M.A Jinnah on weeky time magazine cover April 22 1946

[M. Sarmad]

Go see the map.



Partition plan only said Bengal and Punjab to be divided but Pakistan was given extra preference in Assam and then shed crocodile tears for not getting Hindu majority areas.



Now you don't consider them as Muslims, so why is this grumbling all about.



A nation founded on Two nation theory tried grab Hindu majority Junagadh and Hyderabad both being non-contiguous with Pakistan and even supplied weapons to Razakars to massacre Hindus in Hyderabad then blaming Indians as playing dirty. It sounds pot calling the kettle black.

Chittagong Hill Tracts
Chittagong Hill Tracts had a majority non-Muslim population of 98% (most of them Buddhists). On 17 August, the publication of the Radcliffe Award put Chittagong Hill Tracts to Pakistan. The rationale of giving the Chittagong Hill Tracts to Pakistan was that they were inaccessible to India and to provide some buffer area to Chittagong (now in Bangladesh), a major city and port

http://www.cdsrd.org/userfiles/3_ Col_ Nirmal Siwach.pdf @scorpionx

Conclusion
The Partition was a highly controversial arrangement, and remains a cause of much tension on the subcontinent even today. The British Viceroy, Lord Mountbatten of Burma has not only been accused of rushing the process through, but also is alleged to have influenced the Radcliffe Line. However, the commission took so long to decide on a final boundary that the two nations were granted their independence even before there was a defined boundary between them. Some critics allege that British haste led to the cruelties of the Partition. Because independence was declared prior to the actual Partition, it was up to the
new governments of India and Pakistan to keep public order. It was a task at which both states failed. There was a complete breakdown of law and order; many died in riots, massacre, or just from the hardships of their flight to safety. What ensued was one of the largest population movements in recorded history

Over ten million people both Hindus and Muslims were trekking from east to west, in the opposite directions. Many of them never made it to their destinations. The partition was promulgated in the Indian Independence Act 1947 and resulted
in the dissolution of the British Indian Empire. The violent nature of the partition created an atmosphere of mutual hostility and suspicion between India and Pakistan that plagues their relationship till this day. Let us be optimistic over the future relations between the two countries as the subcontinent has always lived with difference but it has also known how to negotiate these differences and transcend them

 

[scorpionx]

states department?

States Department - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[INDIC]

you know anything about Punch uprising?

So what after that, the Pashtuns attacks Kashmir valley, looted and killed people irrespective of religion and abducts women to rape. In St. Thomas Convent School of Baramulla European nuns were raped and killed by Pashtuns militias. They didn't more to Srinagar from Baramulla because they have to collect truckload of booty. You think Pakistan didn't have their own blunder in case of Kashmir.

Chittagong Hill Tracts
Chittagong Hill Tracts had a majority non-Muslim population of 98% (most of them Buddhists). On 17 August, the publication of the Radcliffe Award put Chittagong Hill Tracts to Pakistan. The rationale of giving the Chittagong Hill Tracts to Pakistan was that they were inaccessible to India and to provide some buffer area to Chittagong (now in Bangladesh), a major city and port

http://www.cdsrd.org/userfiles/3_ Col_ Nirmal Siwach.pdf @scorpionx

Conclusion
The Partition was a highly controversial arrangement, and remains a cause of much tension on the subcontinent even today. The British Viceroy, Lord Mountbatten of Burma has not only been accused of rushing the process through, but also is alleged to have influenced the Radcliffe Line. However, the commission took so long to decide on a final boundary that the two nations were granted their independence even before there was a defined boundary between them. Some critics allege that British haste led to the cruelties of the Partition. Because independence was declared prior to the actual Partition, it was up to the
new governments of India and Pakistan to keep public order. It was a task at which both states failed. There was a complete breakdown of law and order; many died in riots, massacre, or just from the hardships of their flight to safety. What ensued was one of the largest population movements in recorded history

Over ten million people both Hindus and Muslims were trekking from east to west, in the opposite directions. Many of them never made it to their destinations. The partition was promulgated in the Indian Independence Act 1947 and resulted
in the dissolution of the British Indian Empire. The violent nature of the partition created an atmosphere of mutual hostility and suspicion between India and Pakistan that plagues their relationship till this day. Let us be optimistic over the future relations between the two countries as the subcontinent has always lived with difference but it has also known how to negotiate these differences and transcend them

There was no basis of given Chittagong Hill Track to Pakistan.

 

[FaujHistorian]

So what after that, the Pashtuns attacks Kashmir valley, looted and killed people irrespective of religion and abducts women to rape. In St. Thomas Convent School of Baramulla European nuns were raped and killed by Pashtuns militias. You think Pakistan didn't have their own blunder in case of Kashmir.
.

I respectfully asked

--- Do you know about Punch uprising?

States Department - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I could do the wiki myself

What puzzled me was your statement " I respect Mr.Jinnah from my heart but I do not understand his stand on not sending any capable MLeaguer to the states department in '47. If he had done so, the political geography of this region would have been much different."

Please add some info to this

Did Congress have better rep sent to this department

What do you think they could have achieved?

 

[scorpionx]

@Azlan Haider

LMB influenced Radcliffe to alter the boundaries at the last minute. This fact is well proved and well documented. But what I am saying is EMB might not have been involved in these mess. You know the "Caesar's wife" was given clean chit, isn't?

Please add some info to this

Did Congress have better rep sent to this department

What do you think they could have achieved?

For the first time in it's history, the Congress perhaps did the best thing it could have done by sending the best man in the office, Sardar Patel. In my honest opinion no one could have stopped the annexation of Kashmir to Pakistan that time if Jinnah had sent a person of his own caliber to represent Pakistan, taking the British and Indian attitude in terms of Kashmir.

 

[M. Sarmad]

.Pathankot was Hindu/Sikh majority Tehsil in Gurdaspur, before partition plan it was decided whole of Gurdaspur won't be given to either India or Pakistan. So, after partition Shakargarh was given to Pakistan and rest of Gurdaspur to India.

Who decided it and what was the purpose behind ???

Nehru was from Kashmir valley, a Kashmiri Pandit, not from Jammu as you claiming

I also meant the same . He had emotional attachment with J&K

There was no basis of given Chittagong Hill Track to Pakistan

There were reasons for it , but there was no honest reason behind giving Gurdaspur to India

 

[FaujHistorian]

.....The Partition was a highly controversial arrangement, and remains a cause of much tension on the subcontinent even today. The British Viceroy, Lord Mountbatten of Burma has not only been accused of rushing the process through, but also is alleged to have influenced the Radcliffe Line. However, the commission took so long to decide on a final boundary that the two nations were granted their independence even before there was a defined boundary between them. Some critics allege that British haste led to the cruelties of the Partition. Because independence was declared prior to the actual Partition, it was up to the
new governments of India and Pakistan to keep public order. It was a task at which both states failed. There was a complete breakdown of law and order; many died in riots, massacre, or just from the hardships of their flight to safety. What ensued was one of the largest population movements in recorded history

Oh yaar. I admire your detailed knowledge of history that is atypical of most Hindu and Muslim posters.

--- This is the reason I am "forced" to give you positive ratings and not just thumb up

But few key points are missing in your interpretation of history. And that's OK we all do,.


Partition in reality was not too unexpected. and it was going to lead to controversy no matter what

Because resurgent Hindu nationalism was looking at the whole continent as their mai baap ki jaagir INCLUDING Muslim majority provinces.

So even an inch sq being given to non-Hindu nationalist was going to be controversial.


These Hindu nationalists were planning such massacres and looting since 1920s.

And you know the original planned birth of modern day India and Pakistan was to be in 1948?


you know that?

Right?


Then it was moved to 1947 for some specific reasons.,

you know them too.

Right?

 

[INDIC]

For the first time in it's history, the Congress perhaps did the best thing it could have done by sending the best man in the office, Sardar Patel. In my honest opinion no one could have stopped the annexation of Kashmir to Pakistan that time if Jinnah had sent a person of his own caliber to represent Pakistan, taking the British and Indian attitude in terms of Kashmir.[/USER]

You are forgetting pal that Jinnah had plans to get many Hindu majority princely states in Pakistan. Not just Hyderabad or Junagadh but many more like 3 princely states in Rajputana and some in Gujarat. You can read this from Pakistani's own mouth with their usual grumbling of not getting them.

Quaid-iAzam, Muslim League and the Accession of Princely States

 

[scorpionx]

@INDIC

Nobody had plans except Sardar Patel. He knew exactly what to do and when to do. He knew this territory more than anybody else in the states department. What surprised me was Mr.Jinnah's attitude towards the partition of princely states. Perhaps his health was not permitting or he severely lacked a decent reserve bench. ( I am going through your link,coming back soon.)

"The Muslim League leadership from the very beginning stood for faithful adherence to the doctrine of non-interference in the affairs of the states which in turn overlook the insidious political developments taking place in states of vital interest to Pakistan like Jammu and Kashmir. Even among the 12 states located within the geographic limits of Pakistan, at least two rulers initially attempted to keep away from Pakistan. Mountbatten quoted in an aid-memoir that "a large state-Kalat-approached the Government of India for political relationship, but was refused; and unofficial overtures from Bahawalpur [for acceding to India] were similarly discouraged". 9 The Muslim League was not looking into the merits of each of these cases and their political hold over the prospective areas of Pakistan appeared to be loose.

The Muslim, League had admittedly no political ambition as far as Hyderabad was concerned except for maintaining centuries' old culture and religious bonds existing between the States' Muslims and Pakistan.

On the contrary the Congress had taken a lead in extending its political influence in the princely states. It actively helped to establish the All-India States Peoples' Conference in 1927. During 1928-46, the Congress leadership worked for establishment of representative institutions in the states and lent active support for their legitimate and peaceful struggle for responsible government."

From the link; this is precisely what I was trying to say so far.

 

[INDIC]

Who decided it and what was the purpose behind ???

I also meant the same . He had emotional attachment with J&K

There were reasons for it , but there was no honest reason behind giving Gurdaspur to India

Cyril Radcliffe was deciding and since Pathankot was 2/3 Hindu-Sikh majority, it can't be given to Pakistan. Pathankot tehil which connects Kashmir with rest of India was coming to India all possible case, so your complain that Kashmir wouldn't have merged with India if Gurdaspur holds no truth.

I respectfully asked
--- Do you know about Punch uprising?

I know about it since most of the Pakistanis talk about it but still I am looking for a neutral perspective from a western author.

 

[FaujHistorian]

@INDIC

Nobody had plans except Sardar Patel. He knew exactly what to do and when to do. He knew this territory more than anybody else in the states department. What surprised me was Mr.Jinnah's attitude towards the partition of princely states. Perhaps his health was not permitting or he severely lacked a decent reserve bench. ( I am going through your link,coming back soon.)

It is easy to give credit to Patel

because he was a rabid Hindu nationalist

He was going to use superior firepower of Indian military to capture all princely states (40% area of British India)

So get this think cleared up

and read a bit of what Patel said about Pakistan itself (and not just princely states).


Thank you

C...



I know about it[punch uprising] since most of the Pakistanis talk about it but still I am looking for a neutral perspective from a western author.

What do you KNOW?

 

[scorpionx]

because he was a rabid Hindu nationalist

He may be a rabid Hindu nationalist and anti-Pakistan. What I am saying is he was the best man doing best job for his own country. As a future home minister of India, his natural instinct would be to protect Indian interest and not Pakistan's,isn't? ML's inefficiency can not be covered up by Patel's rabid Hindu nationalism, sadly.

@INDIC

Alex Von Tunzelmann is an British author. You can read her book.

 

[INDIC]

What do you KNOW?

I have surprise with the casualties figure in many many Lakhs being mentioned in these articles since that entire population of Jammu and Kashmir princely states was around 40 Lakhs.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Cyril Radcliffe was deciding and since Pathankot was 2/3 Hindu-Sikh majority, it can't be given to Pakistan. Pathankot tehil which connects Kashmir with rest of India was coming to India all possible case, so your complain that Kashmir wouldn't have merged with India if Gurdaspur holds no truth

It is your lack of knowledge of history and geography !!!
In 1947 , The railway track and the only road (a dirt track) that connected Jammu to Eastern Punjab ran via Gurdaspur (Gurdaspur-Pathankot-Jammu). If Muslim majority Tehsils of Gurdaspur and Batala were awarded to Pakistan there would be no effective road link between India and Kashmir

 

[FaujHistorian]

He may be a rabid Hindu nationalist and anti-Pakistan. What I am saying is he was the best man doing best job for his own country. \.

He was best man because he could use Indian military machine to achieve his objectives of gobbling up as much area as possible.

It was the race to occupy

and he had the military to do so.

Nothing of his personal acumen

Just an example of sheer cruelty

I hope you see this side too,

I have surprise with the casualties figure in many many Lakhs being mentioned in these articles since that entire population of Jammu and Kashmir princely states was around 40 Lakhs.

My question was Punch uprising.

Who were the "uprisers"

and why did they rise up?

It is your lack of knowledge of history and geography !!!
In 1947 , The railway track and the only road (a dirt track) that connected Jammu to Eastern Punjab ran via Gurdaspur (Gurdaspur-Pathankot-Jammu). If Muslim majority Tehsils of Gurdaspur and Batala were awarded to Pakistan there would be no effective road link between India and Kashmir

Yaar I have read a lot about Gurdaspur thingy.

We Pakistanis tend to moan and groan about this one district without realizing the causes and long term repercussions of this district verses larger regional planning and policies.

Yes if Gurdaspur provided the only land route to Jammu from the newly born India.

But this was not the silver bullet to solve Kashmir issue.

Indian army back then and later would have been strong enough to carve the moutains and do something to establish some other more difficult route.

We Pakistanis tend to sit on our behinds without realizing the zeal and determination of Hindu nationalists.

--- In a reverse way, Hindu nationalist also fail to realize the tenacity of Pakistanis. Thus the constant $tupid wars.

Pakistan lost J&K much earlier perhaps as early as 1920 when the writing was on the wall about Plan B by two top parties in British India

1. Congress
2. and to lesser degree British gov (as they preferred Plan A to avoid balkanization)


It is time for Pakistanis to analyze the root causes much beyond just one district.

Thank you