M1 trials in Pakistan

[untitled]

The gun in earlier model Abrams was licence built British gun. what targeting system was it using?

 

[LeGenD]

The gun you are seeing is a 90 or 100 calib..!

The footage isn't bogus not are the claims ..

M1A1 Abrams Tank is equipped with M256 120mm Smoothbore Gun

You understand what are the minimum characteristics of an M1A1 model?

The footage [in question] demonstrates an M1A1 Abrams Tank performing impressive maneuvers in the desert, nothing else. This footage then switches to a scene of an [unidentified] gun firing towards some targets (without showing the entire vehicle). An M1A1 Abrams Tank is not equipped with this type of gun, period.

I have also posted evidence of an M1A1 Abrams Tank hitting a target with great accuracy in an exercise [Check imgur link in the starting post].

Instead of arguing, kindly pay attention to the provided evidence.

I know ab officer who was present there when Abrams were tested - which was the reason gen Zia & several other high ranking officers (including Americans) were present in Bahawalpur for..

Ah yes, I was expecting this kind of response.

Now kindly provide me a real footage of the testing, I believe that you can arrange it for me through your source. Lets settle this matter.

 

[C130]

Abrams is good but is it $8 million dollars good?? I don't think so

I'd rather have 2.5/3 T-72B3 for every 1 Abram/Challenger2/Leopard 2 that I could buy

it all comes down to crew training IMO as proof of Houthis knocking out Saudi M-60s and M1s

why the M1 failed in Pakistan,I would speculate it was due to the engine not being modified to handle the sand environment it was tested in. this problem was fixed before/during Desert Storm

gas turbines have their pros/cons, maybe it was wise of the Soviets to drop the gas turbine.

 

[LeGenD]

The gun in earlier model Abrams was licence built British gun. what targeting system was it using?

Yes, this model is known as M1 Abrams. However, it have been phased out.

M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams models are in service at present.

Abrams is good but is it $8 million dollars good?? I don't think so

I'd rather have 2.5/3 T-72B3 for every 1 Abram/Challenger2/Leopard 2 that I could buy

it all comes down to crew training IMO as proof of Houthis knocking out Saudi M-60s and M1s

why the M1 failed in Pakistan,I would speculate it was due to the engine not being modified to handle the sand environment it was tested in. this problem was fixed before/during Desert Storm

gas turbines have their pros/cons, maybe it was wise of the Soviets to drop the gas turbine.

Its all hearsay! We do not have proper video evidence of the actual [target practice session] of an M1A1 Abrams Tank in Pakistan.

M1A1 Abrams Tank have an advanced TAS system, even an incompetent crew will not miss many targets with it.

The BBC documentary contains a footage of an M1A1 Abrams Tank performing impressive maneuvers in a desert, supposedly in Pakistan. Afterwards, an [unidentified] gun is shown firing towards some targets and it misses them (the vehicle is not shown). This gun is not used on an M1A1 Abrams Tank. I believe that the British documentary-makers attempted to undermine the reputation of American Tanks with this nonsense.

 

[LeGenD]

Carried from here: Wajahat S Khan's Mahaz program from the frontlines of Shawal Valley. | Page 3

what do mean ? Can you please explain in detail ?, thx

Mr. Wajahat conducted an interview of a Pakistan army major in the Episode 3 of this documentary series [regarding Tanks] and some of his responses were as follows:-

1. Quality of the weapon system is not important; it is the man behind the rifle who makes difference.

2. M1A1 Tank is not comparable to even the [1960s era] Chinese Type 59 Tank in the inventory of Pakistan army, the [former] American Tank performed poorly during its trials in Pakistan.

My thoughts:

1. Quality of the weapon system [and] the crew is important. For example, you cannot expect to shoot down an SU-35 with an F-86 Sabre even with an experienced pilot.

2. Pakistani accounts of poor performance of the legendary M1A1 Abrams Tank during its trials in Pakistan lack any credibility [This thread is intended to ascertain the facts about this event]. I assume that he heard this story from someone else [probably in the military] and decided to tell it in a documentary.

----

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." (Joseph Goebbels)

If you are giving an interview, make sure that you have done your homework beforehand.

I believe that Pakistan army should adopt a Think Tank based model to evaluate the ground realities of modern warfare and developments in this regard. In this manner, Pakistan army can produce highly (informed) soldiers and make better decisions about its equipment related acquisitions. Disinformation can have disastrous consequences for troops in a battle.

 

[Beast]

US brag about their seperate weapon comapartment of M1A1 tank well protects the crew in case of penetration than T-72. A video says a thousand words.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

It is BOGUS.

That footage is from a BBC documentary about assassination of COAS Zia-ul-Huq. The documentary shows an unidentified gun firing towards targets and missing them. The documentary-makers shamefully claimed that this is the gun of an M1A1 Abrams Tank. IT IS NOT.

Check the photos in my opening post.

its not just footage of some ''BBC'' documentary, a source who itself has questionable credibility.
If u watch Wajahat S Khan's series we r soldiers there a serving colonel had talked abt T-59s and M1 A1's firing report. He said the fire report of T59, a very basic tank was better then that of M1A1 under trial in Pakistan. The members here r basically quoting that.

BTW yes there is a video of the trials as Pakistan takes the videos of all the weapons tested here to later on further assess their performances. And there is also a written firing report of M1 test too written by none other then those people who were testing it that time.

And really, that report is not too encouraging, and it wasnt only abt the firing too, it had several other issues too, cause of that was it too heavy weighted for its engine to pull over sand dunes etc

Why hasnt PA showed the video publicly, i dont know. But it is there.

 

[Arsalan]

All i can say is we were better of with out the Abrams. There was a chance that we wont have gotten into domestic product/development of tank once we were attached with the US. This may have deprived us of making that excellent machine we call Al Khalid 1/ Our AK-1 is as good as any thing in that category and suites our requirement perfectly. In manufactured in-house so less costs, more room for upgrades and alteration, no sanctions at all.

The project created hundreds of job and also developed a good base for future projects so i am extremely happy we went down this road and not the Abram one.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

M1A1 Abrams Tank is equipped with M256 120mm Smoothbore Gun

You understand what are the minimum characteristics of an M1A1 model?

The footage [in question] demonstrates an M1A1 Abrams Tank performing impressive maneuvers in the desert, nothing else. This footage then switches to a scene of an [unidentified] gun firing towards some targets (without showing the entire vehicle). An M1A1 Abrams Tank is not equipped with this type of gun, period.

I have also posted evidence of an M1A1 Abrams Tank hitting a target with great accuracy in an exercise [Check imgur link in the starting post].

Instead of arguing, kindly pay attention to the provided evidence.


Ah yes, I was expecting this kind of response.

Now kindly provide me a real footage of the testing, I believe that you can arrange it for me through your source. Lets settle this matter.

Have you ever heard of M68 canon used on the older M1A1 ?? Which is being shown in the video .. In terrain that looks exactly like Cholistan desert ???

Have you heard or read official accounts of PA testing M1A1 ?? Have you readers ... Why Gen Zia,US ambassadors,etc etc visited Bahawalpur before the crash?

Have you read tank nuts like zaloga etc? Have you ever read books like Crossed Swords etc? Do you even know that all tank experts agree that the tank was tested by PA?

Can't you see the damn M1A1 with its British L7 fail at hitting targets? Do you think it didn't exist! I'm sure a few hundreds of these are still sitting in US military depots !

its not just footage of some ''BBC'' documentary, a source who itself has questionable credibility.
If u watch Wajahat S Khan's series we r soldiers there a serving colonel had talked abt T-59s and M1 A1's firing report. He said the fire report of T59, a very basic tank was better then that of M1A1 under trial in Pakistan. The members here r basically quoting that.

BTW yes there a video of the trials as Pakistan takes the videos of all the weapons tested here to later on further assess their performances. And there is also a written firing report of M1 test too written by none other then those people who were testing it that time.

And really, that report is not too encouraging, and it wasnt only abt the firing too, it had several other issues too, cause of that was it too heavy weighted for its engine to pull over sand dunes etc

Why hasnt PA showed the video publicly, i dont know. But it is there.

Other than that a heavy tank is useless in our case..

A; sand -- bigger issue was---
B; Transportation infrastructure cant support it either..

In 1987, an M1A1 Abrams Tank was tested in Pakistan and its performance was terrible according to Pakistani accounts. A (Pakistani) major [in a documentary] claimed that even the Chinese Type 59 tank is better then the M1A1 Abrams Tank.

My point of contention is that if M1A1 Abrams Tank was so bad, how come it performed marvelously in diverse environments ranging from deserts to urban settings during the Persian Gulf War 1991 and Operation Iraqi Freedom? If Pakistani accounts are to be taken seriously, then M1A1 Abrams Tank should have been a failure.

NOTE: M1A1 Abrams Tank have been used in the deserts of Jordan and Afghanistan as well. Therefore, environment was never an issue.

A [BBC] documentary about the (deceased) Pakistan army chief Zia-ul-Huq contains footage of an [unidentified] gun firing a (dummy) round towards a target but misses it by considerable margin. This gun is claimed to be that of the M1A1 Abrams Tank.

However, this type of gun is (not) used in an M1A1 Abrams Tank (not even in the export model of this Tank). Therefore, I find this documentary misleading. And if Pakistani accounts are based on this footage, then they are equally misplaced and I find it strange that nobody attempted to critically evaluate this matter at official capacity.

Here is a photo of an M1A1 Abrams Tank:

The actual gun of an M1A1 Abrams Tank is [vastly] different from the gun shown in BBC documentary.

Now, here is PROOF of high accuracy of an M1A1 Abrams Tank: Imgur (A dummy round was fired towards the left-most target panel and hit the target. It shall be kept in mind that dummy rounds do not destroy targets.)

TAS (Target Acquisition System) of M1A1 Abrams Tank:

The Gunner's Primary Sight-Line of Sight (GPS-LOS), was developed by the Electro-Optical Systems Division of Hughes Aircraft Company. The night vision Thermal Imaging System (TIS), also from Hughes, creates an image based on the differences of heat radiated by objects in the field of view. The thermal image is displayed in the eyepiece of the Gunner's sight together with the range measurement to within 10 meters of accuracy, from a Hughes laser range finder, which is integrated into all of the fire control systems. The Abrams also has an onboard digital fire control computer. Range data from the laser rangefinder is transferred directly to the fire control computer, which automatically calculates the fire control solution. The data includes 1) the lead angle measurement, 2) the bend of the gun measured by the muzzle reference system of the main armament, 3) wind velocity measurement from a wind sensor on the roof of the turret and 4) the data from a pendulum static cant sensor located at the center of the turret roof. The Gunner or Commander manually inputs the data on the ammunition type and temperature, and the barometric pressure and the weapon is prepared for engagement.

Source: M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank

This disclosure is from a book of Steven J. Zaloga:

Pakistan tested the M1 tank, but disagreements with the US over its nuclear programme have prevented acquisition of the Abrams tank.

This disclosure is from a book of Pranay Gupte:

In Bahawalpur, Zia and his brass had watched a demonstration of the M1-Abrams, one of the most sophisticated tanks in the world. The manufacturer of the tank, General Dynamics Inc., was so keen to make a sale that the American company had trimmed the overall price of a package deal by $500,000 to $3 million per tank. Indeed Zia seemed so impressed by the tank's awesome capabilities that the General Dynamics executives at the scene were certain that a deal will be clinched.

Zia left the demonstration in his usual cheerful mood, pausing to chat with several local security personnel and others before he boarded the C-130. The plane took off with a roar, but in less than four minutes, while it was at an altitude of 4000 feet and still climbing, the aircraft lost radio contact with the control tower.

In the nutshell, we have conflicting accounts from different sources about this matter but I have provided (neutral) evidence that is enough to dismiss Pakistani accounts (and) the credibility of the relevant footage in the referred BBC documentary.

Therefore, all of the above leads to following questions:-

1. The M1A1 model tested in Pakistan was a prototype?
2. Pakistani accounts are FALSE?
3. Any technical information about this testing event?

Any meaningful input from the professionals is welcome but I will give preference to concrete information of the events, (not) fairy-tales like my uncle was an eye-witness and the tank was shit and blah blah.

Gulf or Iraq war are the shittiest examples you can give to prove your point ...

Trained crew in Abrams with untrained shitty Iraqi troops (most surrendered in a giffy) in Asad e Babil aka Iraqi made monkey model T-72s & older T55s!

Yes, this model is known as M1 Abrams. However, it have been phased out.

M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams models are in service at present.


Its all hearsay! We do not have proper video evidence of the actual [target practice session] of an M1A1 Abrams Tank in Pakistan.

M1A1 Abrams Tank have an advanced TAS system, even an incompetent crew will not miss many targets with it.

The BBC documentary contains a footage of an M1A1 Abrams Tank performing impressive maneuvers in a desert, supposedly in Pakistan. Afterwards, an [unidentified] gun is shown firing towards some targets and it misses them (the vehicle is not shown). This gun is not used on an M1A1 Abrams Tank. I believe that the British documentary-makers attempted to undermine the reputation of American Tanks with this nonsense.

Crock of shit.

 

[airmarshal]

Even if the original poster doubts the wisdom behind not buying M1, in the hindsight it was a right decision.

We were under sanctions for a generation. This was American reward for partnership in Afghanistan.

So in that perspective, not buying M1 tanks was a correct decision.

 

[TheNoob]

Abrams is good but is it $8 million dollars good?? I don't think so

I'd rather have 2.5/3 T-72B3 for every 1 Abram/Challenger2/Leopard 2 that I could buy

it all comes down to crew training IMO as proof of Houthis knocking out Saudi M-60s and M1s

why the M1 failed in Pakistan,I would speculate it was due to the engine not being modified to handle the sand environment it was tested in. this problem was fixed before/during Desert Storm

gas turbines have their pros/cons, maybe it was wise of the Soviets to drop the gas turbine.

Yes, Your right.
The tank was too heavy for our taste plus the engine did not perform well in the cholistan desert.
It had overheating and malfunctions, or so they said.

 

[LeGenD]

If u watch Wajahat S Khan's series we r soldiers there a serving colonel had talked abt T-59s and M1 A1's firing report. He said the fire report of T59, a very basic tank was better then that of M1A1 under trial in Pakistan. The members here r basically quoting that.

And you believe in this nonsense?

All nations should buy the Chinese Type 59 MBT then since it is cheap and superior then the legendary M1A1 Abrams MBT.

Why bother spending millions of dollars on developing an MBT that is a relatively inferior design?

BTW yes there a video of the trials as Pakistan takes the videos of all the weapons tested here to later on further assess their performances. And there is also a written firing report of M1 test too written by none other then those people who were testing it that time.

And really, that report is not too encouraging, and it wasnt only abt the firing too, it had several other issues too, cause of that was it too heavy weighted for its engine to pull over sand dunes etc

Why hasnt PA showed the video publicly, i dont know. But it is there.

So where is this video?

You understand the importance of EVIDENCE, right?

 

[Saifullah]

And you believe in this nonsense?

All nations should buy the Chinese Type 59 MBT then since it is cheap and superior then the legendary M1A1 Abrams MBT.

Why bother spending millions of dollars on developing an MBT that is a relatively inferior design?


So where is this video?

You understand the importance of EVIDENCE, right?

Have you read the evolution process of M1A1 ? Engine of M1A1 is BAD (Logistically speaking) and nightmare for maintenance crew. The M1A1 you see today is too much changed from when it was tested in Pakistan. 105mm Gun was the main at the time and tank didn't gave the good enough performance.

 

[Echo_419]

US brag about their seperate weapon comapartment of M1A1 tank well protects the crew in case of penetration than T-72. A video says a thousand words.

A lot depends on the training too

 

[Umair Nawaz]

And you believe in this nonsense?

All nations should buy the Chinese Type 59 MBT then since it is cheap and superior then the legendary M1A1 Abrams MBT.

Why bother spending millions of dollars on developing an MBT that is a relatively inferior design?


So where is this video?

You understand the importance of EVIDENCE, right?

dude how old are u?

BTW the israelis also never brought Abrahams, why?