LOCKHEED MARTIN AWARDED TSS CONTRACT FOR PAKISTANI AH-1Z

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Sorry Bilal, don't mean to dump on your favorites but the Rooivalk was a disaster lesson in program management, development, production, reliability, sustenance, and maintenance.

Don't have better hopes for Mk2; my own feeling is they will never get enough financing to start a meaningful program given all the money they bled when they were not so cash-strapped.

I believe Z-10s for the plains (maybe other places as well if they can get the new Safran engines on them) and T-129s for high-altitude operation remain the best bet.

Fair.

Very well put.

Readers should please check actual payloads carried by the Apache in combat. It is still twice as much as the Marine AH-1F/S carry operationally but with enough engine power, a lighter helicopter is still just as effective, specially when used in flights of two or four at a time.

You are usually not limited by your payload in a sortie (if you can carry three or four missiles and a 19-pack of rockets per helicopter) but by fuel and other considerations. Hard to fly and maneuver with maximum payloads also, even for an Apache.

Furthermore, even though the 30mm cannon is effective against tanks, please Google the effects of firing a 30mm cannon from the Apache: the need to re-boresight it after every firing and its vibration effects on the fuselage are educational. The 20mm is better for infantry and APCs, and these days Thermobaric rockets and Hellfires are being employed primarily for anti-personnel duties.

Regarding the T-129, it's worth remembering that the Turks are also willing to loop Pakistan into the T-129 via work share, which would not only help with local support for Pakistani units, but help PAC commercially (by having source some parts for the Turkish forces). If we can get LHTEC to let us set up a MRO facility for the turboshaft, that would basically make this helicopter doable.

Having the Z-10 as the anti-armour beater along the plains and deserts wouldn't be a bad idea either. The PLA's massive scale will make this platform very competitive in terms of cost (if not already). Cost is key if one intends to build numbers, which is essential if one wants thorough CAS coverage in Punjab and Sindh. The Army will want to ensure that cooling and resistance to sand and debris take priority above hot-and-high operations, especially if the T-129 is being sought for the latter. The AVIC-Safran WZ16 turboshaft might help in terms of getting the Z-10 to carry a mmW radar as well as lots of munitions.

 

[Khafee]

The first part is your opinion which has no basis. The only other operater with the Viper will be the USMC. Several other countries will be operating the Guardian as well as India, including Saudia Arabia.

My post also mentioned cruise speed not just the maximum.

It's true the Guardian out ranges the Viper, but climb rate, important for evasive tactics, is better with the viper.

2000 for the Guardian

http://www.copybook.com/news/upgraded-apaches-for-british-army

2,800 for the Viper

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=1292

The viper will also come with the ability to engage air targets with the sidewinder, of which the PAF has ample stocks.
Your assertion that the S.Korean choice for their tender equates to the superiority of the Apache makes no sense. It is based on many different requirements and parameters.

Viper is more or less sanction proof, because of it's commonality with the UH1. the Apache is not.

"Delivering unmatched multi-mission flexibility, threats are dispatched while employing advanced counter measure technologies, making it the ultimate attack helicopter. The Bell AH-1Z and the Bell UH-1Y have 84% identicality and commonality of major components. Shared dynamics, avionics and survivability suites vastly reduce the logistical tail, procurement and training costs required to support a large fleet of mixed type aircraft."

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Viper is more or less sanction proof, because of it's commonality with the UH1. the Apache is not.

"Delivering unmatched multi-mission flexibility, threats are dispatched while employing advanced counter measure technologies, making it the ultimate attack helicopter. The Bell AH-1Z and the Bell UH-1Y have 84% identicality and commonality of major components. Shared dynamics, avionics and survivability suites vastly reduce the logistical tail, procurement and training costs required to support a large fleet of mixed type aircraft."

The GE T700 turboshaft is also very common thanks to the widespread adoption of the S-70 Black Hawk helicopter. Interestingly, even Turkey will be manufacturing the T700 under license soon (along with the S-70i).

 

[Khafee]

@waz @Windjammer and others

"Bell Helicopter has been put on contract to build nine more AH-1Z Viper gunship helicopters for Pakistan, as part of a larger foreign military sales package for up to 15 helicopters and 1,000 Lockheed Martin AGM-114 Hellfire-series missiles that was approved last April."
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pakistan-orders-nine-more-bell-ah-1z-gunships-423882/

So basically 15 +9 = 24?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@waz @Windjammer and others

"Bell Helicopter has been put on contract to build nine more AH-1Z Viper gunship helicopters for Pakistan, as part of a larger foreign military sales package for up to 15 helicopters and 1,000 Lockheed Martin AGM-114 Hellfire-series missiles that was approved last April."
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pakistan-orders-nine-more-bell-ah-1z-gunships-423882/

So basically 15 +9 = 24?

No it's part of the 15.

1. April 2015: Dept. of State approves the sale of 15 AH-1Z to Pakistan
2. January 2016: Dept. of Defense issues contract for 2 AH-1Z for Pakistan
3. April 2016: Dept. of Defense issues contract for 9 AH-1Z for Pakistan.

Since the DSCA notice doesn't have an option clause, the remaining 4 AH-1Z will be ordered, probably with subsequent DoD orders for the USMC.

That said, considering the investment made in inducting the AH-1Z and the willingness of Republican-led U.S. of releasing aid to Pakistan for COIN, I expect additional AH-1Zs.

@Naif al Hilali Considering the high level of commonality between the AH-1Z and UH-1Y, do you expect the PAA to take up a few UH-1Ys in the utility role? Perhaps as a SOF support unit for the AH-1Z?

 

[MilSpec]

@Irfan Baloch ring a bell ?
https://defence.pk/threads/z-10-or-...-the-pakistan-army.40993/page-13#post-3864076

 

[Naif al Hilali]

No it's part of the 15.

1. April 2015: Dept. of State approves the sale of 15 AH-1Z to Pakistan
2. January 2016: Dept. of Defense issues contract for 2 AH-1Z for Pakistan
3. April 2016: Dept. of Defense issues contract for 9 AH-1Z for Pakistan.

Since the DSCA notice doesn't have an option clause, the remaining 4 AH-1Z will be ordered, probably with subsequent DoD orders for the USMC.

That said, considering the investment made in inducting the AH-1Z and the willingness of Republican-led U.S. of releasing aid to Pakistan for COIN, I expect additional AH-1Zs.

@Naif al Hilali Considering the high level of commonality between the AH-1Z and UH-1Y, do you expect the PAA to take up a few UH-1Ys in the utility role? Perhaps as a SOF support unit for the AH-1Z?

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Not privy to armed forces internal thinking, brother. My feeling is that Pakistan will be more closely working with Augusta Westland (Leonardo now) and because of them TAI in the future - and that this might have been another reason in the company's divorce from India apart from the kickbacks scandal. The Chinese as well as the Russian Mil bureau (don't see Kamov coming into play though they have great experience in shipborne operations) should continue playing their part when their offerings meet Pakistani requirements.

The Sikorsky S-70 is also surprisingly reasonably priced, uses GE T-700 engines similar to the AH-1Z Vipers (but not quite the same), and is to be manufactured in both Turkey and Saudi Arabia. But you are correct in that if Pakistan Army is to look beyond Leonardo, they will probably go for the UH-1Y due to the great parts commonality with the Vipers and a Pakistani preference for staying loyal to suppliers.

With the possibly changing US-Pakistani political landscape, I see more co-operation with the Italians, Turks, Russian, and Chinese in the future. But who knows, one heart attack (or change of heart) and everything changes overnight.

Thank you for bringing up the sand and cooling part for the Z-10. People do not realize that there is much more to engine choice than weight and thrust alone. That is why I am looking forward (but not hopeful yet) of the Safran engine integration into the Z-10. But who knows, the Chinese engine might prove to be quite good operationally.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Not privy to armed forces internal thinking, brother. My feeling is that Pakistan will be more closely working with Augusta Westland (Leonardo now) and because of them TAI in the future - and that this might have been another reason in the company's divorce from India apart from the kickbacks scandal. The Chinese as well as the Russian Mil bureau (don't see Kamov coming into play though they have great experience in shipborne operations) should continue playing their part when their offerings meet Pakistani requirements.

The Sikorsky S-70 is also surprisingly reasonably priced, uses GE T-700 engines similar to the AH-1Z Vipers (but not quite the same), and is to be manufactured in both Turkey and Saudi Arabia. But you are correct in that if Pakistan Army is to look beyond Leonardo, they will probably go for the UH-1Y due to the great parts commonality with the Vipers and a Pakistani preference for staying loyal to suppliers.

With the possibly changing US-Pakistani political landscape, I see more co-operation with the Italians, Turks, Russian, and Chinese in the future. But who knows, one heart attack (or change of heart) and everything changes overnight.

Thank you for bringing up the sand and cooling part for the Z-10. People do not realize that there is much more to engine choice than weight and thrust alone. That is why I am looking forward (but not hopeful yet) of the Safran engine integration into the Z-10. But who knows, the Chinese engine might prove to be quite good operationally.

The S-70i being produced in Turkey (with an added partial manufacturing line in KSA) could be a factor. I know the armed forces ultimately selected the AW139 for the SAR role, but like the T-129, it appears that the AW139's hot-and-high operations were a major contributor to its success. The AW139 will likely see additional unit orders considering the fact that PAC is to open up a MRO line for the P&WC PT6.

On the other hand, there is no doubting the Black Hawk's reliability, versatility, and distributed supply chain (with Turkey involved no less). In the end, the S-70i could end up being the more affordable way to phase out aging middling utility helicopters, such as the Puma and old Hueys. Speaking of being loyal to suppliers, Lockheed Martin owns Sikorsky and TAI is a full licensed manufacturer.

 

[Naif al Hilali]

The S-70i being produced in Turkey (with an added partial manufacturing line in KSA) could be a factor. I know the armed forces ultimately selected the AW139 for the SAR role, but like the T-129, it appears that the AW139's hot-and-high operations were a major contributor to its success. The AW139 will likely see additional unit orders considering the fact that PAC is to open up a MRO line for the P&WC PT6.

On the other hand, there is no doubting the Black Hawk's reliability, versatility, and distributed supply chain (with Turkey involved no less). In the end, the S-70i could end up being the more affordable way to phase out aging middling utility helicopters, such as the Puma and old Hueys. Speaking of being loyal to suppliers, Lockheed Martin owns Sikorsky and TAI is a full licensed manufacturer.

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

I would have the S-70 at the top of the list if it were not for political considerations. I think if the Army were to go American again they would likely pick one of the two and they might lean towards the UH-1Y then. But then there is the inter-operability and commonality with the Saudi and Turkish S-70s.

Seems for the time being that the AW139 is to be slotted into the Light Utility role in the future as well as SearchAndRescue (replacing the old Hueys in the first role) but nothing concrete yet, with the Mi17/171 being considered for the Medium Utility role.

Sorry about not getting around to answering your original question - got sidetracked there. Do you think the Mi-35 has not been selected for Special Forces Operations? I don't believe there is enough budget and logistical room for more than one airframe (20-25 aircraft) in the Army's plans. So, I don't personally see the UH-1Ys being selected for that role alone.

Anyway, these things are always very fluid and I might feel differently next year or even tomorrow. What matters is what Bajwa and his successors feel and think.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

I would have the S-70 at the top of the list if it were not for political considerations. I think if the Army were to go American again they would likely pick one of the two and they might lean towards the UH-1Y then. But then there is the inter-operability and commonality with the Saudi and Turkish S-70s.

Seems for the time being that the AW139 is to be slotted into the Light Utility role in the future as well as SearchAndRescue (replacing the old Hueys in the first role) but nothing concrete yet, with the Mi17/171 being considered for the Medium Utility role.

Sorry about not getting around to answering your original question - got sidetracked there. Do you think the Mi-35 has not been selected for Special Forces Operations? I don't believe there is enough budget and logistical room for more than one airframe (20-25 aircraft) in the Army's plans. So, I don't personally see the UH-1Ys being selected for that role alone.

Anyway, these things are always very fluid and I might feel differently next year or even tomorrow. What matters is what Bajwa and his successors feel and think.

I agree with you regarding the Mi-35 in that there would only be one platform sought for hot-zone insertion and extraction, but the UH-1Y or S-70i would likely be procured to cut into the old Puma and/or Huey fleet. The UH-1Y or S-70i (if configured with a self-protection suite and armaments) would be for SOF operations in addition to the utility role, but not as a stand-alone procurement for SOF specifically.

Another note. For whatever reason, the MoDP decided to express interest in Romanian-built Pumas, but that production line is dead. Instead, Airbus will be reviving it to produce the H215 Super Puma, which is a direct Mi-17/171 competitor. Airbus said it is aiming to push the H215 price point to as close to the Mi-17 as possible. Another rench.

In any case, the utility transport helicopter is seeing a glut of options. It seems most manufacturers have decided to invest in modernizing existing designs instead of going clean-sheet. The Leonardo AW149, NHIndustries NH90, and Sikorsky S-92 are the big exceptions, but it's the S-70i, H215, AW139, etc that are attracting attention.