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Losing interest in Indus civilization

Maybe the real reason is they saw map one day and realized India equates to Holy Ganga and that Indus is 92% in Pakistan with 3% In Afghanistan, 2% in China measly 3% in India. Even paan intoxicatation can't overcome physical geographic reality.
Thanks. Consider this as a "fly by" - I could just not resist from firing a burst at the Ganga's. I got to keep the Ganga's tickled.

This adage 'Ganga' I have given to - well you know who has a thought out reason. If you look at map of South Asia two major rivers stare out at you. They are Indus on the west with it's green strip of irrigated land Ganga Basin in the east.

The differance between the two is stark. The Indus Basin essentialy is extention of the Middle East dry climate and is marked as semi-arid or aride desert. Only the mighty Indus provides us the water for irrigation otherwise it would be belly up for Pakistan. Therefore Indus Basin defines Pakistan and did so to our ancestors.

Ganga on the other hand is wet, damp and was tropical jungles until not long ago with monkeys, elephants and homo sapiens of cetain variety hanging off the trees. They contributed to no civilization whatsoever. Vast majority of Indian's are part or full descendants of these and thus my preferance for the term 'Ganga'. It captures the essence of what India is and Pakistan is NOT. We are NOT a Ganga people or culture. Not one inch of our land comes anywhere near the Ganga. For me the term Ganga sums up India as opposed to Indus Pakistan. That is why I suggest people here pick up that term please. When I do back here I expect 'Ganga' to be used more frequently.

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Look at the physical map of South Asia. You can clearly see Indus Basin seprarated from India by the desert. Ganga Basin which has over 700 million Indians living within it and of course the Dravid India with another 400 million. Only Indian Punjab falls within the geography of Pakistan.

Indian writers know this that is why they will do anything to hyphenate Indus with Ganga in a desperate attempt to leech or suck off Indus - because as we know that is the cradle of civilization in our part of the world. Thus they come up with Indo-Ganga basin when that is incorrect. The two are entirely distinct regions with distinct climates. We must do eveything to link (rightly) Ganga/Hindu > India. Conversely Indus/Muslim > Pakistan. Ganga discharges flows toward and discharges into the Bay of Bengal whereas Indus flows toward and discharges into Arabian Sea.

Even outsiders are slowly realizing this - that geography of the Indus is what underpins Pakistan. Take the time to read this article by Robert Kaplan please.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2012/06/18/whats-wrong-with-pakistan/
http://www.geocurrents.info/geonote...atic-theory-of-pakistans-geographical-destiny


@Sinopakfriend
Where the hell was your Ganga dump during IVC times? It did not even make a mark on history. Our land on the other is cradle of civilization. Don't ever forget that.

I know. We gave you language. We gave you culture. We even gave you the makings of a religion. Now it would be nice if you could thank us.
Oh yes. They all packed their bags, every man, woman and child including the beasts and went to the Ganga. How so freakin convenient. What next. All of Mesopotamia also legged it to Ganga?


Every time I go to Pakistan I walk on history. I walk where our ancestors are buried. If the land could speak, wow would it have a story to tell. All over Pakistan are littered the relics and achievements of our great ancestors.

Now tell me Ganga, how does it feel to walk over land that produced nothing but junglees? How does it feel to look across to other lands to gain any heritage because your ancestors did not have any? Pretending and imagining something that you have nothing to do is delusion. Where exactly are you from in Ganga?


Now tell me
My family are from the Gandhara region of Pakistan. Honestly for most of my life I was unaware about it's central role in the history of Central/South Asia and it's ancient connections through the Silk Road to China whence the Buddhism travelled to China. Over time as I read more and more I became a avid fan of history. Of course I am a muslim but at a personal level it gives me deep satisfaction that my ancestors played such a central role in history. When I get time I will be finishing of a thread on this.

The problem is we have 1.3 billion with no history crying to claim some sort of legiitimacy because they don't have anything in the Ganga so they use all manner of subterfuge to claim what lies under our soil and which was product of our ancestors effort and intelligence.
@Sinopakfriend @django
What they do is grab hold intangible concepts like culture and vacous definitives like Hinduism - a term of recent vintage which even Supreme Court of India failed to describe. Then these intangibles are retro-fitted to 5,000 years. It's like "hey there were Hindus in Harrapa" because they inhaled air and walked on two legs. Oh we know they were Hindus because of their culture and yes the swastika (never mind that it's been found in Urals andv even further West). You can't even define culture today as it is complrex matrix like air but these Gangadesis can figure out that 5,000 years ago it was their culture.

The clever part is they walk away with a smile - even if you kick their teeth out. Reason is by being just embroiled with us their name gets linked with our heritage. It's like in boxing every wannabe wants to fight the champ. Not because they will win but because just fighting the champ elevates their status in the sense that it shows they must be something to have fought the champ.

So when they jump in and start claming IVC in actual fact they have already gained by associating themselves with something they have nothing to do with. Anyway Sino and Django I have to go now before I get drawn too much into this. Take care guys until next time. Spread the good message.

Here for you guy's. History stamped on our land








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Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Archaeology and Museum Department and the Cultural Bureau of Shanxi province of China signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) to establish four museums, protect and preserve archaeological and heritage sites in different areas of the province.

The signing ceremony was held at Conference Room of the Tourism Corporation Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

Director Archaeology Dr Abdul Samad and a member of China delegation signed the MoU.
Under the MoU, the museums, archaeological and heritage sites would be preserved and renovated while four museums would be established in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

The Chinese delegation said that an educational institution would be established at the University of Peshawar to start Chinese language course and create awareness about the culture of China to people of this part of the world.

China would establish four international standard museums in the province having libraries and other modern facilities.
CPEC, honestly is modern iteration of the past. Gandhara wa symbiosis of Central Asia/Indus Valley and China. The same route that carried Buddhism north along the Silk Road will bring economic revolution to Pakistan. Amazingly the modern Karakorum Highway begins right next to Taxila and traverses many of the Gandhara Greco-Buddhist sites you see in the video.
I will. I am sponge for knowledge. I confess I have no idea what that is but I am going to read up on this. Thanks ...
At least two Indians have made peace with this issue but you got the reason wrong.

CHEERS!
 
Losing interest in Indus civilization

Many Indians are interested in Indus civilization because they associate their country's science & engineering talent with this civilization. They think their country is making strides in science & technology because of the heritage of Indus civilization.

But if the same Indians come to know of the dark truth about India's science & technology, the interest in Indus civilization would fizzle out instantly. Many of India's successes and failures are hidden in mystery and things actually may not be as they appear. When I pondered over the real technological capability of India, I instantly felt like giving the Indus valley civilization discussion a complete miss. In light of these revelations, even if Indus civilization indeed belongs to India, I wouldn't give two hoots.

There are strong reasons to believe that India's civilian space programs and military R&D projects may be non-indigenous or even fake. Indian technology doesn't seem to be about innovation/ingenuity. It is probably about purchasing and managing. The list of misleading red herrings is long. For instance, if India's Mars and Lunar missions are real, why is it unable to invent engines for it's military plane even after so many decades of trying? If Indian space missions are real, why are Indian programmers/coders so notoriously incompetent? Why is India harassed by a tiny country of Pakistan? Please don't cite Western awards and other significant 'recognition' of Indian science & technology. West has it's own agenda and their hyped certificates often don't indicate real merit.

The question is why do Indians do it? Why would Indians fabricate a facade about their science & technology prowess? I can think of two answers: One, to deter nuclear attacks by creating a camouflage of great strength. Two, to make money by siphoning R&D funds. The point they want to convey is: "Since we are capable of making civilian rockets, we are also capable of making effective and functioning nukes. So beware and refrain from using your nukes."
A media house concurs with you. But the revelation is in the article's last sentence. It's the word 'moneybags'. It means India's strategies are more about throwing money than any ingenuity.

Killing of Ummer Fayaz: Pakistan continues to mock India, but does New Delhi have a retribution plan?

Prakash KatochMay, 11 2017 08:15:42 IST

With the abduction and killing of Lieutenant Ummer Fayaz while on leave in Kulgam (Jammu and Kashmir), Pakistan has raised the level of its proxy war to a new high, more so since it comes close to the beheading of Naib Subedar Paramjit Singh and BSF head constable Prem Sagar by a Pakistani BAT on 30 April. Whether the significance of these incidents matters to policymakers beyond the numbers is not known, notwithstanding the rhetoric.

Fayaz's life was brutally snuffed out just as he had commenced his career in the Indian Army. What Pakistan is doing is literally mocking the Government of India knowing full well that its focus is more on trade, economy and commerce. Do we realise what hybrid war is all about and that it is militarily-strong nations that the world respects? Donald Trump’s references to Kim Jong-un, Xi Jinping and increased financial and military assistance to Pakistan being just a few indicators. Stone-pelting close to Fayaz’s house while his funeral was underway, greatly undermines Chief Minister Mehbooba Mufti, who recently told the media not to describe these youth as stone-pelters.

The late MK Dhar, who was former joint director of IB, wrote in his 2005 book Open Secrets: India’s intelligence unveiled, "I continued to advocate for an aggressive and proactive counter and forward intelligence thrust against Pakistan. My voice was rarely heard and mostly ignored… The Pakistani establishment is a geopolitical bully. The best response to blunt such a bully is to take the war inside his home. India has allowed itself to be blackmailed by Pakistan even before it went nuclear. The sabre-rattling of 'coercive diplomacy', which is nothing but sterile military power, cannot convince the Islamist Pakistani establishment that India can take the border skirmishes inside their homes and hit at the very roots of the jaundiced Islamist groups."

Soldiers pay respect to Lieutenant Ummer Fayaz at his funeral on Wednesday. Firstpost/Sameer YasirSoldiers pay respect to Lieutenant Ummer Fayaz at his funeral on Wednesday. Firstpost/Sameer Yasir
Recently, a former RAW official has gone on record as saying the present situation in Jammu and Kashmir is because Delhi is trying to change the character of the Valley and Pakistan has nothing to do with it. Ironically, just before Hizbul Mujahideen commander Burhan Wani was killed, RAW continued to advise policymakers that Hurriyat separatists were inconsequential, which gave them a free hand to radicalise the youth and to visit Pakistan's high commission. Intel news now that Hurriyat has been funding stone-pelters and former high commissioner Abdul Basit is linked to all this, doesn’t impress all that much when for years IB has been funding the Hurriyat.

The Pakistan Army’s anti-India agenda is irreversible. It has never won a war and can’t get over the ignominy of losing East Pakistan and having 93,000 prisoners of war taken by India. Jihad against India is not going to end even if Kashmir is resolved. The bible of Pakistan’s army is the Quranic Concept of War authored by Brigadier SK Malik of the Pakistan Army in 1979. It includes a 13-page preface by Allah Buksh K Brohi, former Pakistani High Commissioner to India, and Zia-Ul-Haq, former President of Pakistan and army chief, starting off the book with the concept of jihad within Islam, justifying terrorism and explaining that jihad is not simply the domain of the military, but every citizen must participate in jihad. Little wonder then Pervez Hoodbhoy, Pakistani nuclear physicist, wrote in 2008, "The promotion of militarism in Pakistan’s schools, colleges and universities has had profound effect on young people, with militant jihad having become a part of the culture in college and university campuses, and armed groups inviting students for jihad in Kashmir and Afghanistan."

It is time we set aside rhetoric of the ‘surgical strike’ and National Security Advisor Ajit Doval's threat that 'if there is one more Uri, Pakistan will lose Balochistan'. Retribution at the army unit-level will invariably be extracted, albeit what gets publicised is only fire assaults. This suits Pakistan portraying India as a soft State. But the 'free hand to the Army' is accompanied by a Supreme Court ruling to file an FIR for every encounter. In 1990, Pakistani infiltrators interrogated at the joint interrogation centre in Srinagar revealed that the ISI briefed them to go and kill Indians and take advantage of as many Kashmiri girls, with the promise of no prosecution if they get caught. Additionally, they were assured that Indian human right activists would be screaming to have them released.

Today, there are self-styled Gandhians advocating that the other cheek be offered when slapped, without knowing that in 1947 Mahatma Gandhi told Brigadier (later Lieutenant-General) LP Sen, then Commander of the 191 Infantry Brigade, "If one has to choose between cowardice and violence, I will choose violence."

Do we as a nation understand hybrid warfare — the major components of which include special operations, information operations, cyber warfare, regular and irregular operations? Rameshwar Nath Kao's 'Kaoboys' did a wonderful job in the 1970s, but warfare has moved beyond intelligence to special operations combining both external intelligence and special forces — something India fails to acknowledge. Hence, we have adverse strategic asymmetry vis-à-vis Pakistan and China at a sub-conventional level.

Then, there is the constituency that wants to keep the military aside instead of optimising its capabilities.
The use of the National Security Guard instead of the army's special forces (who had arrived before the NSG) at the IAF base in Pathankot and sending Indo Tibetan Border Police commandos to Afghanistan instead of special forces in ITBP uniform (although proposed) are examples — both ironically at the insistence of Doval. The subtle wedge being driven between the armed forces and the police forces, though attributed to bureaucratic machinations, actually indicates the finesse with which our adversaries are targeting India internally.

Hybrid war is not waged against the military but against a nation. The clichés of "appropriate response" and "will do at time and place of our choosing" executed at the tactical level will not suffice. This is a vicious hybrid war in which India must respond at the strategic level against the Pakistan Army. The earlier done, the better and it must be carried out without waiting for a politically-opportune moment — read 2019 General Election. Our response spanning the full range of hybrid war must be ruthlessly taken deep inside Pakistan at the strategic level. The prime minister’s advisors and know-alls in the administration may have convinced him India doesn't need a cohesive national security strategy. But not being proactive in hybrid warfare will leave us holding our moneybags, talking trade and economy, but no one will respect us.

The author is a veteran lieutenant-general of the Indian Army

Published Date: May 11, 2017 08:12 am | Updated Date: May 11, 2017 08:15 am

http://www.firstpost.com/india/the-...ew-delhi-have-a-retribution-plan-3436910.html
 
I would love to read more about the Sanskrit language.
 
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