M-777 ultra-light howitzers too Expensive, India might drop plans to buy

[The Great One]

Maybe not but still not worth the cost. Simply allow blacklisted companies to bid again in a time bound manner personally monitored by PM. The evaluations if done with proper mindset can be completed in 6 - 8 months and then entire deal can be concluded in 6 - 8 months more. First piece can be delivered within 1 year of signing contract, within 2 we can start our own home based production line on licensed production.

And exactly how much cheaper is Pegasus.

 

[Basel]

That ToT with the panther was what India got for Bofors. You CAN make your own version but it is mostly used to make spares and for maintenance. MKEK till now as on their website still manufacture the gun on their own.
PANTHER
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Barrel Length52 calibre
Barrel Bore Diameter155 mm
Range18 km (M107), 30 km (M549A1 (RAP)), 40 km (ERFB/Base Bleed)
Rate Of FireNormal:4-6 rds/min,Impact: 3 rds in 15 sec. ,Continious:2 rds/min
Howitzer Weight18000 kg
Barrel Weight2240 kg
Number Of Grooves48
Total Length11.6 m
Total Height2.6 m
Total Width3.3 m
Motion SpeedOn Paved Road:20 km/h,On Cross Country:14 km/h,Towing Speed:60 km/h
Height2.6 m
Motor TypeDiesel
Motor Power110 KW
Max Elevation-3/+65 degrees
Crew5
Chamber Of Volume23 Lt
Approximate Barrel Life1500 rds
Similar to Dhanush. Very well designed.

I know specifications of Panter, but my question is still unanswered does India want to replace 120mm or heavy (if they have) mortar with M777?

 

[janon]

I know specifications of Panter, but my question is still unanswered does India want to replace 120mm or heavy (if they have) mortar with M777?

M777 was not intended as a replacement for anything, but as a new, niche capability for the new mountain strike corps being raised. Since we don't have enough road connectivity in the eastern mountains, they were looking for artillery guns that are light enough to be transported by helicopters, but still providing enough firepower. That's where the M777 came in.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

I know specifications of Panter, but my question is still unanswered does India want to replace 120mm or heavy (if they have) mortar with M777?

India want to replace its old small guns 102mm, 120mm etc with with 155mm/52 callable as standard.

 

[Tshering22]

But for this.. the army must be scanned for lobbyists who always use the excuse to say 'poor quality' and import for kickbacks even of the system is good.

 

[GR!FF!N]

I don't know why India doesn't giving Kalyani group a chance,but it looks like they're having some good stuff and very interested to participate in various Arty Inductions.see,if M-777 can't be inducted(which is the best),we should look for alternatives.there are some alternatives,but got blacklisted.we can airlift our 105 mm guns,so I think Kalyani Group's Garuda-105 is a good solution.plus,if we really want to get domestic guns(as we either turned down or blacklisted foreign guns),then there is no other option than build our own or procure from domestic companies.

 

[shree835]

This is BS if true. What alternatives are there? ST Kinetics who were bidding against BAE in the ULH bid were blacklisted after corruption charges and how many years away are Indigenous alternatives and that too their specs are purely on paper. The M777 is a proven and cutting edge piece of kit. I really hope this news isn't true, the M777 is well worth the money.


I don't get Modi/the new Govt's actions- they said defence procurements were a priority for them and the noises regarding two long delayed and desperately needed pieces of kit (RSH and ULH) has been scrapping and cancellation. Modi and Jaitley were briefed by the service chiefs on the need for such equipment and it seems both have ignored the services. Can't say this is a good start to things nor are they living up to their promises to speed up procurements and give the forces the equipment they need.

At least India need to start towards self dependance... Might be Indian company is not as good as BAE or else.... But look at China as an example , today China's military condition is far good then India , becoz they started on self dependence and worked on that.... We also need to take steps towards this....let the time pass we will also have cutting edge stuffs....

 

[Bang Galore]

I don't know why India doesn't giving Kalyani group a chance,but it looks like they're having some good stuff and very interested to participate in various Arty Inductions.see,if M-777 can't be inducted(which is the best),we should look for alternatives.there are some alternatives,but got blacklisted.we can airlift our 105 mm guns,so I think Kalyani Group's Garuda-105 is a good solution.plus,if we really want to get domestic guns(as we either turned down or blacklisted foreign guns),then there is no other option than build our own or procure from domestic companies.

I agree. Of all the Indian groups interested in Artillery guns, they possess the most skill in mettalurgy. Must push them but reward them with enough chances to work things out.

 

[PoKeMon]

Pa ji They are planning to drop the tender due to high cost. India should develop its own as they certainly have the capability. Didnt india get Dhanush Howitzer recently ?

I know.
And this should be an instance where the opportunity is used to order domestic goods. IA has a love affair with everything imported.

Dhanush is built by Govt, there are private Indian companies with howitzers on offer as well(developed using ToT with foreign vendors though).

M777 is better equipped and more precise thanks to its DGMS and IFCSS. Also it comes with Excalibur munition which is GPS guided and can hit precisely upto 40 Km.

IA may want some serious damage inflicting capability in eastern front to disturb the high infrastructure built by chinese and cut their power supply.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

M777 is better equipped and more precise thanks to its DGMS and IFCSS. Also it comes with Excalibur munition which is GPS guided and can hit precisely upto 40 Km.

IA may want some serious damage inflicting capability in eastern front to disturb the high infrastructure built by chinese and cut their power supply.

Nothing that is unique to the M-777 in terms of capabilities. The BF/Kalyani design also has capabilities. WRT SMART Ammo, it can use the Vulcano Ammo being developed by OTOBREDA and which is already being looked at by India for both the IA and IN.

The M-777 had entered the contention, because it was a ready design, was available (nearly) off the shelf; till the production line got closed down. But with the down-side of being completely imported, with little prospects of full local manufacture. Plus being substantially much more expensive.

The entry of contending designs like that from BF/Kalyani obviate most of that, with the down-side that it will take more time to operationalise. Since a War with China is not imminent, that is not critical; but the upside of that option is that its better for India in the longer run to indigenise as much as possible.......which was not part of the M-777 deal.
Better then to consider dropping it.

 

[PoKeMon]

Nothing that is unique to the M-777 in terms of capabilities. The BF/Kalyani design also has capabilities. WRT SMART Ammo, it can use the Vulcano Ammo being developed by OTOBREDA and which is already being looked at by India for both the IA and IN.

The M-777 had entered the contention, because it was a ready design, was available (nearly) off the shelf; till the production line got closed down. But with the down-side of being completely imported, with little prospects of full local manufacture. Plus being substantially much more expensive.

The entry of contending designs like that from BF/Kalyani obviate most of that, with the down-side that it will take more time to operationalise. Since a War with China is not imminent, that is not critical; but the upside of that option is that its better for India in the longer run to indigenise as much as possible.......which was not part of the M-777 deal.
Better then to consider dropping it.

Sir, Indian armed forces are known to procure a mix of foreign proven platform and indigenous developed systems, thanks to their lack of full confidence in home grown weapons which I believe is understandable.

Being developed, will provide, will be as good as XYZ are the phrases which compel them to go for some well proven ones as well. War becomes imminent when enemy find you weak and can get through with his objectives with minimal loses. The idea of raising another corp doesn't comes from nowhere but when it becomes imminent.

More than the war, a strong hold assures a better negotiation capability and we can not let border issues go forever.

However I do agree with your need of indigenisation to lower the cost and induct self dependency but not on the cost of operational capabilities. I guess the latest trial of dhanush must have pour in some confidence in armed forces who in turn might have told finance ministry about it.

Anyways whatever I have written is not unknown to you.

Can Dhanush do this, even with Mil-26?

With Mi26, YES.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Sir, Indian armed forces are known to procure a mix of foreign proven platform and indigenous developed systems, thanks to their lack of full confidence in home grown weapons which I believe is understandable.

Being developed, will provide, will be as good as XYZ are the phrases which compel them to go for some well proven ones as well. War becomes imminent when enemy find you weak and can get through with his objectives with minimal loses. The idea of raising another corp doesn't comes from nowhere but when it becomes imminent.

More than the war, a strong hold assures a better negotiation capability and we can not let border issues go forever.

However I do agree with your need of indigenisation to lower the cost and induct self dependency but not on the cost of operational capabilities. I guess the latest trial of dhanush must have pour in some confidence in armed forces who in turn might have told finance ministry about it.

Anyways whatever I have written is not unknown to you.

Accquistion of Military Hardware is a slowly iterative process most of the time. In case of indigenous sourcing; even more so. No escape from it.
Now "Operational Capabilities" is quite widely defined. Two major components of that are Operational Capabilities for present reqmts and then, Operational Capabilities for future reqmts. It is the first part that I kept in mind when I wrote about the Indo-China situation.
Many factors also have to be considered and weighed-into before a 'carefully considered choice' can be made. Even availability of financial resources have to be considered. When 'pockets get deeper' that factor gets less critical.

Now even decision-making is a dynamic process. No point in locking oneself down to a particular line of thought. The re-think vis-a-vis the M-777 seems to be indicative of that.
It might even be a good thing to be happening.

 

[sancho]

Its better that we go for an indigenous Garuda 105 ultra-light gun system from Kalyani Group. Its a 155mm/39 Caliber.

You are talking about 2 different howitzers! The one on the vehicle is, as the name says, a 105mm howitzer and not comparable to M777, nor suitable for the requirements of IA in that matter. The other is comparable, but not available today, so unless they scrap the whole deal and open a complete new tender to let the Kalyani group participate (if they can get their howitzer ready till then), that's no alternative either.

 

[SAMEET]

great ! here goes another 10 years ! soon our artillery units will be reduced to hand thrown grenade operators.



and who will manufacture? govt owned babu run factories !!

why not ? they got facility to work !

 

[punit]

why not ? they got facility to work !

really! how about advance technical R&D,resources and most of all the zeal to do something. They are not better than any other govt run office !