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Meliodas

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Shelling at LOC is a regular affair. Can anybody shed light on what facilities are available for civilians and Millitary personnel living in the area from Pakistani side.

Also how does our current artallery compare to recent announcement of improvement in bofors from Indian side.
 
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155mm howitzer is not used on LOC from the Indian side - at least not in the Poonch-Rajouri range... it's range goes up to 36/42 kilometers - it was only used in Kargil times, but in normal times, the firing remains on border areas, where smaller artillery units are used as there is no need to penetrate deep in the enemy area. Mostly it is LMG fire and mortar only limited use. I speak about this from personal experience.

I used to live very close to the LOC on the Indian side and both sides can see through each other sides pretty easily on our border - unfortunately, both sides do not have big infrastructure in case of escalations and at most people are asked to go to schools/other admin buildings or community buildings away from the line of fire in extreme cases. I have never heard of a school or a temple or masjid or gurudwara being hit on either side on our border. But even in 1971 or 1999, our families were never evacuated, and civilians help both sides to carry heavy ammo up the mountains as the army mules can't climb those mountains plus they are too exposed.
 
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155mm howitzer is not used on LOC from the Indian side - at least not in the Poonch-Rajouri range... it's range goes up to 36/42 kilometers - it was only used in Kargil times, but in normal times, the firing remains on border areas, where smaller artillery units are used as there is no need to penetrate deep in the enemy area. Mostly it is LMG fire and mortar only limited use. I speak about this from personal experience.

I used to live very close to the LOC on the Indian side and both sides can see through each other sides pretty easily on our border - unfortunately, both sides do not have big infrastructure in case of escalations and at most people are asked to go to schools/other admin buildings or community buildings away from the line of fire in extreme cases. I have never heard of a school or a temple or masjid or gurudwara being hit on either side on our border. But even in 1971 or 1999, our families were never evacuated, and civilians help both sides to carry heavy ammo up the mountains as the army mules can't climb those mountains plus they are too exposed.
recently indian army has deliberatly targeted civilian population on Pakistani side as they believed that after it will deter pakistan to support Kashmiris and also deter them to send infiltrators across border.
 
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recently indian army has deliberatly targeted civilian population on Pakistani side as they believed that after it will deter pakistan to support Kashmiris and also deter them to send infiltrators across border.
Wrong! They have been doing this from 1947.

Shelling at LOC is a regular affair. Can anybody shed light on what facilities are available for civilians and Millitary personnel living in the area from Pakistani side.

Also how does our current artallery compare to recent announcement of improvement in bofors from Indian side.
@Signalian Can you answer this?

Thanks
 
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recently indian army has deliberatly targeted civilian population on Pakistani side as they believed that after it will deter pakistan to support Kashmiris and also deter them to send infiltrators across border.
Sure. That claim and counter claim has been going on since always. There have always been civilian losses on both sides, but directed civilian attacks haven't happened. Otherwise, IA firing on the kotli/Mandhol side from Krishna Ghati or PA firing on poonch city from Haji pir side would be like counting beans - That easy - the areas are that exposed with very clear high posts in control of both sides.

Nevertheless, my response does still remain that both sides simply don't have infrastructure to safeguard civilians - in worst cases, the administration just uses schools or admin buildings or community/religious centers and that also happens rarely.
 
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So
155mm howitzer is not used on LOC from the Indian side - at least not in the Poonch-Rajouri range... it's range goes up to 36/42 kilometers - it was only used in Kargil times, but in normal times, the firing remains on border areas, where smaller artillery units are used as there is no need to penetrate deep in the enemy area. Mostly it is LMG fire and mortar only limited use. I speak about this from personal experience.

I used to live very close to the LOC on the Indian side and both sides can see through each other sides pretty easily on our border - unfortunately, both sides do not have big infrastructure in case of escalations and at most people are asked to go to schools/other admin buildings or community buildings away from the line of fire in extreme cases. I have never heard of a school or a temple or masjid or gurudwara being hit on either side on our border. But even in 1971 or 1999, our families were never evacuated, and civilians help both sides to carry heavy ammo up the mountains as the army mules can't climb those mountains plus they are too exposed.
So no bunkers?
 
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So

So no bunkers?

Have never seen civilian bunkers on our side (Dad does mention that they did dig some up in 71 but for sure did not see them in 1999) and haven't see much digging for civilians on the other side as well. But am not an ex-serviceman, i just belong to that very border and can only share what i have seen growing up.

You have to experience that border to understand how mutually assured destruction it would be, for either side to hit civilians straight. Again, am not saying that civilians don't get hurt. They do and on both sides and unnecessarily so. But on those hills, with a mortar and RPGs on non standard ground, you can't assure a secure projectile. Just can't.

Don't know how to attach maps, else would actually show you on google earth what I am trying to express.
 
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Shelling at LOC is a regular affair. Can anybody shed light on what facilities are available for civilians and Millitary personnel living in the area from Pakistani side.

Also how does our current artallery compare to recent announcement of improvement in bofors from Indian side.
PA has 122 mm and 105 mm artillery deployed along LOC, while at some places 130 mm is deployed due to longer range. 122mm is a howitzer, which has high trajectory and a steep angle of descent. 130mm is a field gun and doesn't achieve angles such as howitzer, but has longer range. Most effective is mortar. Line of sight weapons are ATGM's like Green Arrow and Sniper rifles, sometimes LMG's. There is also RR Gun deployed, SPG-9, which is 73 mm and packs a good punch using Armor piercing rounds.

To give a comparison of calibers of weapons used:
1. Type-59-1 is 130mm
2. Type-54/D-30 is 122mm
3. Sniper rifle is 12.7 mm (roughly)
4. Green Arrow is 120 mm
5. Mortars are 81mm and sometimes heavier like 120mm. There is a 61mm variant but its not that effective.
7. There is also report of use of AAA guns of different calibres (35mm, 37mm, 40mm, 57mm) by both sides.
8. M-101 is 105mm

Mortar can attack enemy taking cover behind the mountain side, as you see in the picture.

howitzer mortar.gif


Indian 155 mm Bofors have been on LOC since a long time. Its not always the range which counts, as shown in the picture. Angle is important for effectiveness also. Bofors is an excellent weapon. It has good range and caliber. But LOC is not about artillery vs artillery, its more of using a variety of weapons to cause maximum damage. The 122 mm used by PA has shown good results on LOC as well as on Afghan border. D-30 swivels conveniently on its base to change azimuth and elevation rapidly, instead of shifting the whole howitzer. Its range is decent but accuracy is excellent. Type 54-1 can almost reach the elevation angle of D-30. The elevation of D-30 and Indian Bofors 155mm are same, range is also close. Type-54 range is lesser than both. M-101 is another excellent pack howitzer, which can be carried in pieces by mules, its range is less but it can be taken to places where otherwise only mortars can go. It can be deployed to on mountain peaks to increase range and supports mortar fire. It is mostly deployed on the north-west belt of LOC. The ammunition round is smaller than bigger 122mm and 130mm so lighter in weight( 2KG less than 122mm, 10 KG less than 130mm). The weight issue matters because not all places are accessible are vehicle and soldiers either carry rounds themselves or on mules. All in all, artillery is not always used as the impression of "shelling" is given on media. Both India and Pakistan cannot expend Artillery rounds day and night. In case of full fledged war, ammunition is granted to front lines with more generosity. The use of light weapons is more frequent. ATGM is light, easy to carry and has almost same caliber as artillery gun, so proved to be a very effective weapon. Drawback is that, it needs LOS, unlike artillery. SPG-9 has a fast rate of fire and is light to carry and easy to operate. Its AP round can make a mess of hardened bunkers, there are reports an AP round of SPG-9 destroyed a MBT (probably T-64) in 1990. So the variety of weaponry such as in-direct attack (artillery, mortar) and LOS attack (ATGM, RR, Sniper, LMG etc) from different angles like top attack from artillery and horizontal axis fire from other weapons, opens up a lot of option for decimating enemy.

When one side starts targeting the other side through artillery, then firing starts from both sides. Pakistan Army targets enemy military positions always, and because Indian bunkers are more in number, their troop strength is more, their movement is much more and their depots and other facilities are more in number, so Pakistan Army gets a lot of targets to fire at. Pakistani deployment is a bit different, in front of Indian Battalion (800 troops), there is usually a Pakistani company or two (150-300 troops) deployed. The concept was that wherever the Indians set up a bunker, Pakistanis put 1 bunker at least opposite to Indian bunkers to keep an eye on Indian movement. This was done decades ago, and slowly the strength of troops increased on both sides. Now when India starts firing, they don't discriminate between Pakistani troops and civilians, they target anybody in sight. Pakistan restrains from targeting civilians because not only does Pakistan Military know that there are muslim civilians on other side of LOC, but also because of ethics and morals. The minor reasons are; its better to spent ammunition effectively on enemy military positions effectively and the variety of offered military targets are spread everywhere (since IA troop deployment is more than PA).

There was a time long ago when the formation commander/OC (captain or major) would ask Bat HQ/ Bde HQ for permission to fire back at the enemy when Indians targeted Pakistani positions. But now the standing orders mostly are to retaliate back with fire as soon as Indians start firing, otherwise Indians get frustrated by not doing enough damage to Pakistani troops positions and start to target civilians then. When Pakistani troops start firing then Indians try to target those positions which show muzzle flashes or from where expected fire is coming. This is one way Pakistani troops keep Pakistani civilians safe by attracting enemy fire towards themselves. When Pakistani troops make a kill on Indian side, the direct fire (LOS weapons and mortar) from that sector stops for some time and then Indian Artillery fire is directed on Pakistani troops. Pakistani troops take cover and ask fire for effect on Indian positions. The firing frequency is matched on both sides, 15-20 rounds per minute from Indian artillery is matched with 15-20 or more rounds per minute from Pakistani Artillery. When its seen that enemy firing intensity is decreasing, then own firing intensity decreases also and finally firing stops from both sides. When Indians start shelling civilian positions, then intensity of fire from Pakistani troops and artillery goes to full intensity for maximum impact, targeting all enemy positions and that is when most Indian kills are made by Pakistani troops since not only those positions are targeted which are firing but also any targets of opportunity at that time, such as depots/Kotes(where formation weapons are kept), roads showing enemy military convoy movement, sentry positions, towers etc. Its a full on firing show at that time.

There are bunkers on both sides, but due to advancement in ordinance such as GPS guided projectiles, High explosive shells, use of missiles which have high penetration capacity and use of AP rounds by RR gun...damage is done on both sides. There are dug outs and trenches running between different positions, trenches as high as a person and narrow enough so the enemy artillery round doesn't fall inside them and kill everyone taking cover. These are used for movement, evacuate wounded, passing messages/documents/files through DR's (dispatch runners), reinforcing a position etc. Not all bunkers are made with in sight of enemy, just one or two, other are concealed positions of trenches and bunkers, which are very well camouflaged, on both sides. Bunkers can withstand a lot of beating by enemy fire and can be repaired during lull in the fire. Troops use an easy method to cover concrete and hardened bunkers by sand bags, to save actual damage to bunkers during firing. Sand bags are cheap and disposable, requiring soil to fill up. Then a net is put over them, covered with leaves and twigs.

Population on both sides have seen this conflict since decades so they are somewhat used to firing and take protective measures when required, but they are civilians after all and can get caught up in fire in their daily lives. Sometimes they are asked to leave their homes before an escalation is sensed through intel reports, other times local masjids use loud speakers to warn them through Ranger/NG troops on duty or at some places alarm can be sounded. There are very very few areas with basements for cover at muster places, though this should be increased. Population either gathers at mosques, schools, or government buildings for cover. The system is effective but we are talking about civilians; they just cannot get up and run, although they are urged to do that to save their lives. Some are working in field and farms, not everybody is at home, women folk with children are found working outside homes also. Pakistani Military is active in warning civilians and opens medical camps when enemy starts firing.
 
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PA has 122 mm and 105 mm artillery deployed along LOC, while at some places 130 mm is deployed due to longer range. 122mm is a howitzer, which has high trajectory and a steep angle of descent. 130mm is a field gun and doesn't achieve angles such as howitzer, but has longer range. Most effective is mortar. Line of sight weapons are ATGM's like Green Arrow and Sniper rifles, sometimes LMG's. There is also RR Gun deployed, SPG-9, which is 73 mm and packs a good punch using Armor piercing rounds.

To give a comparison of calibers of weapons used:
1. Type-59-1 is 130mm
2. Type-54/D-30 is 122mm
3. Sniper rifle is 12.7 mm (roughly)
4. Green Arrow is 120 mm
5. Mortars are 81mm and sometimes heavier like 120mm. There is a 61mm variant but its not that effective.
7. There is also report of use of AAA guns of different calibres (35mm, 37mm, 40mm, 57mm) by both sides.
8. M-101 is 105mm

Mortar can attack enemy taking cover behind the mountain side, as you see in the picture.

View attachment 548880

Indian 155 mm Bofors have been on LOC since a long time. Its not always the range which counts, as shown in the picture. Angle is important for effectiveness also. Bofors is an excellent weapon. It has good range and caliber. But LOC is not about artillery vs artillery, its more of using a variety of weapons to cause maximum damage. The 122 mm used by PA has shown good results on LOC as well as on Afghan border. D-30 swivels conveniently on its base to change azimuth and elevation rapidly, instead of shifting the whole howitzer. Its range is decent but accuracy is excellent. Type 54-1 can almost reach the elevation angle of D-30. The elevation of D-30 and Indian Bofors 155mm are same, range is also close. Type-54 range is lesser than both. M-101 is another excellent pack howitzer, which can be carried in pieces by mules, its range is less but it can be taken to places where otherwise only mortars can go. It can be deployed to on mountain peaks to increase range and supports mortar fire. It is mostly deployed on the north-west belt of LOC. The ammunition round is smaller than bigger 122mm and 130mm so lighter in weight( 2KG less than 122mm, 10 KG less than 130mm). The weight issue matters because not all places are accessible are vehicle and soldiers either carry rounds themselves or on mules. All in all, artillery is not always used as the impression of "shelling" is given on media. Both India and Pakistan cannot expend Artillery rounds day and night. In case of full fledged war, ammunition is granted to front lines with more generosity. The use of light weapons is more frequent. ATGM is light, easy to carry and has almost same caliber as artillery gun, so proved to be a very effective weapon. Drawback is that, it needs LOS, unlike artillery. SPG-9 has a fast rate of fire and is light to carry and easy to operate. Its AP round can make a mess of hardened bunkers, there are reports an AP round of SPG-9 destroyed a MBT (probably T-64) in 1990. So the variety of weaponry such as in-direct attack (artillery, mortar) and LOS attack (ATGM, RR, Sniper, LMG etc) from different angles like top attack from artillery and horizontal axis fire from other weapons, opens up a lot of option for decimating enemy.

When one side starts targeting the other side through artillery, then firing starts from both sides. Pakistan Army targets enemy military positions always, and because Indian bunkers are more in number, their troop strength is more, their movement is much more and their depots and other facilities are more in number, so Pakistan Army gets a lot of targets to fire at. Pakistani deployment is a bit different, in front of Indian Battalion (800 troops), there is usually a Pakistani company or two (150-300 troops) deployed. The concept was that wherever the Indians set up a bunker, Pakistanis put 1 bunker at least opposite to Indian bunkers to keep an eye on Indian movement. This was done decades ago, and slowly the strength of troops increased on both sides. Now when India starts firing, they don't discriminate between Pakistani troops and civilians, they target anybody in sight. Pakistan restrains from targeting civilians because not only does Pakistan Military know that there are muslim civilians on other side of LOC, but also because of ethics and morals. The minor reasons are; its better to spent ammunition effectively on enemy military positions effectively and the variety of offered military targets are spread everywhere (since IA troop deployment is more than PA).

There was a time long ago when the formation commander/OC (captain or major) would ask Bat HQ/ Bde HQ for permission to fire back at the enemy when Indians targeted Pakistani positions. But now the standing orders mostly are to retaliate back with fire as soon as Indians start firing, otherwise Indians get frustrated by not doing enough damage to Pakistani troops positions and start to target civilians then. When Pakistani troops start firing then Indians try to target those positions which show muzzle flashes or from where expected fire is coming. This is one way Pakistani troops keep Pakistani civilians safe by attracting enemy fire towards themselves. When Pakistani troops make a kill on Indian side, the direct fire (LOS weapons and mortar) from that sector stops for some time and then Indian Artillery fire is directed on Pakistani troops. Pakistani troops take cover and ask fire for effect on Indian positions. The firing frequency is matched on both sides, 15-20 rounds per minute from Indian artillery is matched with 15-20 or more rounds per minute from Pakistani Artillery. When its seen that enemy firing intensity is decreasing, then own firing intensity decreases also and finally firing stops from both sides. When Indians start shelling civilian positions, then intensity of fire from Pakistani troops and artillery goes to full intensity for maximum impact, targeting all enemy positions and that is when most Indian kills are made by Pakistani troops since not only those positions are targeted which are firing but also any targets of opportunity at that time, such as depots/Kotes(where formation weapons are kept), roads showing enemy military convoy movement, sentry positions, towers etc. Its a full on firing show at that time.

There are bunkers on both sides, but due to advancement in ordinance such as GPS guided projectiles, High explosive shells, use of missiles which have high penetration capacity and use of AP rounds by RR gun...damage is done on both sides. There are dug outs and trenches running between different positions, trenches as high as a person and narrow enough so the enemy artillery round doesn't fall inside them and kill everyone taking cover. These are used for movement, evacuate wounded, passing messages/documents/files through DR's (dispatch runners), reinforcing a position etc. Not all bunkers are made with in sight of enemy, just one or two, other are concealed positions of trenches and bunkers, which are very well camouflaged, on both sides. Bunkers can withstand a lot of beating by enemy fire and can be repaired during lull in the fire. Troops use an easy method to cover concrete and hardened bunkers by sand bags, to save actual damage to bunkers during firing. Sand bags are cheap and disposable, requiring soil to fill up. Then a net is put over them, covered with leaves and twigs.

Population on both sides have seen this conflict since decades so they are somewhat used to firing and take protective measures when required, but they are civilians after all and can get caught up in fire in their daily lives. Sometimes they are asked to leave their homes before an escalation is sensed through intel reports, other times local masjids use loud speakers to warn them through Ranger/NG troops on duty or at some places alarm can be sounded. There are very very few areas with basements for cover at muster places, though this should be increased. Population either gathers at mosques, schools, or government buildings for cover. The system is effective but we are talking about civilians; they just cannot get up and run, although they are urged to do that to save their lives. Some are working in field and farms, not everybody is at home, women folk with children are found working outside homes also. Pakistani Military is active in warning civilians and opens medical camps when enemy starts firing.

Thanks for such a detailed response.
Will there be any benefit if community bunkers are created at muhallah or street level. Although with years of living in the area people will have gained the skills of how to save themselves in such occasions, but we should conduct trainings to boost their safety ability.
 
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Thanks for such a detailed response.
Will there be any benefit if community bunkers are created at muhallah or street level. Although with years of living in the area people will have gained the skills of how to save themselves in such occasions, but we should conduct trainings to boost their safety ability.
Yes i agree, all sorts of hardened emergency shelters should be made. Bunkers, basements, street shelters etc. They should have air-conditioning/heating systems, a telephone connection, dry toilets, a spare exit, water tanks, a first aid kit, cold and dry food with long expiry, clothing and bedding.
 
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Sure. That claim and counter claim has been going on since always. There have always been civilian losses on both sides, but directed civilian attacks haven't happened. Otherwise, IA firing on the kotli/Mandhol side from Krishna Ghati or PA firing on poonch city from Haji pir side would be like counting beans - That easy - the areas are that exposed with very clear high posts in control of both sides.

Nevertheless, my response does still remain that both sides simply don't have infrastructure to safeguard civilians - in worst cases, the administration just uses schools or admin buildings or community/religious centers and that also happens rarely.
with all due respect........ you are wrong ....... i know no one would admit their military doing such things..... and initially indian army was not like this ........... however, ever since the Indian establishment have been taking "suggestions" from israelis (which they publically admit) they have been doing such stuff ........... this increased after modi and in fact first such incident happened after modi won when indian army shot at a school bus in pakistani side of kashmir ............ since then civilian population is directly targeted ......... one other thing to note is that all this came after modi and ajit doval ...... who publically have compared indo-pak situation to israel-palestinian .....................

the rest is upto to our beliefs
 
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with all due respect........ you are wrong ....... i know no one would admit their military doing such things..... and initially indian army was not like this ........... however, ever since the Indian establishment have been taking "suggestions" from israelis (which they publically admit) they have been doing such stuff ........... this increased after modi and in fact first such incident happened after modi won when indian army shot at a school bus in pakistani side of kashmir ............ since then civilian population is directly targeted ......... one other thing to note is that all this came after modi and ajit doval ...... who publically have compared indo-pak situation to israel-palestinian .....................

the rest is upto to our beliefs
Ebrahym, you think with civilian population being targeted the causalities will be where they are?

Modi does not decide on how the firing goes - the GOC of the Div sitting in Rajouri and the brigade commander makes that call. No doubt that Doval has been extremely hawkish in his approach and that has its pros and cons.

Signallian has written a good note above, except the usual propaganda that Indian troops target civilians and pakistani troops don't do that because of ethics and morals. You can keep believing that one sided view. I have lost family members in those cross fires and i know that claim to be untrue. But at the same time i also believe that if either IA or PA want to hit the civilians, the casualties will be much more than what you have seen so far.
 
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Ebrahym, you think with civilian population being targeted the causalities will be where they are?

Modi does not decide on how the firing goes - the GOC of the Div sitting in Rajouri and the brigade commander makes that call. No doubt that Doval has been extremely hawkish in his approach and that has its pros and cons.

Signallian has written a good note above, except the usual propaganda that Indian troops target civilians and pakistani troops don't do that because of ethics and morals. You can keep believing that one sided view. I have lost family members in those cross fires and i know that claim to be untrue. But at the same time i also believe that if either IA or PA want to hit the civilians, the casualties will be much more than what you have seen so far.
With all due respect ...........
The Indian policies under the current governments have radically changed.
while what you describe "was" the truth, the new reality is this.
What i am describing is the new shift in Indian policy.
Which is to inflict maximum damage on Pakistan and what Pakistan considers as "ours", including hurriyet and JKLF leadership. Their intent is to "deter" Pakistan.
and as seen by new policies of Ajit doval. morality is a luxury India won't spare.

In short I am describing the shift in India's policy. Which is to deter Pakistan from "supporting" Kashmiris.
 
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With all due respect ...........
The Indian policies under the current governments have radically changed.
while what you describe "was" the truth, the new reality is this.
What i am describing is the new shift in Indian policy.
Which is to inflict maximum damage on Pakistan and what Pakistan considers as "ours", including hurriyet and JKLF leadership. Their intent is to "deter" Pakistan.
and as seen by new policies of Ajit doval. morality is a luxury India won't spare.

In short I am describing the shift in India's policy. Which is to deter Pakistan from "supporting" Kashmiris.

You can call those separatists as yours or anyone else - that won't make a difference. Indeed. Am from J&K and proud to call myself Indian. Am actually glad that someone is tackling those guys finally. That is a clear change in policy, I totally agree with you.

But that was not the point of this thread.

And a discussion on Kashmir, I will have to wait some as I am not senior enough to post in Kashmir threads.
 
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