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Leopard 2A7+ for Saudi Arabia

@Blackeagle
Again, I find it funny to see that their first course of action to throw even more money to cross obstacles :)

It's just :) anyway, as i added my above post any sane person would upgrade existing Abrams' to M1A2SEP level before going to shopping :)

As far as I know they are being upgraded, anyway, they have Abrams in small numbers and need to replace the aging M-60+AMX-30 fleets, and I think Saudis have made the best choice.
 
As far as I know they are being upgraded, anyway, they have Abrams in small numbers and need to replace the aging M-60+AMX-30 fleets, and I think Saudis have made the best choice.

Well at least they know where to throw their money :D
 
Gosh saudis act like teenage boys who stole their father's credit card :D

Having both Abrams and Leopard2 series tanks means they gonna need different spare parts and technical crews for each of those. It will make it twice harder to maintain and supply this state of the art equipment. Having an additional supply line for just 200 tanks is just... amateurish :)


You can't just go out there and buy anything you like with your petrol money :) Realize you aren't buying a toys your king's childeren. It'd be wise to do as our israeli friend over here just said; just upgrade your damn Abrams'

It has something more to do with diversifying the supply sources. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. It maybe a pain in the a$$ to carry two baskets, but it sure is hellova lot safer.
 
It has something more to do with diversifying the supply sources. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. It maybe a pain in the a$$ to carry two baskets, but it sure is hellova lot safer.

You can do it for extremely important stuff like fighter aircraft maybe. But you can't have two things for everything in an army. Might as well have two armies?

I mean, ther are lot easier ways to secure your one basket.
-Get your sh*t from your allies
-Make your sh*t yourself

After ALTAY's development most of Leopard2s' sub syestems will be replaced by ALTAY sub syestems, superior ones. If you can't do that buy from Pakistan! you probably won't get the best tank in the world but you will get your TOT and full technical assistance.

Anyway, You chose to do it this way. Nobody else can offer a better tank in this planet than Rheinmetall-KMW. I'd pick Leopard2A4 over any variant of Abrams so Leopard2A7+ is way better than anything you can compare it with. As i said at least you threw your money to right place :D
 
You can do it for extremely important stuff like fighter aircraft maybe. But you can't have two things for everything in an army. Might as well have two armies?

I mean, ther are lot easier ways to secure your one basket.
-Get your sh*t from your allies
-Make your sh*t yourself

After ALTAY's development most of Leopard2s' sub syestems will be replaced by ALTAY sub syestems, superior ones. If you can't do that buy from Pakistan! you probably won't get the best tank in the world but you will get your TOT and full technical assistance.

Anyway, You chose to do it this way. Nobody else can offer a better tank in this planet than Rheinmetall-KMW. I'd pick Leopard2A4 over any variant of Abrams so Leopard2A7+ is way better than anything you can compare it with. As i said at least you threw your money to right place :D

Well as you said. "Make it yourself". Which is a lengthy process which we are on the way to. However despite the whole "Saudi Groups is designing a Tank" rumor there isn't really any evidence of us being on that way.

Head of SMIC said that they have a production facility for Leopard 2 tanks in an interview maybe it was a tongue slip I don't know. But so far recently not a single deal went through without a significant amount of ToT. And quite honestly if there is one tank in the world I want its ToT it is this one.

Our army didn't like the Abrams very much actually. It always overheated, needed constant on-field repairing, guzzled gas like there is no tomorrow among others. And quite honestly it is kind of understood in Army circles it was a mistake, which is why the M1s are only being upgraded no new additions are coming aside from 52 M1A1s the US left in Iraq and was sold as scrap.
 
Well as you said. "Make it yourself". Which is a lengthy process which we are on the way to. However despite the whole "Saudi Groups is designing a Tank" rumor there isn't really any evidence of us being on that way.

Head of SMIC said that they have a production facility for Leopard 2 tanks in an interview maybe it was a tongue slip I don't know. But so far recently not a single deal went through without a significant amount of ToT. And quite honestly if there is one tank in the world I want its ToT it is this one.

Our army didn't like the Abrams very much actually. It always overheated, needed constant on-field repairing, guzzled gas like there is no tomorrow among others. And quite honestly it is kind of understood in Army circles it was a mistake, which is why the M1s are only being upgraded no new additions are coming aside from 52 M1A1s the US left in Iraq and was sold as scrap.
Well, good morning. M1 is and was always a crappy tank. Your politicians acted like... well i don't want to use bad words about your country any more than i already did by generalizing arabs but they were complete idiots for snubbing Brazilian Osorio.

And Americans shouldn't screw MBT70 up. And if you want TOT on Leopard2 you can forget it, Germans will never give it to you even if you rain dollars on them :) Not even if you bring C17 Globemaster load of money :D

Europeans especially German and French are being so narrow minded sometimes. Try UK, you might even get to secrets of dorchester armor with a right proposal.
 
Well, good morning. M1 is and was always a crappy tank. Your politicians acted like... well i don't want to use bad words about your country any more than i already did by generalizing arabs but they were complete idiots for snubbing Brazilian Osorio.

And Americans shouldn't screw MBT70 up. And if you want TOT on Leopard2 you can forget it, Germans will never give it to you even if you rain dollars on them :) Not even if you bring C17 Globemaster load of money :D

Europeans especially German and French are being so narrow minded sometimes. Try UK, you might even get to secrets of dorchester armor with a right proposal.

The Osorio was supposed to be a Joint Production between KSA and Brazil like the Astros but after Gulf War our higher ups wanted all the US kiss assery they can muster. And no actually French and German have been very open to ToT to us recently.

Most notably regarding the French is the Cesar Self propelled Howitzer that is assembled and partly produced in KSA as well as the Nexter Aravis. In German side, they have been showering us with civilian ToT like mad. From Car Engines to Turbine Engines.
 
You can do it for extremely important stuff like fighter aircraft maybe. But you can't have two things for everything in an army. Might as well have two armies?

Most of the non-manufacturing countries around the world have this issue including ours. Maintaining a diversified fleet of tanks is a real bummer on cost aspect. It would especially be draining Saudi coffers to some extent as they are maintaining three different types of tanks rather than even two different types.


I mean, ther are lot easier ways to secure your one basket.
-Get your sh*t from your allies
-Make your sh*t yourself

Making ones' own shyte means having a hell lot of development taking place simultaneously between educational, infrastructure and scientific sectors. That cannot be held at bay when national security is priority.

After ALTAY's development most of Leopard2s' sub syestems will be replaced by ALTAY sub syestems, superior ones. If you can't do that buy from Pakistan! you probably won't get the best tank in the world but you will get your TOT and full technical assistance.

So when is it tentatively joining Turkish Army? Will your government sanction simultaneous export order clearance or first your Army will be equipped completely before exporting?

Anyway, You chose to do it this way. Nobody else can offer a better tank in this planet than Rheinmetall-KMW. I'd pick Leopard2A4 over any variant of Abrams so Leopard2A7+ is way better than anything you can compare it with. As i said at least you threw your money to right place :D


100% agree with you man. German tank models are the best in the world.
 
Well, good morning. M1 is and was always a crappy tank.
M1 was and is the best tank.

Your politicians acted like... well i don't want to use bad words about your country any more than i already did by generalizing arabs but they were complete idiots for snubbing Brazilian Osorio.
Who needs Osorio?

And Americans shouldn't screw MBT70 up.
MBT70 was junk.

And if you want TOT on Leopard2 you can forget it, Germans will never give it to you even if you rain dollars on them :) Not even if you bring C17 Globemaster load of money :D
There is absolutely nothing special about Leopard 2. Its just a modernization of Leopard 1.
 
M1 was and is the best tank.


Who needs Osorio?


MBT70 was junk.


There is absolutely nothing special about Leopard 2. Its just a modernization of Leopard 1.

Just the most protected, fastest, and most sophisticated in the world. KSA has been trying to get it since 80s.
 
@Tshering22
Otokar will be making this production and they are one gigantic company who i believe can produce for both Turkish Army demands and export market simultaneously but it will still take some time to produce over a thousand tanks for ourselves.

M1 was and is the best tank.

God please be kidding me
 
@Tshering22
Otokar will be making this production and they are one gigantic company who i believe can produce for both Turkish Army demands and export market simultaneously but it will still take some time to produce over a thousand tanks for ourselves.



God please be kidding me

No sane person with basic military knowledge regarding tanks would say otherwise. Abrams is one of the best tanks. However, it has shortcomings like any other human made thing, such over heating of the engine.
 
Just the most protected
* Leopard has weaker front armor than Abrams.
* Leopard has more weakened zones than Abrams (large gun mask, sight area).

* Leopard has very poor protection of ammo in its turret.

_Leopard2HEL_20.jpg


* Leopards ammo in hull is not protected. Abrams holds all of its ammo behind blast doors.

leopard2a6.1347793552.jpg


Both have 1500 hp engines. No any real difference here.

and most sophisticated in the world.
Abrams got thermal sights for gunner and commander before the Leopard. C4I also before Leopard.
 
Abrams is way more difficult and expensive for maintenance and you know why they are using DU ammunition? because they can't put a 120mm/L55 gun on it. Abrams' turret was originally designed for 105mm rifled gun same as M60s and it can't handle the weight of the L55. And Abrams' "1500hp" engine lights it on IR sights like a christmas tree it consumes three times more fuel than Leopard2 for same power output.

Germans make best phucking tanks since the invention of it.
 
* Leopard has weaker front armor than Abrams.
* Leopard has more weakened zones than Abrams (large gun mask, sight area).

* Leopard has very poor protection of ammo in its turret.


* Leopards ammo in hull is not protected. Abrams holds all of its ammo behind blast doors.



Both have 1500 hp engines. No any real difference here.


Abrams got thermal sights for gunner and commander before the Leopard. C4I also before Leopard.

Well, all books and specialized sited I have read suggest that Leopard is the most protected tank:


Protection
The Leopard 2 uses spaced, multi-layered composite armour throughout the design. The Leopard 2A5 and A6 models have additional armour added to the turret front, and on the hull and side skirts. Estimated levels of protection for the Leopard 2 range from 590 - 690 RHAe on the turret, 600 RHAe on the glacis and lower front hull on the Leopard 2A4, to 920 - 940 RHAe on the turret, 620 RHAe on the glacis and lower front hull on the Leopard 2A6 against kinetic projectiles. The mine-protected Leopard 2A4M and 2A6M adds an additional mine protection plate for the belly, which increases protection against mines and improvised explosive devices.[6] All Leopard 2 variants after the Leopard 2A6 include spall liners on the inside of the tank, protecting the crew. The Leopard 2A6M CAN increases protection against rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) by including additional slat armour.
Two groups of 4 Wegmann 76 mm smoke mortars are mounted on either side of the turret and can be electrically fired either as single rounds or in salvos of four are mounted on most Leopard 2 models, with the exception of Dutch Leopard 2s, which are instead equipped with a Dutch-designed smoke mortar system with six barrels on each side. Swedish Leopard 2s utilize French GALIX smoke dispensers, similar to the system found on the French Leclerc.
The crew is also protected against Nuclear, Biological and Chemical (NBC) threats, as the Leopard 2 is equipped with a NBC overpressurization system which provides up to 4 mbar (0.004 kp/cm2) over-pressure inside the vehicle.
The Leopard 2 is equipped with a fire protection system. Four 9 kg Halon fire extinguisher bottles are installed on the right behind the driver's station. The bottles are connected to pipes and hoses and are activated automatically by the fire detection system, when temperatures rise above 82°C (180 °F) inside the fighting compartment, or manually via a control panel in the driver's compartment. An extra 2.5 kg Halon fire extinguisher is also stored on the floor beneath the main gun.

Armament


Armament


Ammunition storage of a Leopard 2A4.
[edit]Primary
The primary armament for production versions of the Leopard 2 is the Rheinmetall 120 mm smoothbore gun, in either the L44 variant (found on all production Leopard 2s until the A5), or the L55 variant (as found on the Leopard 2A6 and subsequent models).[6] 27 rounds of the main gun ammunition are stored in a special magazine in the forward section of the hull, to the left of the driver's station, with an additional 15 rounds stored in the left side of the turret bustle, and separated from the fighting compartment by an electrically operated door.[6] If the ammunition storage area is hit, a blow-off panel in the turret roof would direct an explosion upwards away from the crew compartment.[6] The gun is fully stabilized, and can fire a variety of types of rounds, such as the German DM33 APFSDS-T anti-tank round, which is said to be able to penetrate 560 millimeters (22 in) of steel armour at a range of 2,000 metres (2,200 yd),[9] and the German DM12 multipurpose anti-tank projectile (MPAT).[10] For the L55 gun, a newer APFSDS-T round was introduced to take advantage of the longer barrel, the DM-53, which is said to be able to penetrate in excess of 810 mm of RHAe armour at a range of 2,000 meters.[6] The bore evacuator and the gun's thermal sleeve of the A4 and A5, designed to regulate the temperature of the barrel, are fabricated out of glass-reinforced plastic. The barrel has a chrome lining to increase barrel life.[11] The main gun is capable of power elevating from +20° to −9°.[12]
Rheinmetall has developed an upgrade for Leopard 2 tanks to give them the ability to fire the LAHAT anti-tank guided missile through the main gun; the missile can engage targets out to a range of 6,000 metres (20,000 ft).[13]

800px-Leopard_2A4_Munitionsbunker_Turmheck.jpg
 

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