AAM,probably. There are lot of possible solution.

The difference b/w F-22 & shealth PGM, PGM cant hit back