Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz opens Pandora Box on Kargil issue

[Bang Galore]

I wonder if my eastern friends will react as favourably when in the future he will appear with the likes of Hafiz Saeed .
or maybe I am over analyzing here..?

We are interested in this General's opinion on Kargil (because he vindicates us), his other positions are completely irrelevant to us. Please understand that the Indian opinion on Musharraf swings between two extremes. He is thought of the reckless general who was responsible for a needless war & much bad blood. On the other hand, we recognise that with him, we came closest to an overall reconciliation (as much as we can reconcile) and that an agreement was only thwarted because events in Pakistan overtook Musharraf. Musharraf has two faces, one full of bluster & another of a realist who almost made peace possible. It just happens that these days he ends up speaking on subjects (Kargil, recent events on LoC) where Indian position is shrill & so is he. Musharraf is torn between appealing to domestic Pakistani sentiment & continuing his legacy as a peace maker. Indian reaction will be likewise, especially since Kargil was a public affair & much of the peace making was behind close doors. That dichotomy will always exist, that is the India-Pakistan story; how it was, how it is & probably how it will remain...for the near future atleast.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

We are interested in this General's opinion on Kargil (because he vindicates us), his other positions are completely irrelevant to us. Please understand that the Indian opinion on Musharraf swings between two extremes. He is thought of the reckless general who was responsible for a needless war & much bad blood..

he didnt open the the Siachin front though, the credit goes to Indians there.
but thanks for clarifying. I would also choose from my opposing side what suits me. e.g. the praise from the Indian general for Musharrafs bravery when he went across the LoC and spent time with troops wonder if you are one of those 99% Indians who missed that article.

 

[Bang Galore]

he didnt open the the Siachin front though, the credit goes to Indians there.
but thanks for clarifying. I would also choose from my opposing side what suits me. e.g. the praise from the Indian general for Musharrafs bravery when he went across the LoC and spent time with troops wonder if you are one of those 99% Indians who missed that article.

Saw Gen. V.K. Singh's comments, it had a context but you are right, we all pick & choose (btw, no one, as far as I know has argued that Pakistani soldiers lack courage, some of your guys were praised by Indian army commanders even during the conflict). Some are just opinions of single individuals, others fall into a more believable pattern. We have been listening for years from Pakistani members here who quote Gen.Krishan Pal's statements which are removed from the context that he made the oft quoted statement after the Armed Forces tribunal indicted him for fudging the war reports in Kargil. Sure Gen Aziz could also have a grouse but his is one among many such accounts and nothing really new has been said that was not known already. Just that this was one more confirmation coming from a person senior in the army hierarchy.

Btw, you are guilty even here of selectively quoting Gen.V.K. Singh. This what else he said:

"As far as General Musharraf is concerned, I would like to put it in two ways. One, as a military commander, I would commend Gen Musharraf for coming 11 km (inside Indian territory) to stay with his troops for a night. It is the courage of a military commander that he came so far knowing that there was danger," Singh told reporters here.

"Second, what was happening on our side you all know and facts are before you. Why did we allow him to go? Why did we allow them to enter? I would only say that there were some mistakes, which need to be rectified," he said.

Singh was commenting on the revelation by a senior retired officer of Pakistan Army that Musharraf had stayed for a night inside Indian territory with his troops before the three-month conflict erupted in Kargil in 1999.

The former Army Chief said the revelation was just a confirmation that Pakistan had started the Kargil war.

"What happened in 1999, we including the Indian Army know that Pakistan Army had started the Kargil war. There is nothing new in it," Singh said.

He said Pakistan had been telling lies and "now only its officials are confirming our stand."

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Saw Gen. V.K. Singh's comments, it had a context but you are right,

I or anyone on our side never said that you guys started the Kargil war. during and immediately after Pakistani leadership decided to deny direct involvement of Pak military but both knew that India knows the real fighters and also knows that Pakistan knows that Indians know the truth .. the confirmation was always there when our air defence batteries shot down the planes and our mountain artillery was engaged and when the dead bodies were exchanged.

Gen Singh is stating the obvious, the diplomatic rambling was done for the sake of our usual rambling. Mushy is not entirely telling lies when he says it was 2nd line forces of NLI and Kashmiri Mujahideen involed in the fight and Indians are also not wrong when they say there were Pak military regular troops. it was a mix of both. it was a cloak and dagger operation from the start any way and during and immediately after it boasting about the facts was not deemed right which is only done in movies where the super villain explains the entire plan of world domination to the captured hero who suddenly turns the tables (some times literally).

if Siashin peaks were not occupied back in the 80s by the Indians then its safe to assume that this war would not have happened. you guys just upped the ante after the 71 success while we were busy saving the world from the communists on the west.

and thus our perpetual war of the words ensured along with the skirmishes on the disputed territory from time to time. throw in BLA, Bramdagh Bughti & his Indian passport, Ilyas Kashmiri & Hafiz Saeed & his stupid grin & we got enough material to curse each other for our lifetime.

 

[batmannow]

Says the guy paying homage to a western comic book hero as his username. Talk about irony.

beta its, a phillosphy can be implemented any where, & at anytime like charles law of chemstry? but you dont need tobe charles to use that formula?
but just bieng impressed by gora,s is bigger irony?isnt it
while being a slump dog millionere? look who is talking, greatest of all ironies

 

[batmannow]

I or anyone on our side never said that you guys started the Kargil war. during and immediately after Pakistani leadership decided to deny direct involvement of Pak military but both knew that India knows the real fighters and also knows that Pakistan knows that Indians know the truth .. the confirmation was always there when our air defence batteries shot down the planes and our mountain artillery was engaged and when the dead bodies were exchanged.

Gen Singh is stating the obvious, the diplomatic rambling was done for the sake of our usual rambling. Mushy is not entirely telling lies when he says it was 2nd line forces of NLI and Kashmiri Mujahideen involed in the fight and Indians are also not wrong when they say there were Pak military regular troops. it was a mix of both. it was a cloak and dagger operation from the start any way and during and immediately after it boasting about the facts was not deemed right which is only done in movies where the super villain explains the entire plan of world domination to the captured hero who suddenly turns the tables (some times literally).

if Siashin peaks were not occupied back in the 80s by the Indians then its safe to assume that this war would not have happened. you guys just upped the ante after the 71 success while we were busy saving the world from the communists on the west.

and thus our perpetual war of the words ensured along with the skirmishes on the disputed territory from time to time. throw in BLA, Bramdagh Bughti & his Indian passport, Ilyas Kashmiri & Hafiz Saeed & his stupid grin & we got enough material to curse each other for our lifetime.

& why siachen happened? because of kashmir?
bt why kashmir happened?

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

& why siachen happened? because of kashmir?
bt why kashmir happened?

because of Pakistan attacking Kashmir.

 

[karan.1970]

& why siachen happened? because of kashmir?
bt why kashmir happened?

Because Jinnah lost his nerve and sent in Pakistani irregulars to capture Kashmir in 1947.. If he hadn't done that, complete Kashmir would have been Pakistan

 

[batmannow]

Because Jinnah lost his nerve and sent in Pakistani irregulars to capture Kashmir in 1947.. If he hadn't done that, complete Kashmir would have been Pakistan

sory i hvnt asked you, any question, so dont put your dam raj-niti insides?

 

[karan.1970]

sory i hvnt asked you, any question, so dont put your dam raj-niti insides?

Pata hai sacch kyon chubhta hai.. Kyonki us mein point hota hai

 

[batmannow]

Pata hai sacch kyon chubhta hai.. Kyonki us mein point hota hai

watch this point! some body wants to make you happy

 

[batmannow]

because of Pakistan attacking Kashmir.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

what does that mean ??

 

[batmannow]

Almost all were on board on Kargil operation

Almost all were on board on Kargil operation - thenews.com.pk
Mian Saifur Rehman
Monday, February 04, 2013
From Print Edition





Kargil operation was an outcome of the strong, innermost desire of majority of the armed forces’ seniors to counterbalance Indian army’s illegal occupation of Siachen and it was not unknown to the commanders and other armed forces’ seniors in the 2nd-in-command and 3rd-in-command tiers, The News has learnt from reliable sources, one of them being a former officer of a very senior position, commanding an important formation in the region concerned.

The main source of information has requested anonymity for the reasons of security (as per his perception) and in view of the sensitivity of the issue. The News has more than reliable information available, through direct contact and through other channels, that this source happened to be one of the master planners and implementers of the Kargil operation and was based in the area.

According to the main source, the question does not arise that an operation of such a scale involving constant reconnaissance and surveillance, massive logistics, transportation and deployment would have gone unnoticed among the senior ranks that form the core of the decision-making body within the armed forces. This core body includes corps commanders, head of ISI, MI and other ranks next in command including the head of analysis wing of ISI, a post that was held by Lt Gen (R) Shahid Aziz who is now demonstrating total ignorance and innocence about the operation. Even other seniors of the same top category, from the top brass, were in the know of these things, plans.

Some might have been unaware of the details as to the timing of the operation in the minutest detail but that they didn’t have even a bit of idea about the operation, is unthinkable, says the main source and other sources acquainted with the functioning of armed forces’ and intelligence networks’ systems.

The sources say that there was nothing unusual about the Kargil operation which means there is usually nothing wrong with such strategies if they remain within the military tactical domain, particularly when two countries’ armies remain in a state of tension-ridden alertness against any possible clash or conflict, the like of which was witnessed a few days back on the LoC (Line of Control) where the soldier’s beheading episode (tragedy) became a very hot topic in Indian media in particular. When the situation is such, armies being positioned in such a state of unusual preparedness, strategic plans continue to be evolved to gain an edge or a strategic advantage against the adversaries, even during peace time. It is a routine practice building crisis scenarios, analysing them in depth and then finding solutions.

Explaining the dynamics of war, the sources disclosed that even wars don’t break out so abruptly most of the times, except on few occasions when suddenly emerging irritants trigger war.

According to sources, the illegal occupation of the highest battlefield of the world, Siachen, by Indian forces was the primary cause prompting the Pakistani armed forces to chalk out a strategy to gain a strategic advantage against Indian forces that can be termed in the special jargon as tit-for-tat. The predetermined constant factor was, however, remaining within the confines of tactical moves so that the matter doesn’t escalate beyond a certain limit to turn unmanageable.

That never meant occupation in the strictest sense of the term or in the international laws’ perspective, explained the sources, although India had violated the global norms and laws of territorial sovereignty by sending its troops to Siachen and by occupying it.

When asked to elaborate, the sources explained that, acting somewhat in the manner the Indian forces had conducted their matters prior to Siachen’s occupation, the Pakistani forces and surveillance setups carried out recce for quite some time to find out that more than two dozen peaks on the other side had continued to remain vacant. In a tit-for-tat move, plans were made to occupy the peaks that also provided Pakistani forces a tactical, strategic edge over Indian forces, being located at an advantageous height. Once occupied, there was no legal, military or international mechanism available to India to lodge a complaint or to force Pakistan to withdraw. The tragedy of Pakistan soldiers that followed, owes to different factors, that of political nature involving follies of the political bigwigs. The sources added that it was technically impracticable for India to prove that those peaks were its bona fide territory or were in its lawful occupation.

Among others, the sources were also asked the question as to how could the armed forces act in isolation from the world opinion and simultaneously without being in consonance with the government or the prime minister of the day and without the knowledge — if not endorsement — of other key stakeholders like the officers of the rank of corps commanders and ISI commanders.

When this information, of which one or two pieces were already known, was put to intelligentsia including those having deep insight into defence matters, they opined that either the then COAS General Pervez Musharraf was too clever and shrewd for his senior colleagues in the forces or the latter were mountains of complacency, never bothered about their surroundings or things brewing up right in their flanks, although they were officially duty-bound to be vigilant and well-informed. It was — and still is — the requirement of the military profession. And as for the innocence of the then civilian regime headed by a sharp-witted and versatile prime minister, it was unparalleled. Even a small departmental store is exempt from this much innocence.

Things happening (or even those brewing up) are in the knowledge of the people working there, at least to those who are key position-holders. In the armed forces, at the corps commanders’ level, the senses and reflexes rather get honed up to such an extent that your sensing-and-smelling instinct goes yet sharper.

These analysts and the sources even opine that it should be made mandatory not to induct so much naive and self-complacent people in sensitive positions on which hinges the fate, solidarity or dignity of a country.

About the anonymity factor, the intelligentsia, however, opined that it would have been yet more conscientious on the part of the main source had he allowed his name to be publicised.But anonymity is an accepted norm in media reporting insofar as the source concerned is totally relative and relevant to the situation.

These analysts also opine that people in other parts of the world might be laughing at our top brass’ innocence and self-complacency and more so on the eruptions of so many ‘Inkishifaat’ (disclosures at self-exoneration).

And before the talk concluded, the sources also suggested going further deep into the cases of court-martial instituted against Indian commanders and other officers. They were reportedly court-martialled for negligence of the worst order that resulted in the occupation of strategically advantageous peaks, by Pakistani forces.

Disclaimer: This story has nothing to do with General (R) Pervez Musharraf directly. The venue and timing of meeting with the main source can be disclosed if and when necessary/unavoidable.

 

[karan.1970]

watch this point! some body wants to make you happy

Jitne marzi points laga lo. Th fact of the matter is that 1 mistake of Jinnah took the main part of Kashmir away from Pakistanis..