Last Air Battle On This Day

[Xestan]

I KNOW history will repeat itself in any case of future conflict Insh'ALLAH.. PAF is surely something to be proud of..

Man! Just imagine, your enemy is 3 times larger than you

 

[DesiGuy]

indeed, it will.

 

[John Doe]

The last air battle of 1971 war between PAF and IAF took place on 17th December. The encounter involved a humble PAF F-86 Sabre against a Supersonic MIG-21 of the IAF.
Flt Lt. Maqsood Amir emerged the victorious pilot when he shot down the MIG-21, No C 116 through a missile attack.
The Indian pilot was captured after ejecting from his stricken aircraft.

Actually this day(Dec 17th) was a really good one for IAF, since our air warriors shot down 2 F-104(PAF's creme de la creme) this day!
Flt Lt Aruna Kumar Datta shot down one Starfighter over Nayachor and Flt Lt Niraj Kukreja shot the other ill-fated PAF jet.
17 Dec 71 F-104A MiG-21FL 29 F/L Niraj Kukreja Nayachor 9 sqn (RJAF)
17 Dec 71 F-104A (s/n 56-787) MiG-21FL 29 F/L AK.Datta Nayachor F/L Samad Changezi (9 sqn) / KIA

Thanks Windjammer for bringing up this topic

 

[Windjammer]

Actually this day(Dec 17th) was a really good one for IAF, since our air warriors shot down 2 F-104(PAF's creme de la creme) this day!
Flt Lt Aruna Kumar Datta shot down one Starfighter over Nayachor and Flt Lt Nitin Gajanan Junnarkar shot the other ill-fated PAF jet.
17 Dec 71 F-104A MiG-21FL 29 F/L Niraj Kukreja Nayachor 9 sqn (RJAF)
17 Dec 71 F-104A (s/n 56-787) MiG-21FL 29 F/L AK.Datta Nayachor F/L Samad Changezi (9 sqn) / KIA

Thanks Windjammer for bringing up this topic

Seems you are a nobe as far as the air war scenario is concerned, your cumbersome knowledge is apparent when you term the F-104 as PAF's spear head. Let me enlighten you, in 1971, the F-104 was in process of being phased out and only seven were operational with the PAF, with four still flying after the war. Mirages were the real front runners.
The frivilious Indian MOD was desperate to salvage some pride of the IAF, hence they claimed 9 F-104s destroyed, including several RJAF machine as mentioned in your lost case, in fact, the Jordanian aircraft arrived after the hostilities ended.
As for the other claim, F/L Samad Changezi, flew eleven missions, he was responsible for the destruction of an Indian radar station and damage to an IAF aircraft. Albeit he was shot down while battling with two MIG-21s, but it certainly wasn't on the fateful day.
In any case, it's a different satisfaction of shooting down enemy's latest supersonic aircraft with a Korean era subsonic fighter than battling with odds flying in better class machines.
BTW, since you are enjoying oblivion, MIG-21s appeared some what later than the Starfighter.

 

[John Doe]

Seems you are a nobe as far as the air war scenario is concerned, your cumbersome knowledge is apparent when you term the F-104 as PAF's spear head. Let me enlighten you, in 1971, the F-104 was in process of being phased out and only seven were operational with the PAF, with four still flying after the war. Mirages were the real front runners.
The frivilious Indian MOD was desperate to salvage some pride of the IAF, hence they claimed 9 F-104s destroyed, including several RJAF machine as mentioned in your lost case, in fact, the Jordanian aircraft arrived after the hostilities ended.
As for the other claim, F/L Samad Changezi, flew eleven missions, he was responsible for the destruction of an Indian radar station and damage to an IAF aircraft. Albeit he was shot down while battling with two MIG-21s, but it certainly wasn't on the fateful day.
In any case, it's a different satisfaction of shooting down enemy's latest supersonic aircraft with a Korean era subsonic fighter than battling with odds flying in better class machines.
.

My, my. Did my simple post, which actually thanked you, embarrass you so much that you replied with a unfortunate lack of civility?

Why did you call me a 'nobe' (were you trying to spell 'noob')? When you reply to this question please also let me know how many hours you have spent in a cockpit. And how can knowledge be 'cumbersome'? If my English teacher had heard this.....

Now to reply to your post in more specific manner:

"BTW, since you are enjoying oblivion, MIG-21s appeared some what later than the Starfighter"

Please check the following links, the Starfighter preceded the Mig 21 by only 11 months. The F 104 flew on March 4,1954 and the Mig 21 first flew on Feb 14 1955.

Mikoyan/Gurevich Ye-2 - experimental

Harry's Lockheed F-104 Starfighter Site. History, Photographs and Video's of ther Plane.

Secondly,are you disagreeing with me when I called the Starfighter the 'creme de la creme' of the PAF? Dont give me statements on which aircraft performed best. Which was the most advanced and sophisticated aircraft on the sub-continent in 1971?

Thirdly, why the refusal to accept that Flight Lt.Abdul Samad Changezi was shot down on Dec 17? A simple Google search will show you so many results showing this, including Pakistani posters right here on Defence.pk. Here is one for your perusal:
The Pakistan AF lost three F-104s during the 1971 war including a RJAF F-104A with tail number 56-787 on December 17, 1971 (this is confirmed).
(F/L Samad Changezi was shot down (KIA) by F/L Aruna K. Datta flying a MiG-21FL).
From:
916 Starfighter

This also answers your claim as to when the RJAF arrived to help the PAF.

Now a request from someone who is a minimum of 10 years older than you: the anonymity of the internet does not mean that rules of etiquette don't apply. Would you speak to an elder cousin that way? Just because he said something that you wish he had kept quiet about?

 

[MadDog]

All the data below is from the website which has facts of worldwide airforce aces and is thus neutral, reliable and unbiased. It contains the names of pilots who scored victories ,the type of aircraft which they were flying at that moment, and the type of aircraft which was shot down.


1971 war

Aircraft shot down by PAF: Air Aces Homepage

Aircraft shot down by IAF:
Air Aces Homepage

1965 war

PAF victories: Air Aces Homepage

IAF victories:
Air Aces Homepage

For further knowledge:

PAF victories in Arab-Israeli 6 Day war
Air Aces Homepage

PAF role in Arab/Israeli skirmishes
Air Aces Homepage

PAF's victories against Soviet and Communist Afghani aircrafts
Air Aces Homepage

THE WEBSITE CAN BE ACCESSED THROUGH THIS LINK
Air Aces Homepage

Note: Just click the links...they will open...i know the title on every link is airforce aces homepage..but every link has different info.

 

[Windjammer]

My, my. Did my simple post, which actually thanked you, embarrass you so much that you replied with a unfortunate lack of civility?

Thanked me ?? I guess sarcasm has no limits.

Why did you call me a 'nobe' (were you trying to spell 'noob')? When you reply to this question please also let me know how many hours you have spent in a cockpit. And how can knowledge be 'cumbersome'? If my English teacher had heard this.....

Some one referring to an almost two decades old aircraft as creme de la creme is obviously a noob in the aviation scenario, and since being a nit pick is not one of my abilities, more often i tend to ignore small discrepancies, and your English teacher will have no regrets in the words therapy, however for your enlightenment, i'll make it easy
cum·ber·some   
[kuhm-ber-suhm]
burdensome; troublesome.
2.
unwieldy; clumsy.

Now to reply to your post in more specific manner:

"BTW, since you are enjoying oblivion, MIG-21s appeared some what later than the Starfighter"

Please check the following links, the Starfighter preceded the Mig 21 by only 11 months. The F 104 flew on March 4,1954 and the Mig 21 first flew on Feb 14 1955.

And the F-104 in PAF service were Ex-USAF machines, which first flew in mid fifties, but were sold to PAF in 1962, some of them without guns and not wired to launch AAMs, where as IAF MIG-21s were state of the art, incorporating latest tech of that decade.

Secondly,are you disagreeing with me when I called the Starfighter the 'creme de la creme' of the PAF? Dont give me statements on which aircraft performed best. Which was the most advanced and sophisticated aircraft on the sub-continent in 1971?

As far as PAF was concerned, the Mirage-III was the most capable aircraft in it's inventory, which started arriving in 1967 and still play an important role to this day.

Thirdly, why the refusal to accept that Flight Lt.Abdul Samad Changezi was shot down on Dec 17? A simple Google search will show you so many results showing this, including Pakistani posters right here on Defence.pk. Here is one for your perusal:
The Pakistan AF lost three F-104s during the 1971 war including a RJAF F-104A with tail number 56-787 on December 17, 1971 (this is confirmed).

Albeit, i read to the effect that he was shot down during the war, none the less there is nothing to suggest that he was flying a Jordanian aircraft, point in reference, most if not all PAF F-104s had a pre-fix "56" for the year of manufacture as was the case with Samad's aircraft, and is evident in the link.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/45007-f-104-alas-badmash.html

This also answers your claim as to when the RJAF arrived to help the PAF.

It transpires into at least two theories.
1: One is a victim of his country's propaganda Inguinity.
2: The confusion persists due to the F-5s presence in Pakistan.

Now a request from someone who is a minimum of 10 years older than you: the anonymity of the internet does not mean that rules of etiquette don't apply. Would you speak to an elder cousin that way? Just because he said something that you wish he had kept quiet about?

Some what baffled at your claim of seniority, since i don't recall disclosing my DOB, anywhere on the forum, none the less, i will convey this as an acknowledgement, that i will never knowingly offend a senior citizen.

 

[John Doe]

Thanked me ?? I guess sarcasm has no limits.

Some one referring to an almost two decades old aircraft as creme de la creme is obviously a noob in the aviation scenario, and since being a nit pick is not one of my abilities, more often i tend to ignore small discrepancies, and your English teacher will have no regrets in the words therapy, however for your enlightenment, i'll make it easy
cum·ber·some   
[kuhm-ber-suhm]
burdensome; troublesome.
2.
unwieldy; clumsy. And the F-104 in PAF service were Ex-USAF machines, which first flew in mid fifties, but were sold to PAF in 1962, some of them without guns and not wired to launch AAMs, where as IAF MIG-21s were state of the art, incorporating latest tech of that decade.


As far as PAF was concerned, the Mirage-III was the most capable aircraft in it's inventory, which started arriving in 1967 and still play an important role to this day.Albeit, i read to the effect that he was shot down during the war, none the less there is nothing to suggest that he was flying a Jordanian aircraft, point in reference, most if not all PAF F-104s had a pre-fix "56" for the year of manufacture as was the case with Samad's aircraft, and is evident in the link.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/45007-f-104-alas-badmash.html

It transpires into at least two theories.
1: One is a victim of his country's propaganda Inguinity.
2: The confusion persists due to the F-5s presence in Pakistan.

Some what baffled at your claim of seniority, since i don't recall disclosing my DOB, anywhere on the forum, none the less, i will convey this as an acknowledgement, that i will never knowingly offend a senior citizen.

Starting in reverse order, your age(If not chronological, at least intellectual) is evident from the quality of your posts and your choice of words.
Speaking of choice of words, tell me : are you just visiting U.K. or have you spent some years there? I always thought they spoke English well.

Now if you had bothered reading the link I sent earlier, you would not make a statement like:' F-104 in PAF service were Ex-USAF machines, which first flew in mid fifties, but were sold to PAF in 1962, some of them without guns and not wired to launch AAMs'

To their credit, PAF was ahead of the USAF in many ways:
At PAF's request, all its F-104As were refitted with the M-61 20 mm Gatling gun, whereas its counterparts in the USAF had been divested of their guns on the assumption that all post-Korea air combat would occur at high speeds where only the wing tip-mounted Sidewinder missiles would be effective.
The PAF's foresight was amply rewarded in actual combat and the USAF too reverted to having machine guns as mandatory equipment on all its fighters
in due course. The newer GE J-79-11A engine was also installed on the aircraft. This made the Pakistan F-104s somewhat unique:
they had the gun and being the lightest of the F-104 series with a more advanced J-79 engine enjoyed the best thrust-to-weight ratio.
A retractable hook was fitted beneath the rear fuselage to engage emergency runway arrestor wires.

New definition of 'Nobe/noob': Someone who knows precious little about his own country's aircraft.

The rest of your post (RJAF, F104's technological superiority, etc.) is either previously answered in my post or you have made erroneous conclusions.

I would have appreciated an acknowledgement that I was right and you were wrong about the date of Flt.Lt. Changezi's shoot down.

You are 100% accurate when you say I am senior to you. In fact my seniority is overwhelming on many different levels.

If you want to continue this meeting of the minds, please, please, with a cherry on the top, thoroughly read my points and your counterpoints first.

 

[Windjammer]

Starting in reverse order, your age(If not chronological, at least intellectual) is evident from the quality of your posts and your choice of words.
Speaking of choice of words, tell me : are you just visiting U.K. or have you spent some years there? I always thought they spoke English well.

Now if you had bothered reading the link I sent earlier, you would not make a statement like:' F-104 in PAF service were Ex-USAF machines, which first flew in mid fifties, but were sold to PAF in 1962, some of them without guns and not wired to launch AAMs'

To their credit, PAF was ahead of the USAF in many ways:
At PAF's request, all its F-104As were refitted with the M-61 20 mm Gatling gun, whereas its counterparts in the USAF had been divested of their guns on the assumption that all post-Korea air combat would occur at high speeds where only the wing tip-mounted Sidewinder missiles would be effective.
The PAF's foresight was amply rewarded in actual combat and the USAF too reverted to having machine guns as mandatory equipment on all its fighters
in due course. The newer GE J-79-11A engine was also installed on the aircraft. This made the Pakistan F-104s somewhat unique:
they had the gun and being the lightest of the F-104 series with a more advanced J-79 engine enjoyed the best thrust-to-weight ratio.
A retractable hook was fitted beneath the rear fuselage to engage emergency runway arrestor wires.

New definition of 'Nobe/noob': Someone who knows precious little about his own country's aircraft.

The rest of your post (RJAF, F104's technological superiority, etc.) is either previously answered in my post or you have made erroneous conclusions.

I would have appreciated an acknowledgement that I was right and you were wrong about the date of Flt.Lt. Changezi's shoot down.

You are 100% accurate when you say I am senior to you. In fact my seniority is overwhelming on many different levels.

If you want to continue this meeting of the minds, please, please, with a cherry on the top, thoroughly read my points and your counterpoints first.

To cut the slack, seniority merely doesn't ooze through by sitting behind a screen punching fancy words of expression into a key pad.
My dialect may not be of your call center caliber, but it's suffice to force you to digress from the original subject to a chest thumping banter and on towards personal ventures.
You may be of nature, who washes the soap before his hands, but let me remind you, the topic in focus was the humble Sabre, taking out a much superior opponent. Irrelative of the dates, F/L Changezi was shot down by a MIG-21, however, the victory would have been spectacular if the kill was achieved by say a Hunter, and not by a platform of superior numbers and quality.
As for the Cherry, i usually swallow that before gulping down the bubbly.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

My dialect may not be of your call center caliber, but it's suffice to force you to digress from the original subject to a chest thumping banter and on towards personal ventures..

 

[John Doe]

I wish I was in a call center in India, more fun than this boring engineering job!

Ok, clearly you have no valid response to any of my points. More germanely, if you read my posts you will NOT find me saying that one kill is better than other. In this alternate universe that you call your mind, you think I wrote that.

Believe me, respect is not earned by being proficient in a foreign tongue. You could have replied to me in any vernacular language and if there was merit, I would have acknowledged it. My grandmother could not speak a word of English, let alone type it. So what, I still respected her. So why are you typing in a manner that is clearly shows you are sitting with a dictionary in one hand, using words and phrases that make little sense?

You will perhaps look back at your posts here and cringe one day in sheer embarrasment.

 

[KS]

Wise men say it is always important to win wars rather than chest thump over isolated battles !!

 

[mayankmatador]

as my brothers have compared mig-21 with sabre
i will tell u a story of sabre with dimunitive gnat famously known as sabre killer
The diminutive Gnat fighter called the Saber Killer proved that the skill and ingenuity of the IAF pilots was crucial in neutralizing the technologically superior PAF Sabre.
----------
The air war began on 22 November, 1971, several days before the formal start of hostilities. The first encounter was so dramatic and happened in full view of so many ordinary people on the ground that it would endure in public memory as one of the most vivid moments of the war. The concept of air battle, so remote till then to ordinary Indians, would become an integral part of the concept of warfare.

The scene of action was in the eastern sector, a few minutes flying time away from Calcutta, the largest Indian metropolis in the east. The provocation was the repeated intrusion by groups of PAF F-86 Sabres into a salient inside Indian territory. This salient called Boyra was being used by Bangladeshi Mukti Bahini guerrillas to launch attacks inside East Pakistan. The Pakistani Army in the east had reacted angrily by launching a full scale attack in that sector but had had to beat a retreat after losing 13 tanks and many men. The job of messing up the Mukti Bahini was given to the PAF Sabres which began crossing into Indian territory, strafing the area and slipping back into Pakistani air space. The IAF had to get them while they were in Indian air space. The window was small: barely a couple of minutes wide, and the PAF fighters had to be intercepted over a 3 km wide corridor surrounded on three sides by Pakistani territory.

Four IAF Gnats were ordered to scramble at about 2:49 on 22 November afternoon to take on four Sabres strafing the Indian salient. The Gnats got three Sabres. The IAF formation leader, Flight Lieutenant R. Massey; Flight Lieutenant M. A. Ganapathy and Flying Officer D.Lazarus each got one Sabre. One Sabre crashed into a pond in Chaugacha on the East Pakistani side of the border, while the other two went down over Indian territory. Flt. Lt. Parvez Mehdi Qureshi and Fg Offr Khalil Ahmed, the two PAF pilots who ejected over India were captured and produced before a crowded press conference the next day. The action was splashed in newspaper front pages all over the country and the three pilots who scored hits became national heroes overnight. This encounter set the tone of the air battles that were to follow. News of the incident and the famous gun camera shots were splashed across newspaper headlines the world over and the tiny Gnat acquired a reputation of being the Sabre killer. Conversations picked up in the air suggested that PAF fighters were instructed not to engage with Gnats, although this small aircraft could easily be out flown by Sabres and Starfighters. The PAf also subsequently withdrew some its aircraft from East Pakistan leaving a sole squadron of Sabres to grapple with the eleven IAF squadrons positioned in the east.

 

[Rafi]

The PAF has won all of the air battles - kill ratio is very heavy in PAF's favour

 

[Future Weapon]

are bhai ab 1 plane gira ho ya 10..jeet to hamari hi hui thi......