LeT: Ready to end Jihad in Kashmir

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Oh, so religious extremism of the worst kind is fine as long as they "cause" they claim to be fightin for is a "legitimate" one?
Do you realize the absurdity of that statement? Do you have any idea how many Kashmiri civilians (that's right, not the Indian troops who you hate, or the "Indian" civilians who don't matter as much) they have killed in roadside bombs and firing on crowds in broad daylight?

Or that radical Islam is being used to turn perfectly normal people into verse-spouting Jehadis?

But all that is fine isn't it, as long as they are fighting for "freedom".
I guess "freedom fighters" get judged differently in your world of jehad.

So long as civilians are not being attacked the groups are fine by me, and are not terrorists by any standard. Some soldiers the Indian army have committed atrocities against non-combatants as well, that does not necessarily make the entire army a terrorist organization. Similarly, the leadership of a militant group may not approve attacks against civilians, but local commanders may - the whole picture has to be looked at.

As a responsible nation, Pakistan is supposed to do her own investigations and prosecute the people involved, like India is doing in the Sadhvi Pragya case and the Col. Purohit case, and not justify their acts as a "Freedom Struggle" or such nonsense or sit smugly demanding "proof".

Even those two have denied their involvement in the blasts - but I guess the GOI isn't saying "Huh - they're "distancing" themselves from the blasts so now its okay since they are freedom fighters".

Gesture of goodwill? More like the Almighty Eyewash.

I really don't know what it will take for Pakistan to stop letting these "non-state actors" flourish on her soil. Maybe when they take over Islamabad will you guys realize it.

We are doing our own investigation, but a lot of the major evidence to convict, the recorded phone calls, the lone alive perpetrator etc. are in Indian hands.

Your 'eyewash' comment is completely unsubstantiated. The Pakistani constitution allows for 3 months preventative detention, these men have been detained under that, the JuD assets have been seized - beyond that the evidence to link them to the Mumbai attacks is with India, and she has refused to share it.

It is India that is performing the 'eye wash' here, and acting irresponsibly and belligerently - the easiest way to get convictions here would be to cooperate and share evidence - India has refused. The only ones to blame here are the GoI.

When will we completely dismantle the Kashmiri groups fighting Indian occupation, peacefully or militarily - when India decides to uphold her commitments on Kashmir, and resolve the dispute.

 

[Flintlock]

So long as civilians are not being attacked the groups are fine by me, and are not terrorists by any standard. Some soldiers the Indian army have committed atrocities against non-combatants as well, that does not necessarily make the entire army a terrorist organization. Similarly, the leadership of a militant group may not approve attacks against civilians, but local commanders may - the whole picture has to be looked at.

Oh please, don't even compare the two - Indian army does not plant bombs in the middle of busy markets, or forcibly abduct teenagers to become fighters in their jehad. They don't open indicriminate fire on the roadside and they don't use civilians as human shields when cornered.

That's the difference between brainwashed jehadis and well-disciplined troops.

The tactics used by the terrorists is not something invented by the local commander. These tactics are meant to terrorize the civilian population and turn them against the government. They are approved by the heads of the organizations.

If you guys haven't realized as yet, that the objective of LeT is not some glorious freedom struggle but simply to grab power and impose their medeival ideas by hook or crook, then you have learnt nothing about terrorism.

We are doing our own investigation, but a lot of the major evidence to convict, the recorded phone calls, the lone alive perpetrator etc. are in Indian hands.

Your 'eyewash' comment is completely unsubstantiated. The Pakistani constitution allows for 3 months preventative detention, these men have been detained under that, the JuD assets have been seized - beyond that the evidence to link them to the Mumbai attacks is with India, and she has refused to share it.

The rest of this para - I've made my views known several times already.

When will we completely dismantle the Kashmiri groups fighting Indian occupation, peacefully or militarily - when India decides to uphold her commitments on Kashmir, and resolve the dispute.

Fine by me. You've admitted to double standards. Jehadi extremism is great for you as long as your own political objectives are being pushed.

But when they start attacking targets within your own country, then it suddenly becomes terrorism.

 

[EagleEyes]

though you are, in an unrelated matter, correct in saying that there is actually one Kashmir. Kashmir imo, is supposed to refer to only the valley which measures approx ~3000sq km, presently with India.

Hence the Indian Occupied Kashmir.

towing your line, there is no greater dishonor for a citizen, when he is arrested by his compatriots for "fighting" for his country (and an arrest under external pressure compounds the dishonor)

There is a fine line. Once you cross that line and kill the innocent people you become nothing more than the Indian Army in Kashmir AKA a partly terrorist organization.

 

[Vinod2070]

I thought after 9/11 and especially after facing the brunt of terror themselves, our good neighbors had become disabused of the notion of "the good terrorist".

Still not perhaps! It would take them some more time to find out this fact. I hope it is not too late by then.

 

[kenchabhai]

Webmaster, I would like to give a few of my thoughts on this issue.

1. India and Pakistan, inspite of having many physical similarities, have antithetical ideologies and philosophies at their core. These differences in our foundations coupled with a few other happenings, has resulted in India and Pakistan becoming not rivals, not competitors but sworn blood enemies.

2. Due to the differences in our founding philosphies, antipathy of our intellects, being fed propaganda, differing accounts of reaity, and “wars”; the feelings of mutual hate, enemity and distrust have ossified. Other Circumstances such as our geographical location, physical and cultural similarities, have forced us to become extremely jingoistic, ignore facts and try to create and highlight petty differences. Most of us will happily deride the other whilst ignoring our own shortcomings.


3. I do not believe that solution of Kashmir will end India-Pakistan enemity. It is a sympton of the deep malaise that plagues us due to our different belief systems. From an Indian Viewpoint creation of Bangladesh, Balochistan insurgency etc is a villifaction of Pakistani ideology and from a Pakistani Viewpoint Kashmir insurgency, Naxal insurgency etc. is a villification of Indian ideology. Kashmir has gained so much attention simply because it is visible, it exists, it is quantifiable, it is definable and winning it will be the ultimate vindication of one’s ideology. Not surprisingly both nations will stake all to win it, and losing it/givin up would mean ideological hara-kiri.

4. With history as a testament, the most heinous acts, by mankind, can be justified, committed, and popularly accepted by invoking God, religion, and other lofty divine ideals. Pakistan in an endeavour to win Kashmir and deal a blow to India, propped up organizations to fight a “jihad/holy war” against the “Kaffir/Indian/Hindu occupation” of Kashmiris. This made sense because of Kashmiris had a genuine grouse against Indian government and were ripe pickings for exploitation, Indian army was clueless in COIN, Indian govt was running around headless at the time and Pakistani mujahideen were idle post- soviet-afghan war and could be diverted there. It was an easy task to achieve as, Zia’s rule had Islamicised Pak society to an extent as well and Pakistan was US’s blue eyed boy.

5. Now coming to the point of justification of LeT’s actions, I am not a muslim or an Islamic scholar hence I will try to go on a different tangent here.

6. Congress (INC) for eg propped up Bhindranwale to counter Akali Dal, Shiv Sena to counter communist trade unions etc for short term political benefits and till today is reaping the punishments of such actions. CIA propped up Afghan Mujahideen, Saddam Hussein for short sighted goals, and is on the verge of going bankrupt in remedying these faults . Pakistan similarly propped up Taliban, radicals etc and look at what is happening in Pakistan because of this.

7. Now, even professional organizations and individuals such as armed forces, inteligence agencies under tough government laws, international laws, media scrutiny and various other checks and balances also renegade. Soldiers belonging to some of the worlds most disciplined and professional organizations such as US army have been arrested and persecuted for committing the most diabolical acts.

8. Tying point 6 & 7 together, I think Pakistan can learn from its own and others experiences of supporting such organizations as LeT. I fail to see the benefit of harbouring an organization full of youth, who are possibly uneducated, highly brainwashed/motivated, professionaly trained in military grade weapons; and who are willing, for their “religious” beliefs, to cross some of the most punishing (and beautiful) terrain known to man, to kill individuals opposed to their beliefs, to fight one of the largest armed forces known to man, and in return be assured of a certain death. Further, I feel such organizations ought not to exist as per the lofty ideals enshrined in the founding ideology of Pakistan, as per my limited understanding of Islamic ideals, and esp constitutionally in a country which is a major player in WoT.

9. Following constitution and laws of the nation is indeed commendable but at some point exceptions have to be made in interest of the nation. Pakistani leaders have been guilty of subverting the constitution, laws and courts of Pakistan for their own selfish motives. what has suddenly made Mr. 10%, Mr. Sharif, Gen. Kiyani or Justice Chaudhary venerable upholder of Pakistani constitution and how have they become so highly clueless wrt activites of LeT ? (surprisingly Zardari has not amended the constitution nor appointed Mushy appointed judges). The fact that Pakistani leadership was arm-twisted to act against such organizations, also speaks of their dangers. A conclusion that I draw from this is that these organizations are very powerful, Pakistani leadership is very weak, Pakistanis are extremely jingoistic (viz a viz India) and adherence to certain ideologies(the one which propped anti-govt protest during lal masjid siege) is obfuscating what to me is obvious and inevitable. Indeed Pakistan for its own benefit, IMO, should be willing to in the interest of long term benefit and short term loss persecute organizations which have the potential to bite them in the backside in the future.

10. Webmaster, Tales of bravery, honour, sacrifice and heroism, as I have been taught, centre around defending and laying down one’s life for a cause; and not in crossing over,hiding in shadows and killing civilians or unprepared soldiers, for a cause one is clueless about.
"There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no causes that I am prepared to kill for." – Gandhi

TO SUM UP
“People have murdered each other, in massive wars and guerilla actions, for many centuries, and still murder each other in the present, over Ideologies and Religions which, stated as propositions, appear neither true nor false to modern logicians -- meaningless propositions that look meaningful to the linguistically naive.” - Robert Anton Wilson

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Kashmir has gained so much attention simply because it is visible, it exists, it is quantifiable, it is definable and winning it will be the ultimate vindication of one’s ideology. Not surprisingly both nations will stake all to win it, and losing it/givin up would mean ideological hara-kiri.

You are attributing to the Kashmir dispute dynamics that have been conjured up, primarily by the Indian jingoist and Hindutva crowd, and by some Islamists in Pakistan.

The reality is that Kashmir is none of that, it is not some 'struggle for validating ideology' - it is plain and simple a territorial dispute. It has been accepted as a territorial dispute by India, Pakistan and the international community several times via the UNSc resolutions. The solutions to the territorial dispute have been outlined by the international community, the instrument of partition, and have been accepted by India and Pakistan.

This should have been an open and shut case, had it not been for the Nehru's perfidious designs and arrogance. It is now clear that he chose to unilaterally violate every single commitment and agreement made by India and shut the door to a peaceful resolution of the dispute.

All this rubbish about 'vindication of ideology' is pushed by extremists on both sides, especially Indians, to distract form the actual issue, and make the dispute even more intractable (to maintain the status quo) and hide India's responsibility in not resolving the dispute, by assigning to it these 'life or death' interpretations.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Oh please, don't even compare the two - Indian army does not plant bombs in the middle of busy markets, or forcibly abduct teenagers to become fighters in their jehad. They don't open indicriminate fire on the roadside and they don't use civilians as human shields when cornered.

That's the difference between brainwashed jehadis and well-disciplined troops.

Collateral damage and atrocities by Indian troops in Kahsmir have been widely established by international organizations. Collateral damage can occur when militant groups plant a roadside bomb to attack an Indian convoy or patrol.

Some, not all, militant groups do deliberately target civillians to terrorize them, do deliberately plant bombs in public places to kill civlians, and do abduct people. For them I have no sympathy or support.

But there are many other groups who focus solely on fighting the Indian occupation, who have willing recruits from both IOC and AK, and who limit their attacks on Indian SF's. Those groups are not by any means terrorists, and while Pakistan should not physically support them, or assist them in crossing the LoC, they should not be dismantled either. They should be given our moral support, and allowed to raise funds privately, and encouraged to shift their movement to a political one - but it should be voluntary.

The tactics used by the terrorists is not something invented by the local commander. These tactics are meant to terrorize the civilian population and turn them against the government. They are approved by the heads of the organizations.

If you guys haven't realized as yet, that the objective of LeT is not some glorious freedom struggle but simply to grab power and impose their medeival ideas by hook or crook, then you have learnt nothing about terrorism.

By that same logic the atrocities committed by Indian troops aren't 'rogue' soldiers or commanders either, but a symptom of an entire institutions, the Indian Army, possessing a diseased and 'terrorist' mindset.

There are some militant groups that support attacks against civillians from the top down. There are others that do not, but may have local commanders who take things into their own hands. Then there are others who have maintained discipline within their ranks to where there is a tremendous amount of control over their cadres.

Nothing is certain however, even in organizations as disciplined as the IA and PA we have seen that discipline collapse under pressure and atrocities take place - the same applies to militant organizations, even if they do not support attacks against civilians.

The rest of this para - I've made my views known several times already.

Yes, and I have pointed out how Pakistan has been quite reasonable in cooperating and acting against the suspects, despite the belligerence, war mongering and lack of cooperation from India

Fine by me. You've admitted to double standards. Jehadi extremism is great for you as long as your own political objectives are being pushed.

But when they start attacking targets within your own country, then it suddenly becomes terrorism.

Do not distort my view please. So long as India refuses to resolve the Kashmir dispute, as she has agreed to several times under the UNSC resolutions, the territory is occupied and since we claim that territory and we support the people of that territory, we shoudl morally and politically support the groups fighting Indian SF's, and not attacking civilians.

Terrorism, attacks against civilians or the State, where the State exercises legitimate power and sovereignty, I do not endorse. But by virtue of the disputed status of Kashmir, as accepted in the UN, by India as well, it is not territory where India exercise either legitimate power or sovereignty, so I support the Freedom Fighters who struggle politically and non-politically against the occupation, and do not attack civilians as a matter of policy.

 

[Flintlock]

Good luck differenciating between "good jehadis" and "bad jehadis".

I won't bother to go on about how absurd it is to call a bunch of religious fanatics disciplined. They have none, by definition.

If and when they turn against the Pakistani state (and they will - take my word for it), just hope that they are not nearly as disciplined as you are making them out to be.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Good luck differenciating between "good jehadis" and "bad jehadis".

I won't bother to go on about how absurd it is to call a bunch of religious fanatics disciplined. They have none, by definition.

If and when they turn against the Pakistani state (and they will - take my word for it), just hope that they are not nearly as disciplined as you are making them out to be.

You can keep calling them all 'religious fanatics' - they are not, though some may be. Its just more dissembling and obfuscation from India and Indians to hitch a ride on the GWoT train.

Fighting an occupation is justified, the international community accepts this right- and India herself confirmed her occupation by agreeing to the UNSC resolutions that ruled Kashmir disputed and called for its resolution by resort to the fairest and most basic means - allowing the people of the territory to determine their final status.

Alas, India has proved to be far from 'fair and decent' since then - greedy, irresponsible and a regional thug is more accurate. The arguments made by Indians here in an attempt to justify India walking out of her agreements and commitments says it all

- for the sake of 'One billion Indians' -

Translation: Because I get rich/advantages, I do not mind committing an illegal act and suppressing others. After all, my family is bigger so why shouldn't I occupy and usurp that other family and their possessions for the sake of my own 'bigger family'.

P.S: When they turn on the Pakistani state - that is they challenge the writ of the state where the state exercises legitimate power and sovereignty, they will be dealt with, as are the Taliban.

 

[dabong1]

Every time pressure is put on the GOP to act, a few guys get put into house arrest and released some time later. Its now common knowledge that these guys are treated like national assets by the Pakistani administration - I fail to see why you guys need to even deny it any longer.,

Its worked the last few times ahs it not..

Oh and haha - yes, now that LeT is pretending to be a "peaceful" organization,

LeT is a "peaceful" organization"....for the moment

 

[Vinod2070]

You can keep calling them all 'religious fanatics' - they are not, though some may be. Its just more dissembling and obfuscation from India and Indians to hitch a ride on the GWoT train.

Fighting an occupation is justified, the international community accepts this right- and India herself confirmed her occupation by agreeing to the UNSC resolutions that ruled Kashmir disputed and called for its resolution by resort to the fairest and most basic means - allowing the people of the territory to determine their final status.

Alas, India has proved to be far from 'fair and decent' since then - greedy, irresponsible and a regional thug is more accurate. The arguments made by Indians here in an attempt to justify India walking out of her agreements and commitments says it all

- for the sake of 'One billion Indians' -

Translation: Because I get rich/advantages, I do not mind committing an illegal act and suppressing others. After all, my family is bigger so why shouldn't I occupy and usurp that other family and their possessions for the sake of my own 'bigger family'.

P.S: When they turn on the Pakistani state - that is they challenge the writ of the state where the state exercises legitimate power and sovereignty, they will be dealt with, as are the Taliban.

I would just like to say that the assumption of the high moral ground on your (or Pakistan's) part is not supported by the facts on the ground!

We have gone through the reasons several times.

 

[Flintlock]

P.S: When they turn on the Pakistani state - that is they challenge the writ of the state where the state exercises legitimate power and sovereignty, they will be dealt with, as are the Taliban.

Good luck fighting insugencies on both fronts.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I would just like to say that the assumption of the high moral ground on your (or Pakistan's) part is not supported by the facts on the ground!

We have gone through the reasons several times.

We have, and I have countered your reasoning, IMO successfully.

Just the fact that Pakistan stands for implementing the right of the Kashmiris to determine their future status on Kashmir themselves through a plebiscite, and India does not, despite agreeing to it multiple times earlier, gives us the 'higher moral ground'.

India stands for occupation and the violation of her commitments to the Kashmiri people, the international community and to Pakistan. Pakistan stands for implementing and honoring all of that.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Good luck fighting insugencies on both fronts.

Thank you - I doubt we will have two fronts though, given the pace at which Kashmir might be resolved. We will have experience bar none but NATO in fighting a brutal COIN campaign in the most hostile territory (geographically, culturally and from the perspective of local support).

Any Kashmiri insurgents that do challenge the state will seem like a walk in the park (no offense Dabong).

 

[Flintlock]

I would just like to say that the assumption of the high moral ground on your (or Pakistan's) part is not supported by the facts on the ground!

We have gone through the reasons several times.

They obviously have no moral high ground - the whole world knows that.

Their response to alleged Indian occupation and atrocities is to support religious extremists of the worst kind, who are answerable to nobody for their acts, and ironically, ended up creating many fold the kind of suffering that they were accusing Indians of being the perpetrators of.