M-777 ultra-light howitzers too Expensive, India might drop plans to buy

[Basel]

Regarding your inventory other than Panther nothing is very impressive even then as per MKEK it does 40km range.

Panters are good guns and PA will have more advance versions of them as they are now locally produced but this gun is also locally produced now and quite good specially in Kashmir where I witnessed that mobilizing big towed guns is not easy also hectic and time consuming too.

SH1 155-mm Self-Propelled Howitzer | Military-Today.com

 

[Bang Galore]

Dhanush is build based on old ToT of the bofors guns and not a single Indian private company has developed an indigenous howitzer either. The Kalyani group took over a foreign company and their howitzer designs and basically produce them now in India as their own,

Probably our best hope. Kalyani is very good at their stuff. No point in reinventing the wheel now. Take a leap & move on. It is what other Indian companies should do, buy technologies/companies & rework them here.

 

[Basel]

The bigger the number greater the range. In mountain warfare with 32km range in rarified atmosphere you get 60km range as bofors did in Kargil. So for
105mm -> 10km in normal conditions means 20km
You want to hit your enemy as far as possible out of their range.

Your bofors were effective and they were ideal for those kind of conditions but why a light weight 155mm gun for long range when you can use bofors class gun to do the same from safe distance, putting M777 type gun close to fighting area for long range don't look good idea specially against Chinese as they have many options to hit those guns in any conflict.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

It's pretty much one of your M198A2 in a lighter role.

Regarding your inventory other than Panther nothing is very impressive even then as per MKEK it does 40km range.

Yeah sure .. Although PA Arty is much superior to anything India posses as of right now..

 

[Abingdonboy]

Why can't we clear the blacklisted companies to participate again with a written contract and penalties involved, NO BLACKLISTING. The damn howitzers are simply not worth their price.

Probably have a relook at Pegasus again. Got on Antony's bad books (as you pointed out), maybe an alternative. Time to fine companies instead of blacklisting them.

SLWH Pegasus 155mm Lightweight Howitzer - Army Technology

And therein lies the rub- this nonsense policy of Blacklisting actually hurts Indian defence procurement in the long run- leaving certain procurements stalled indefeinelty and leaving the MoD with single-vendor situations which gives them no leverage to push for a better deal.

 

[SrNair]

I have seen PA using 105mm gun and mobilizing them well and 130mm guns were deployed behind from where they were able to hit any point where support fire was needed. That is why I want to know what is special in this gun? why u want a 155mm gun so close to fighting area??

More fire power.Far more than 105 or 130 can offered.

The Dhanush is NOT al alternative to the M777 an Ultra Light Weight Howitzer- there is NO Indian alternative to the M777 right now and won't be for at least 5-7 years.

Money isn't an issue, the MoD is still not using up all its capital expenditure budget.

You already where its problem lies.Delay.
Due to the delaying of UPA its production line closed.
Reopening the deal will cause exorbitant value.And after all its just ionly 145 pieces.
If GoI show any interest in Kalyani artillery system then there is no doubt.
They are aiming for some other plans.

 

[sancho]

Probably our best hope. Kalyani is very good at their stuff. No point in reinventing the wheel now. Take a leap & move on. It is what other Indian companies should do, buy technologies/companies & rework them here.

Of course and I hope our privat industry gains more know how by such take overs or JV's, but we should get rid of the idea that these techs suddenly become Indian and therefor should get any preference, ignoring if they are capable or even suit the requirements. The M777 was evaluated for a specific purpose and nobody of us know if the Kalyani howitzer suits that purpose too. If I'm not wrong they hardly had the chance to test it in India so far, let alone in the mountain areas or under IA's operation. That makes it pointless to consider it at this point as an alternative, only because it could be produced now in India.

More fire power.Far more than 105 or 130 can offered.

You already where its problem lies.Delay.

From the opening article:

Moreover, artillery manufacturer BAE Systems has "failed to come with a viable and compliant offsets package'' in what is supposed to be a government-to-government deal under the US foreign military sales (FMS) programme

 

[hari sud]

There is no comparison of Dhanush with ultra light M777.

But I agree that BAE systems be told to get lost. This gun uses Titanium for some of it components which brings the weight down, but increase from $647 million to $850 million in two years is way too much.

It should be another project for local collaboration. 49% or 70% joint venture will bring one or the other company to make it in India. Now Singapore technologies be asked to bid.

 

[Basel]

More fire power.Far more than 105 or 130 can offered.

Bofors provide that fire power with safe distance, why need a gun to put near fighting zone? does IA want to replace old heavy mortar guns with these?? can they do the job of a mortar gun?

PA have introduced Panters and SH-1s do give more fire power from safe distance, similar to IAs bofors.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

There is no comparison of Dhanush with ultra light M777.

But I agree that BAE systems be told to get lost. This gun uses Titanium for some of it components which brings the weight down, but increase from $647 million to $850 million in two years is way too much.

It should be another project for local collaboration. 49% or 70% joint venture will bring one or the other company to make it in India. Now Singapore technologies be asked to bid.

No need for all that, and its not a big deal anyway. There is already an option to the M-777. Bharat Forge has a Light howitzer design in both 155 mm and 105mm Calibers. The pictures were even on display here. Plus STS-Kinectics may be allowed to bid again and cause a "run-off" competition. However note that the Bharat Forge bid is a JV with ARDE/DRDO. So it stands a strong chance, and I'd rate them higher in the possibility.

 

[jha]

Good for local companies. Hope to see that gun from Kalyani group testing soon. New govt.'s policy to give boost to local production seems to have started showing its effect.

 

[sancho]

But I agree that BAE systems be told to get lost. This gun uses Titanium for some of it components which brings the weight down, but increase from $647 million to $850 million in two years is way too much.

It should be another project for local collaboration. 49% or 70% joint venture will bring one or the other company to make it in India. Now Singapore technologies be asked to bid.

The increase of the costs is caused by the end of the production, so we won't be able to do much about it. But if there is still an issue about the offsets that is posing a problem for a deal, it's a sad delay of course. However, we need these howitzers as fast as possible and can't afford to scrap the deal and re-evaluate the whole from scratch. This is also not one of the big howitzer orders anyway, but for a specific area only. The big deal procurements will be the towed and self propelled howitzers which will be procured in much higher numbers.

 

[indoPunjabi]

I'd suggest MOD to invest $1B to build infrastructure along the Chinese border and you wouldn't need M777 howitzers at all. Desi howitzers would be able to reach the border if you build proper roads.

 

[spectribution]

Panters are good guns and PA will have more advance versions of them as they are now locally produced but this gun is also locally produced now and quite good specially in Kashmir where I witnessed that mobilizing big towed guns is not easy also hectic and time consuming too.

SH1 155-mm Self-Propelled Howitzer | Military-Today.com

That ToT with the panther was what India got for Bofors. You CAN make your own version but it is mostly used to make spares and for maintenance. MKEK till now as on their website still manufacture the gun on their own.

PANTHER

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Barrel Length52 calibre
Barrel Bore Diameter155 mm
Range18 km (M107), 30 km (M549A1 (RAP)), 40 km (ERFB/Base Bleed)
Rate Of FireNormal:4-6 rds/min,Impact: 3 rds in 15 sec. ,Continious:2 rds/min
Howitzer Weight18000 kg
Barrel Weight2240 kg
Number Of Grooves48
Total Length11.6 m
Total Height2.6 m
Total Width3.3 m
Motion SpeedOn Paved Road:20 km/h,On Cross Country:14 km/h,Towing Speed:60 km/h
Height2.6 m
Motor TypeDiesel
Motor Power110 KW
Max Elevation-3/+65 degrees
Crew5
Chamber Of Volume23 Lt
Approximate Barrel Life1500 rds

Similar to Dhanush. Very well designed.

 

[AMCA]

Its better that we go for an indigenous Garuda 105 ultra-light gun system from Kalyani Group. Its a 155mm/39 Caliber.

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