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Let us become ¬ proudly ¬ Bayghairat

you should have read what i posted before re posting the last paragrapgh.

the problem is HOW! he did not explain that! he just said forget your fake ghaiyrat and let us benefit from the fruit of modernity

he just said let us give up ghairyat and become JAPAN or GERMANY! how, he has no idea that people in japan and Germany are still patriotic to their nation and work for the betterment of their nation. Paksitanis on the other hand are undecided if they should even be a nation or different states or different cities (examples balochistan freedom karachi freedom movement or sindhudesh)!

The solutions come from within a community or country. When breeding like flies to support agricultural lands becomes the norm even in cities, it puts all plans out of the window. Where leaders of a community find it easier to steal, coerce and beg rather than earn, where exactly do you think they learned this from? Sure as hell wasnt their mothers bellies. It was their society. Your father and mine are involved in what is happening today. Wake the hell up or continue sleeping, just dont moan about drones and ghairat. We never inherited any ghairat from our lazy fore fathers who did not know how to raise children.
 
No assumptions or offence here its a scenario new for me too we are discussing it here he is saying hell with the honour of military """he has mentioned an example of PA officers he met when they approached him in 80's regarding pak nuclear programe in their honor those men are quoted here saying that they are willing to smoke an entire city to save face /honour or ego... which in retaliation is going to cost us the same , the point is eik wardi walay ulo kay pathay chowkidar ki ego / honour or to save his face why should an entire country of hundreds of million should face the threat of nuclear or any other kind of war !!?? Modern times its applicable on ghaday and ghoray kay herds not on humans
Actually you're the one misunderstanding it. He said:
After some reflection one officer spoke up: “Professor,” he assured me, “they shall be used only defensively if at all, and only if the Pakistan Army faces defeat. We cannot allow ourselves to be dishonoured.”
The honourable thing in it was the fact that they would not be the first to use it, not that they would use it as a last resort
 
.....

he just said let us give up ghairyat and become JAPAN or GERMANY! how, he has no idea that people in japan and Germany are still patriotic to their nation and work for the betterment of their nation. Paksitanis on the other hand are undecided if they should even be a nation or different states or different cities (examples balochistan freedom karachi freedom movement or sindhudesh)!

Ice man dear. He is saying the same thing that we should not put on false ghairat, and instead be like Japan/Germany where people have the "right kind of ghairat".

Balochi or Karachi separatism is there for sure, but Europeans and I mean rich European countries are not immune to this.

Canada has Quebec issue, Spain's rebel groups were active for decades and only laid their arms down not too long ago. Americans fought major civil war after 100 years of successful democracy, India has a number of separatists, and so does China.

The idea in the main essay is for Pakistanis to calm down and use their heads instead of their hearts. We ought to be a little less emotional, and a bit more measured.

That's all.

Peace.
 
This is what Pakistan should do to satisfy Hoodbhoy, Pak marine and other of this kind.

1 Give all the nukes, all the cruise and ballistic missiles to USA.
2 Give back GB and AJK to India.
3 Give freedom to Baluchistan so USA can have supply route without any interference from anyone.
4 Invade North Waziristan and then die at the hands of new wave of Suicide attacks.
5 Cut the defense expenditure and practically make PA something like police.
6 And after doing all this since you wouldn't be left with anything to care about promote homosexuality in your country and live a life free of tension.

:shout::hitwall:
 
I’m still proudly ghairatmand


By Maria Waqar
Published: May 13, 2012



This article is in response to Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy’s piece titled “Let us become — proudly — bayghairat” published in this newspaper on May 6. The writer believes that dangerous appeals to honour — an anachronistic concept originating from herding societies — have historically made nations pave the way for their own doom. But modern nations, with beliefs in reason and science, are able to make more practical decisions that ensure their progress and well-being.

It is contradicting that the examples Dr Hoodbhoy gives to justify the dangerous ‘tribal’ notion of honour are of the most modern societies of their times. Nazi Germany was vastly industrialised and urbanised with a very high literacy rate and a thriving civil society. The Germans were no bunch of herders existing in the pre-Newtonian era. In fact, in Nazi Germany, so firm was the faith in science that the system of racial eugenics, designed for justifying the superiority of the Aryan race and achieving racial purity, was promulgated under the garb of ‘scientific truth’. Similarly, Japan was one of the earliest nations to modernise and prior to WWII, had undisputedly become a ‘mass society’ with strongly rooted modern values of individualism, materialism and efficiency.

So, why is it that such modern nations deliberately treaded the path of ruin because of their supposedly ‘backward’ notion of honour? It might be easier for Zaid Hamid and Imran Khan to rouse the gullible ‘traditional’ masses of Pakistan by invoking their ghairat but why did such a strategy work so effectively in the most literate and developed of nations?

Even if we accept Dr Hoodbhoy’s viewpoint, his examples imply that human values won’t suddenly disappear as traditional societies transition into modern ones. Ideas like honour, love, and jealousy reflect the essence of humanity but are often relegated to the domain of sentimentality and irrationality by science. And they will not just be supplanted by rational cost-benefit considerations as we move away from what Dr Hoodbhoy terms tribalism.

Moreover, Dr Hoodbhoy appears to discount the possibility that a distinction between empty talk of sacred norms, like honour, by manipulative politicians and their actual strategic motives can exist. Deducing by his logic, then, the US intervened in Afghanistan and Iraq during the new millennium not for strategic interests but for the sake of bestowing freedom and liberty to the local population. And more than a decade later, we are perfectly aware of the rampant destruction of life and property that American presence has inflicted on both countries — all of which befell, according to Dr Hoodbhoy’s rationale, at the behest of normative considerations.
So, if the nuclear physicist is quick to curse honour for giving nations the pain of war, will he also denounce liberal values of liberty and freedom —‘fruits of the modern world’— for such rampant devastation and death? But alas! In today’s age, when writers often consider modernity an elixir, it’s rather easy to blame traditional notions like honour and religion for causing widespread suffering. Yet, to do the same for liberal values is considered absurd. For the lack of a convincing argument to do otherwise, I will hang onto my ghairat — at least, for now.

Published in The Express Tribune, May 14th, 2012.
 
why are we immune to recession? & are you telling me youth all over the world is focused? situation is pretty similar to the beginning of world war 1! the youth had no aim or motive.

Off-course many are very focused, but the issues is some are focused towards development and some are towards destruction...
 
Off-course many are very focused, but the issues is some are focused towards development and some are towards destruction...

WHAT is your POINT? thanks for stating an obvious fact like SUN RISES EVERYDAy!
 
WHAT is your POINT? thanks for stating an obvious fact like SUN RISES EVERYDAy!

Very true SUN RISES EVERYDAy!


Well my point is you can't genralise and say "youth's all over the world are not focused" - because most of the youths in India will say they see a bright future for them compare to their parents, and today any talented graduates in India will get their job placement on their door steps, and same with china - the youths over there also believe the same, that they see a bright future for China, and this two countries form 40% of the world population!!!

Please watch the below video where you can see how youths of China and India are having high hope for their country with positive mind set....

 
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Very true SUN RISES EVERYDAy!


Well my point is you can't genralise and say "youth's all over the world are not focused" - because most of the youths in India will say they see a bright future for them compare to their parents, and today any talented graduates in India will get their job placement on their door steps, and same with china - the youths over there also believe the same, that they see a bright future for China, and this two countries form 40% of the world population!!!

Please watch the below video where you can see how youths of China and India are having high hope for their country with positive mind set....



both nations have a population of a billion! and youth maybe in cities are positive about the future but i am sure a farm workers son living under maoist rebels might not feel the same. in general the youth all over the world is disgruntled and an example was the UK riots of 2011!

urban cities of china & india are a different story.
 
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both nations have a population of a billion! and youth maybe in cities are positive about the future but i am sure a farm workers son living under maoist rebels might not feel the same. in general the youth all over the world is disgruntled and an example was the UK riots of 2011!

urban cities of china & india are a different story.

Well I am a son of a poor farmer and was able to come out of poverty only because of education, we are hear disusing about the future, because some 30 years back in India education doesn't grantee you a job - you need contacts to get a job, but now the scenario is different and in my case I am just a Diploma in Automobile and got direct job placement as soon as i finished my studies, I have toured India extensively due to the nature of my job and can assure you that only a small portion of India is having the Maoist insurgency, I am not saying every thing is rosy in India, but we have hope for future and have a setup now to lift the next generation out of poverty...
 
Well I am a son of a poor farmer and was able to come out of poverty only because of education, we are hear disusing about the future, because some 30 years back in India education doesn't grantee you a job - you need contacts to get a job, but now the scenario is different and in my case I am just a Diploma in Automobile and got direct job placement as soon as i finished my studies, I have toured India extensively due to the nature of my job and can assure you that only a small portion of India is having the Maoist insurgency, I am not saying every thing is rosy in India, but we have hope for future and have a setup now to lift the next generation out of poverty...

good for you hope your next generation is lifted out of poverty. and so does every generation all over the world.
 

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