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M-777 ultra-light howitzers too Expensive, India might drop plans to buy

Damn! There's a huge difference in cost of desi howitzer and American one. It's high time Indian government should put money in building defence manufacturing factories to build desi weapons in large numbers. That's the only cost effective solution in a long term.
 
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UPA Govt sold India to USA , they alienated us from our natural ally Russia and asked too much from existing infrastructure than upgrade it. This deal was bogus from Day 1.

Dhanush gives more range and is half the price of an M777. With greater orders unit cost will subsequently keep on decreasing.



Wrong. Opening up to the US is the best thing that happened to India. It forced Russia to re look at India again. Before our relationship was BS. China was being armed with better weapons than India, who then supplied Pakistan. We were able to get access to Nuclear energy, got rid of sanctions, etc.


If you want to blame anyone, then it lies soley on the UPA for their corruption. They sold us out.


There were serious cost escalatons due to the inability of the UPA to make sign off on the deal. For every yr, they delayed the cost went up.

M777 Lightweight Towed Howitzer

M777 Light Towed Howitzer in service with the 10th Mountain Division in Support of Operation Enduring Freedom, Logar Province, Charkh District, Afghanistan
TypeHowitzer
Place of origin
23px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png
United Kingdom
Service history
In service2005 – present
Used byUnited States Marine Corps
United States Army
Saudi Arabian Army
Canadian Army
Australian Army
Specifications
Weight3,420 kg (7,540 lb)[1]
LengthCombat: 10.7 m (35 ft 1 in)
Travel: 9.5 m (31 ft 2 in)
Barrel length200 Inches
Crew7+1
ShellM107, M795, ERFB, M982
Carriagesplit trail
Elevation0° to +71.7°[2]
Rate of fireNormal: 2 rpm
Maximum: 5 rpm
Effective firing rangeM107: 24 km (15 mi)
ERFB: 30 km (18.6 mi)base bleed
Excalibur: 40 km (25 mi)

DRDO 155 mm artillery gun

TypeTowed howitzer
Place of originIndia
Service history
Used byIndian Army
Production history
DesignerARDE
Designed2010-2013
ManufacturerOFB, private industries
ProducedExpected from 2013 onwards
Specifications
Length52 Caliber 8060 mm
Crew6-8
Caliber155 mm
BreechScrew type
RecoilElectro-rheological/Magneto-rheological
Elevation-3 to 70 degree
Traverse+/-25
Rate of fireBurst:3 rounds in 15sec Intense: 15 rounds in 3 minutes Sustained: 60 rounds in 60 min
Maximum firing range60 Km[1]
SightsThermal sight. Gunners display

The range of the Indian gun is 60 KM. Is this accurate? So the only reason we are considering this is due to the weight and the lack of road infrastruture to carry these weapons to those heights in the Northeast? Wow....thank you RAHUL and SONIA again for your incompetence.
 
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UPA Govt sold India to USA , they alienated us from our natural ally Russia and asked too much from existing infrastructure than upgrade it. This deal was bogus from Day 1.

Dhanush gives more range and is half the price of an M777. With greater orders unit cost will subsequently keep on decreasing.
Can Dhanush do this, even with Mil-26?
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M-777 ultra-light howitzers too Expensive, India might drop plans to buy

The long-pending $885 million deal with the US government for 145 ultra-light howitzers is headed for a dead-end, with the Indian defence establishment feeling the artillery guns are way too expensive to buy for the new Army divisions being raised for the border with China.

Defence ministry sources on Monday said though no final decision has been taken as yet, there was "no way" the American M-777 ultra-light howitzers could be bought for over Rs 30 crore apiece.

Moreover, artillery manufacturer BAE Systems has "failed to come with a viable and compliant offsets package'' in what is supposed to be a government-to-government deal under the US foreign military sales (FMS) programme.

"Alternatives to the M-777 guns can be found for half the cost. Though in a different class, the indigenous Dhanush howitzer for instance is being manufactured at a cost of Rs 14 crore per gun," said a source.

Like many other big-ticket defence projects, even the proposed M-777 deal has witnessed its own share of controversies, with huge cost escalations, "leaking" of classified field evaluation reports and allegations of irregularities against a top military officer.

The Army has been demanding 155mm/39-calibre light-weight howitzers, with a strike range over 25-km range, for around a decade now. Guns like the M-777, partly made of titanium, can be swiftly air-lifted to "threatened high-altitude areas" along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC).

China, of course, has built massive infrastructure along the LAC, which allows it to swiftly mobilize troops and equipment to outnumber Indian forces by 3:1 there. The howitzer project, among others, is meant to equip the new XVII Mountain Strike Corps (90,000 troops) being raised to gain "quick reaction force capabilities" against China.

"Our border infrastructure is also coming up, albeit slowly. There are more options to take heavier artillery guns to forward areas now," said the source.

The Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC), led by the defence minister, had in June 2006 formally given the go-ahead for acquiring 145 ultra-light howitzers from abroad. But the frontrunner, the Pegasus gun of Singapore Technology Kinetic's, was ejected after the firm was blacklisted in the corruption scandal against former Ordnance Factory Board chairman Sudipto Ghosh.

India then went in for the M-777 howitzers under the FMS programme, which does not involve an open competition. The US Defence Security Cooperation Agency in January 2010 notified its Congress of the Obama administration's intention to sell the 145 M-777 guns to India for $647 million ( Rs 3,882 crore). The US offer was renewed in August 2013 with the new project cost being pegged at $885 million (Rs 5,310 crore).

Critical Projects:

* Almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 fighters. French Rafale jet won selection process, which began in August 2007, but project yet to be inked. IAF down to just 34 fighter squadrons.

* Over Rs 50,000-crore acquisition of six new-generation stealth submarines, with both land-attack missile capabilities and air-independent propulsion (AIP). Project-75India approved in November 2007 but global tender yet to be issued. Navy down to just nine operational diesel-electric submarines at present, with another four stuck in long refits.

* Over Rs 3,000-crore acquisition of 197 new light-utility helicopters for IAF and Army. Project already scrapped once in December 2007. 440 such helicopters needed to replace virtually obsolete Cheetah/Chetak fleets.

* Over Rs 30,000 crore artillery modernization plan for 145 ultra-light howitzers, 1,580 towed guns, 814 mounted guns, 100 tracked self-propelled guns, 180 wheeled self-propelled guns etc. India has not inducted a single 155mm artillery gun since the Bofors scandal of the mid-1980s.

great ! here goes another 10 years ! soon our artillery units will be reduced to hand thrown grenade operators.

Damn! There's a huge difference in cost of desi howitzer and American one. It's high time Indian government should put money in building defence manufacturing factories to build desi weapons in large numbers. That's the only cost effective solution in a long term.

and who will manufacture? govt owned babu run factories !!
 
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and who will manufacture? govt owned babu run factories !!

Yeah. We lack good Management but that can be fixed under PPP model. Private players should be made stake holders in defence PSUs. That will bring investment and good management and things will go smoothly.
 
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The costs escalated because the production lines have been cut, right?


And I doubt that our light howitzer, which has not even been built AFAIK, is not as light and capable as the M 777....
 
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I know.
And this should be an instance where the opportunity is used to order domestic goods. IA has a love affair with everything imported.

Dhanush is built by Govt, there are private Indian companies with howitzers on offer as well(developed using ToT with foreign vendors though).

Dhanush is build based on old ToT of the bofors guns and not a single Indian private company has developed an indigenous howitzer either. The Kalyani group took over a foreign company and their howitzer designs and basically produce them now in India as their own, TATA is only providing the vehicle as the platform and some subsystems, while the gun is from Denel, Ashok Leyland is offering the platform for a French gun..., so please let us not go over board with the so called indigenous or domestic goods. It's good to have them as alternatives, but in the case of the M777 or the light weight howitzer in general, it's not the origin that counts, but capability!
It doesn't give us anything to hope on indigenous howitzers, when we can't transport and use them to high altitude areas. So if there are issues with the M777, we need to find the next possible option that is suitable and available for the defence of the country, no matter where it comes from!
 
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Very good decision. Induct drdo or indian private sector gun in large numbers. Now cancel all the carbine and gun tenders and induct drdo designed one. work with drdo to fix any shortcomings.
 
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The only difference being one is proposed, and one is operational and proven.

Though investing in indigenous technology is a way to make sure that India (or anyone) controls her next-gen of artillery needs, even if it takes a little extra time for this generation. It also opens the door to making some cash exporting, should the system prove exceptional.
 
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This is BS if true. What alternatives are there? ST Kinetics who were bidding against BAE in the ULH bid were blacklisted after corruption charges and how many years away are Indigenous alternatives and that too their specs are purely on paper. The M777 is a proven and cutting edge piece of kit. I really hope this news isn't true, the M777 is well worth the money.


I don't get Modi/the new Govt's actions- they said defence procurements were a priority for them and the noises regarding two long delayed and desperately needed pieces of kit (RSH and ULH) has been scrapping and cancellation. Modi and Jaitley were briefed by the service chiefs on the need for such equipment and it seems both have ignored the services. Can't say this is a good start to things nor are they living up to their promises to speed up procurements and give the forces the equipment they need.
 
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