Major DRDO projects behind schedule: Antony

[RPK]

Business Line : Industry & Economy / Government & Policy : Major DRDO projects behind schedule: Antony


NEW DELHI, MARCH 13:
Major projects of the DRDO, including Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and airborne early warning system, are running behind schedule by up to 13 years.

This information was furnished in Rajya Sabha today by the Defence Minister A.K. Antony in response to questions.

Giving details, he said the probable date of completion of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Phase-II is up to March 2015 against the original schedule of December 2008 while that of Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) System to March 2014 from October 2011.

Similarly, the probable date of completion of Naval Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Navy) Phase-I is December 2014 against March 2010 and that of Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAM) to December 2015 from May 2011.

In case of Aero-engine Kaveri, the date has been extended within the sanctioned cost and scope. The original date was December 1996 which has been revised to December 2009.

Antony said reasons for delay include ab-initio development of the state-of-the art technologies, non- availability of trained and skilled manpower in respect of ab-initio development projects and non-availability of infrastructure/ test facilities in the country.

As far as construction of submarines is concerned, Antony said, “There is delay, which has been attributed to delay in procurement of construction materials.”

The project is being closely monitored by the Ministry of Defence and Indian Navy to complete it without any further delay, he said, adding, “Detailed information cannot be divulged in the interest of national security.”

 

[Jayanta]

Dear Defense Minister...it is time somebody is held accountable....and those accountable should get a "GAAND MEIN DANDA"!! Kick them out and pump in some fresh blood....your command should be clear....PERFORM OR PERISH.

 

[Sergi]

Oh common we all know how much it delayed and why ???

Just tell us what is being done to avoid that ???

 

[sancho]

Antony said reasons for delay include ab-initio development of the state-of-the art technologies, non- availability of trained and skilled manpower in respect of ab-initio development projects and non-availability of infrastructure/ test facilities in the country.

Overestimating their capabilities, creating major failures in project management, following their own interests not of the forces..., it's time to take some action!

 

[karan21]

DRDO is made up of 52 labs all over the nation. Whatever we say all these labs have tremendous capabilities in their respective fields. They have together build ICBMs nuclear subs, almost all types of avionics. AEW&C, space rockets etc etc. The only problem they suffer from is that bureaucracy and laggard leadership.

The only solution to this DRDO mess is to dissolve DRDO into private instutions and make each DRDO lab a company that can take its responsibilites and expand and produce products. Private sector companies should also be allowed to participate and take a stake in DRDO. All these labs can still collaborate and work on projects but the only thing is that they wont be working under DRDO.

 

[Paan Singh]

nthng new ..we knw abt dodo

 

[sancho]

The only solution to this DRDO mess is to dissolve DRDO into private instutions

To let them develop even more things the forces don't need? Privat companies are developing things they can sell, not what the forces needs, whenever exports gets a higher priority, the forces will suffer and DRDO is already not on the ground anymore.

What they really need is to focus on certain things, especially fields where they are successful like avionics, EW and improve there focus on baseline needs of the forces, like indigenous weapons.
Take them out of the fighter, helicopter, or transport aircraft fields and let these fields be managed by HAL, NAL supported by ADA and DRDO, because that's what they should do! Supporting indigenous development, or increasing the indigenous content in foreign weapon systems, not promising things that let them look highly capable, while they fail to deliver.

This could be a better alternative:

Indian forces as the main operators sets up what they need and if MoD approves it, the requirement will be be provided to HAL or NAL, as the main contractors in our aero field. They will take the lead and project management of any indigenously developed aircraft contracted to one of the, whit ADA supporting them for design, DRDO for avionics, radar or engine, while their main field will remain research, which includes own tech demonstrator programs (Kaveri engine, own radar, weapons or design developments).
The privat company supports in the production fields, or can be JV and co-development partners.
Foreign industry provideds licence production offers via ToT, preferably JVs and co-developments

They all have their own fields, but working jointly on the needs of our forces and not don't try to compete eachother. Only because HAL has a 5th fighter program for IAF as a partner of Sukhoi, doesn't mean that ADA and DRDO needs to start another one. Their main focus instead must be, to provide anything they can to support HAL!

When NAL has gained know how in developing prop-engined aircrafts, now they have to be improved to provide India with a 2nd major contractor, to take away parts of HALs workshare. Production of Pilatus trainers, development of MTA, licence production of Avro replacement for example, all jointly with a major privat company, would benefit India in the aero fiel very much and them for their own developments like Saras, or RTA.

The same can be done in other fields as well:

 

[Abingdonboy]

@sancho there is a balance to be had surely? Yes there needs to be a significant emphasis on what the forces' want/need but at the same time there needs to be independent R&D wherein the DRDO is exploring new tech and pushing boundaries and offering tech the military doesn't even know it wants/needs until it sees it. You can't expect the military to have an understanding on all the future tech and its applications so that it can formulate a request for the DRDO to work on.

 

[Jayanta]

DRDO is made up of 52 labs all over the nation. Whatever we say all these labs have tremendous capabilities in their respective fields. They have together build ICBMs nuclear subs, almost all types of avionics. AEW&C, space rockets etc etc. The only problem they suffer from is that bureaucracy and laggard leadership.

The only solution to this DRDO mess is to dissolve DRDO into private instutions and make each DRDO lab a company that can take its responsibilites and expand and produce products. Private sector companies should also be allowed to participate and take a stake in DRDO. All these labs can still collaborate and work on projects but the only thing is that they wont be working under DRDO.

Bhai sahab those capabilities are clear from their work....mere degrees are of no use if there is no productivity.

 

[karan21]

Bhai sahab those capabilities are clear from their work....mere degrees are of no use if there is no productivity.

Thats exactly what I said. DRDO labs dont get a chance to do Independent R&D and expand. They are not allowed to compete with other firms around the world for contracts. This whole system is to blame. If we give all of them a chance to expand with private sector involvement then you could see massive improvement in Indians defecne industry.

 

[sancho]

@sancho there is a balance to be had surely? Yes there needs to be a significant emphasis on what the forces' want/need but at the same time there needs to be independent R&D wherein the DRDO is exploring new tech and pushing boundaries and offering tech the military doesn't even know it wants/needs until it sees it. You can't expect the military to have an understanding on all the future tech and its applications so that it can formulate a request for the DRDO to work on.

But the one doesn't preclude!

IAF already gets NG fighter techs, that's why they don't need the same from Indian sources again, with a higher risk of delays. All the things that ADA/DRDO wants to include in the AMCA (materials, comunication systems, avionics...) can be integrated into FGFA, so they would benefit from developing something advanced while supporting HAL with FGFA too and providing IAF with the best India can offer too. But that is not what they want, they want integrate these techs on an indigenous fighter and that's why they are insisting on an own NG fighter.
Same goes for DRDO AWACS, where (as I recently showed) it would be more beneficiary for IAF, but also for DRDO itself, when they fully induct the current AWACS first and think about how to improve this, instead of directly thinking about the next development, that is not the requrement for our forces.

And don't forget the way of tech demo programs!

- Saab has developed the Gripen NG tech demonstrator
- Eurofighter consortium developed the CESAR AESA radar TD
- Snecma developed the M88ECO TD
- Dassault and other European companies developed the nEUROn UCAV
- Sukhoi developed the Su 47
...
...
...

All these developments were done with limited funding and mainly to improve the technical capabilities of the industry. They were not fully government funded and most of them won't even go into serial production, so when the whole world can improve their capabilities without wasting a lot of time and money, why do we have to do it?
N-LCA would have been a perfect Tech Demo program, improving the industries capabilities in navalising fighters and could even been supported by IN, WITHOUT developing a fully fledged fighter version for huge ammount of money, but with medicor performance.
Kaveri engine could have been developed in a similar way, completely seperate from LCA and if it had turned out to be offer performance and reliability, could have been used in operational fighters too, but there was never a need to directly link both with eachother, since there you don't need an order of 200 engines to gain know how in the engine development field.

My example also is aimed on having less companies that fight eachother to be have the lead in indigenous developments. There is no need for a design / R&D agency like ADA or DRDO to take the lead in such programs, when you have main contractors to do it. They can develop and lead development where HAL and NAL don't have expertise, like the UAV field, but not sticking their nose into everything that brings them in the media.

Having a clear way, splitting the workshare and taking advantage of the expertise of all the partners would get us much further then we are so far!

Thats exactly what I said. DRDO labs dont get a chance to do Independent R&D and expand. They are not allowed to compete with other firms around the world for contracts. This whole system is to blame. If we give all of them a chance to expand with private sector involvement then you could see massive improvement in Indians defecne industry.

Please name a field where DRDO could compete on world level with other defence manufacturers.

 

[karan21]

To let them develop even more things the forces don't need? Privat companies are developing things they can sell, not what the forces needs, whenever exports gets a higher priority, the forces will suffer and DRDO is already not on the ground anymore.

What they really need is to focus on certain things, especially fields where they are successful like avionics, EW and improve there focus on baseline needs of the forces, like indigenous weapons.
Take them out of the fighter, helicopter, or transport aircraft fields and let these fields be managed by HAL, NAL supported by ADA and DRDO, because that's what they should do! Supporting indigenous development, or increasing the indigenous content in foreign weapon systems, not promising things that let them look highly capable, while they fail to deliver.

This could be a better alternative:

Indian forces as the main operators sets up what they need and if MoD approves it, the requirement will be be provided to HAL or NAL, as the main contractors in our aero field. They will take the lead and project management of any indigenously developed aircraft contracted to one of the, whit ADA supporting them for design, DRDO for avionics, radar or engine, while their main field will remain research, which includes own tech demonstrator programs (Kaveri engine, own radar, weapons or design developments).
The privat company supports in the production fields, or can be JV and co-development partners.
Foreign industry provideds licence production offers via ToT, preferably JVs and co-developments

They all have their own fields, but working jointly on the needs of our forces and not don't try to compete eachother. Only because HAL has a 5th fighter program for IAF as a partner of Sukhoi, doesn't mean that ADA and DRDO needs to start another one. Their main focus instead must be, to provide anything they can to support HAL!

When NAL has gained know how in developing prop-engined aircrafts, now they have to be improved to provide India with a 2nd major contractor, to take away parts of HALs workshare. Production of Pilatus trainers, development of MTA, licence production of Avro replacement for example, all jointly with a major privat company, would benefit India in the aero fiel very much and them for their own developments like Saras, or RTA.

The same can be done in other fields as well:

I think DRDO has proved its capability beyond doubt in developing missiles, avionics, submarine componenets and also absorbing the TOTs and manufacturing capabilities. The problem is that it now a big elephant which is not even able to met the needs of the country forget being an exporter of defence products. We should break this elephant down and shift the manufacturing to the private sector. DRDO labs should have the necessary permssions to do independent R&D and compete withother firms around the world. For example CABS could become the rayethon of tomorrow, but if it remains under DRDO it will be what it it forever.

Thats just my view. I am sure GOI wont agree with me.

Please name a field where DRDO could compete on world level with other defence manufacturers.

Exactly they cant because they always worked under the govt and Indian forces. If TATA, mahindra and L&t can develop products and bid for projects all over the world, then so can DRDO if it is allowed to do so by the breaucrats.

 

[sancho]

I think DRDO has proved its capability beyond doubt

Not really, their engine developments were a failure, the radar developments are still not operational in IAF to measure their performance, their missile developments are not on par with foreign counterparts, be it wrt range, weight, or precision. Infact when you look at the fact that we are a nation that can send rocktes to space, we should be more capable in missile / weapon developments so far too.
Their armored vehicles face even more problems, outdated design and capabilities, overweight and performance issues, not meeting IAs needs and at all these projects we see major delays, cost-overruns, or major project management mistakes.

DRDO has achieved certain things in certain fields and that's why I said they should focus on them, or on the fields where we can't get alternatives, but they have no neet to expand them and their noses to areas where India can't benefit from. They don't have to compete on the world market, because their prime goal must be to deliver what that INDIAN forces needs and that's what they have forgotten now.

 

[Dash]

Not really, their engine developments were a failure, the radar developments are still not operational in IAF to measure their performance, their missile developments are not on par with foreign counterparts, be it wrt range, weight, or precision. Infact when you look at the fact that we are a nation that can send rocktes to space, we should be more capable in missile / weapon developments so far too.
Their armored vehicles face even more problems, outdated design and capabilities, overweight and performance issues, not meeting IAs needs and at all these projects we see major delays, cost-overruns, or major project management mistakes.

DRDO has achieved certain things in certain fields and that's why I said they should focus on them, or on the fields where we can't get alternatives, but they have no neet to expand them and their noses to areas where India can't benefit from. They don't have to compete on the world market, because their prime goal must be to deliver what that INDIAN forces needs and that's what they have forgotten now.

There is a point of blame..but Sancho, dont you think DRDO needs a patron too?, IA, IAF and IN have been playing spolit sport in all projects. They are also equally responsible for DRDOs failures.

 

[sancho]

There is a point of blame..but Sancho, dont you think DRDO needs a patron too?, IA, IAF and IN have been playing spolit sport in all projects. They are also equally responsible for DRDOs failures.

DRDO has, the forces, HAL, NAL, naval industry..., the point is just, that they are doing too much now, in fields where they shouldn't work because we already have companies there and since they are mainly meant for R&D, they should assist these companies rather than competing with them. Even in my example nobody would restrict DRDO from developing weapons for IAF fighters, IA artillery and tanks, or for IN subs and vessels. Not to forget that they have main fields, where they have no competitior anyway, balistic missiles, AWACS radar systems, UAVs, core indigenous projects that should be dealt with, while DRDO at the moment is distracting itself by expanding too much and offering things they once can't deliver and secondly don't need to be. That is why they are ineffective and why they spoil Indias defence capability today!

Wrt the forces part, they have their shares too, but they are mainly taken to blame somebody, whenever DRDO has messed it up again.

LCA project management failures - ADA is responsible for the project - IAF is blamed
Kaveri development failures - DRDO is responsible for the project - IAF is blamed
Indigenous MMR - HAL/DRDO are responsible for the project - IAF is blamed
Overweight and drag issues of various Indian aircraft design - ADA/HAL/NAL are responsible for the projects - IAF is blamed

All these are problems of the agencies and industries behind these projects, not of the final operator. If we want to blame IAF, we must do it for the slow order policy of LCA MK1, since at least a squadron for training of pilots and ground crews could have been inducted so far, even if the fighter is restricted for certain parts of the flight envelope so far. We see it at Aero India for years, it even has done weapon trials, so setting up a training squadron shouldn't be a problem either.
However, that has still nothing to do with the development problems!

We have to blame DRDO or other companies for what they have done wrong and the forces for their wrong doings (LCA induction, combat helicopters, maritime attack fighters under IAF control, seperate evaluations and orders of similar techs and systems of different forces...), but not simply blame the forces or politicans for everything and never hold our scientist accountable for anything!