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Kunduz Airlift - The Airlift Of Evil by Pakistan

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Ok - I wanted to establish the following

1) Taliban were Pakistani proxies
2) For some Pakistanis Taliban are still proxies

The purpose of the thread was to counter the baseless thread regarding India's role in Afghanistan, that even accuses India of drugs trade!!!

My reply to that thread was that India is investing in Afghanistan so that Taliban rule like situation does not arise again, as the land then was used against India by pakistan to recruit and train india targetting terrorists and to carry out anti india ops like the kandahar high jacking.

Hence India's concerns and investments in Afghanistan are genuine and must be pushed forward.

I see no problem with India's investments and influence over Afghanistan as long as that land is not being used for anti-Pakistan activities. If Pakistan finds any evidence of such mischievous acts from across the border, we reserve the right to counter that through our proxies.
 
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That's not true, Taliban was never ready to hand over Osama. First they openly refused to hand over Osama and just few days before American attack, Taliban issued the statement,"We have asked Osama bin Laden to leave Afghanistan." but they never accepted to hand over Osama Bin Laden.

This solely because the US refused Taliban's proposal.

Had the taliban been given evidence and had the US accept the proposals the taliban made. Osama and lots of other Al-Qaeda could have been arrested.

Can you imagine? A war that could have been over within days with some minor arrests!
Instead we got a decade long failure.
 
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Please take your mind back to 2002.

Back then Mush & PaK were very very relevant.

Besides this a great deal of dirt has been brushed under the carpet over the last decade - everyone made mistakes.

The fact that a suggestion is being made to close this thread makes one wonder ... why ?

One understands the circumstances that existed then. We are aware that On 21 November 2001, The US air force halted airstrikes on the Northern Afghan city of Kunduz, ostensibly so that Mullah Fazil, the Taliban Commander in the city could organize its surrender, but in fact to allow Pakistani military planes to fly in and rescue the more than one thousand Pakistai soldiers and agents who were fighting alongside al Qaeda in the besieged city. Anyone from al Qaeda with enough influence over the ISI, or anyone who was considered too dangerous to abandon to US interrogators, secured a seat to safety.

I think ppl should be allowed to discuss this.

1) This is just a conspiracy theory until you have facts to validate it.
2) If these people really were working against US interests, it would be highly unlikely that the US would actually help facilitate their rescue, especially with the scars of 9/11 still fresh.
 
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There is reason to believe we airlifted some taliban and perhaps even non-combatants.
But Where is the evidence to say we aided Al-Qaeda? Please don't pull the Osama Pakistan card, that one is stupidly overused.
true, when it comes to aything against pakistan, US state dept, cnn, bbc, la tiimes, washington post, bbc , every one is a liar. Ground troops lie, US SOF operators on the ground lie and NA commanders lie. The only flag bearers of truth are the obvious ones.
If you want to go into that debate why not discuss the thnic divide at the time and consider both parties involved and ask yourself why is it that the US supported the Northern alliance and alienated Pukhtun.

US attacked mullah omars taliban regime backed and propped by pakistan, The same taliban whose human rights are comparable to dark ages, the same taliban which ethinically cleansed minority populations

And yes US aided NA led by Ahmed Shah Massoud, compare him and his leadership to mullah omar inc and you will see there is no need to debate the decision.

Yes, very good thing to do.
The US would have killed them and for what reason? What did the taliban have to do with the war on terror?
Aiding and abetting terror cells and leadership, terror camps, aiding and abetting hijackers, nationalizing opium production, genocides.

Great. Now put it into context, what was the situation when he said this?
The US threatened Pakistan in 2004, Musharraf complied.

Also by this time the Taliban were not as they were before 2001. They were looking to develop Afghanistan and bring a stable govt, that's right taliban got rid of a whole lot of the Opium trade, disarmed many Afghans and have one administration. Yes they were extreme, but the war and how it turned out doesn't make any sense. It is also the case that the Taliban before 9/11 continuously tried to maintain good relations with Pakistan. Nor did they ever conduct Al-Qaeda style attacks.

US threatened Pakistan in 2004, Musharraf complied; did that reflect the aspirations and national interests of pakistanis, If not how could he hold on to power?
 
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I see no problem with India's investments and influence over Afghanistan as long as that land is not being used for anti-Pakistan activities. If Pakistan finds any evidence of such mischievous acts from across the border, we reserve the right to counter that through our proxies.

That is subjective, whereas I was able to demonstrate with facts that India's concerns were genuine. We have seen no proof so far of India's anti pakistan role from Afghanistan. We have been trying to play an anti Taliban role though.

Since a part of Pakistan wants to control Afghanistan again using taliban proxies, that confrontation with Indian interest will happen. And that is Pakistan's choice to meddle in their neighbors' affairs.
 
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Utter Lie, This never happen. When USA asked for OSAMA, Taliban started drama (Like Pakistan doing in case of 26/11). Taliban start asking for proof. My dear brother USA is not rule by Kongresy Manmohan Singh. They know how to deal with these kind off ppl.

Why not? why not give evidence? Why not then agree to a proposal?
Why not allow international monitors to investigate.

You are forgetting that the US was suspiciously stubborn.

The truth is Taliban was scared and they were thinking to denounce OBL, It was ISI who told them that USA can not defeat Taliban.

Here we go again.

ISI... :blah:

How do you expect the taliban to hand over OBL without adequate evidence presented.
And why would they when the US started an INDISCRIMINANT bombing raid over taliban and Al-Qaeda alike before showing such evidence.

Why would they shut the doors to negotiation like this. Especially when there is no evidence even today to suggest that taliban had anything to do with 9/11?

At the end we saw how USA killed many Taliban (Even if they hide under ISI Patloon). How Americans kept there foot on OBL chest and put nickel in his head. Message is clear, who ever go against USA, Americans will do the same..[/COLOR]

Yes very idiotic of them

And you applaud it.

Their war started off with.

A few hundred miscreants and supporters to deal with.

Instead

The few hundred fled solely due to your own failures, ended up alienating an entire race of people, today they face many enemies... al-Qaeda stronger then ever, now al-Qaeda is international, the taliban, tribes and factions they've turned against them, a growing drug trade. And they've killed trillions and 10 years worth of war.

You've got tot understand... The US lost this war, before they fired even a single bullet.
 
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This solely because the US refused Taliban's proposal.

Had the taliban been given evidence and had the US accept the proposals the taliban made. Osama and lots of other Al-Qaeda could have been arrested.

Can you imagine? A war that could have been over within days with some minor arrests!
Instead we got a decade long failure.

Don't know about proof part. But Osama Bin Laden was kept with high regards by Mullah Omar it was impossible for him to hand him over to America. Time to time video of Bin Laden calling or warning for destruction of America. So, all such things were drama by Taliban.
 
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Dear sir, you are a think tank chairman here, have more than 5000 thoughtful posts, war in afghanistan begins in October 2001 with clear cut warnings to pakistan about the begining of bombing raids.

Konduz airlift starts on 21st november; So you want to say that pakistani government waits 42 days after the start of the bombings of afghanistan , and more absurdly waits another 12 days after siege of konduz to evacuate. You are saying pakistan waited till 3 days to fall of konduz, 42 days after the start of a well announced war to evacuate key diplomats of pakistani bureaucracy.

It just seems for the lack of better words "completely absurd"


It's important to realize that:

1) As one of the few countries to have recognized the Taliban Govt, Pakistan was keen up till the last moment to encourage a ceasefire and host a formal forum for dialogue.

2) Kunduz as one of Afghanistan's cultural, administrative and population centre was never considered an ideal target for bombing into non-existence and to the best of my knowledge, was never really bombed (the city, not the district). In such a situation, the diplomatic support staff would have remained relatively safe until street fighting began.

US state dept dubs it as a double cross by pakistan of airlifting taliban and al qeada leadership along with ISI operatives under the guise of air lift of ISI assets



"The request was made by Musharraf to Bush, but Cheney took charge ย— a token of who was handling Musharraf at the time. The approval was not shared with anyone at State, including Colin Powell, until well after the event. Musharraf said Pakistan needed to save its dignity and its valued people. Two planes were involved, which made several sorties a night over several nights. They took off from air bases in Chitral and Gilgit in Pakistan's Northern Areas, and landed in Kunduz, where the evacuees were waiting on the tarmac. Certainly hundreds and perhaps as many as one thousand people escaped. Hundreds of ISI officers, Taliban commanders, and foot soldiers belonging to the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan and Al Qaeda personnel boarded the planes. What was sold as a minor extraction turned into a major air bridge. The frustrated U.S. SOF who watched it from the surrounding high ground dubbed it "Operation Evil Airlift." Another senior U.S. diplomat told me afterward, "Musharraf fooled us because after we gave approval, the ISI may have run a much bigger operation and got out more people. We just don't know. At the time nobody wanted to hurt Musharraf, and his prestige with the army was at stake. The real question is why Musharraf did not get his men out before. Clearly the ISI was running its own war against the Americans and did not want to leave Afghanistan until the last moment."

As Mafiya has already quoted earlier in his post, this report was rubbished by Rumsfeld himself.
 
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1) This is just a conspiracy theory until you have facts to validate it.
2) If these people really were working against US interests, it would be highly unlikely that the US would actually help facilitate their rescue, especially with the scars of 9/11 still fresh.

Once again, One can understand the consternation Pak posters would have on a subject like this.
 
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we airlifted them and also helped US arrest some of the top commanders of Al Qaeda and Taliban..... :lol:


Where was US Airforce, CIA, US Marines??? Where was NA??? US can shoot down a plane full of civilians but do not shoot plane full of Taliban and AQ leaders ... ???
 
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Evidently, this happened with the knowledge of Uncle Sam

The

Nov 2001.

The United States took the unprecedented step this week of demanding that foreign airlines provide information on passengers boarding planes for America. Yet in the past week, a half dozen or more Pakistani air force cargo planes landed in the Taliban-held city of Kunduz and evacuated to Pakistan hundreds of non-Afghan soldiers who fought alongside the Taliban and even al-Qaida against the United States. What’s wrong with this picture?

THE PENTAGON, whose satellites and drones are able to detect sleeping guerrillas in subterranean caverns, claims it knows nothing of these flights. When asked about the mysterious airlift at a recent Pentagon briefing, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, denied knowledge of such flights. Myers backpedaled a bit, saying that, given the severe geography of the country, it might be possible to duck in and out of mountain valleys and conduct such an airlift undetected.

But Rumsfeld intervened. With his talent for being blunt and ambiguous at the same time, he said: “I have received absolutely no information that would verify or validate statements about airplanes moving in or out. I doubt them.”

SEE NO EVIL

Western reporters actually in Kunduz in the days after it fell this week found much to dispel that doubt. Reports first appeared in the Indian press, quoting intelligence sources who cited unusual radar contacts and an airlift of Pakistani troops out of the city. Their presence among the “enemy” may shock some readers, but not those who have paid attention to Afghanistan. Pakistan had hundreds of military advisers in Afghanistan before Sept. 11 helping the Taliban fight the Northern Alliance. Hundreds more former soldiers actively joined Taliban regiments, and many Pakistani volunteers were among the non-Afghan legions of al-Qaida.

Last Saturday, The New York Times picked up the scent, quoting Northern Alliance soldiers in a Page 1 story describing a two-day airlift by Pakistani aircraft, complete with witnesses describing groups of armed men awaiting evacuation at the airfield, then still in Taliban hands.

Another report, this in the Times of London, quotes an alliance soldier angrily denouncing the flights, which he reasonably assumed were conducted with America’s blessing.

“We had decided to kill all of them, and we are not happy with America for letting the planes come,” said the soldier, Mahmud Shah.

IN DENIAL

The credibility gap between these reports from the field and the “no comments” from the U.S. administration are large enough to drive a Marine Expeditionary Unit through. Calls by MSNBC.com and NBC News to U.S. military and intelligence officials shed no light on the evacuation reports, though they clearly were a hot topic of conversation. “Oh, you mean ‘Operation Evil Airlift’?” one military source joked. “Look, I can’t confirm anything about those reports. As far as I know, they just aren’t happening.” Three other military and defense sources simply denied any knowledge.

Something is up. It certainly appears to any reasonable observer that aircraft of some kind or another were taking off and landing in Kunduz’s final hours in Taliban hands. Among the many questions that grow out of this reality:

Was the passenger manifest on these aircraft limited to Pakistani military and intelligence men, or did it include some of the more prominent zealots Pakistan contributed to the ranks of the Taliban and al-Qaida?

What kind of deal was struck between the United States and Pakistan to allow this?

What safeguards did the United States demand to ensure the evacuated Pakistanis did not include men who will come back to haunt us?

What was done with the civilian volunteers once they arrived home in Pakistan? Where they arrested? Debriefed? Taken to safe houses? Or a state banquet?

WHY NOT ADMIT IT

The answers remain elusive. If the passengers were simply Pakistani military and intelligence men, and not civilian extremists, what possible motive is there for concealing the truth about their evacuation? Pakistan may believe that no one has noticed the warmth of its intelligence ties to the Taliban and even al-Qaida, but surely the Pentagon isn’t operating under this illusion, is it? This news organization has quoted U.S. intelligence sources as far back as 1997 as saying that ties between Pakistan’s intelligence service and al-Qaida, and links to the Taliban — a movement nurtured by Pakistan — are undeniable.

Furthermore, the United States can easily explain why it would have allowed a military ruler under intense pressure at home to adopt an unpopular pro-American stance in this war to evacuate some elite intelligence and military forces from a chaotic battlefield. But only if, in fact, the planes were limited to evacuating those people.

The lack of a forthright answer to this question suggests otherwise, and that is a great shame. The history of American policy in Southwest Asia, from the shah of Iran to Saddam Hussein to Afghanistan and Pakistan, is marred by one example after another of short-term decisions that stored up enormous trouble for later. We failed for decades to find common ground with the world’s largest democracy, India. We failed to temper the shah’s domestic abuses in Iran in the name of anti-communism and wound up with the ayatollahs. We decided not to rile our Gulf War coalition allies by pushing onto to Baghdad and find ourselves a decade later wondering how to deal with Saddam Hussein. We pumped Afghanistan and Pakistan with billions of dollars worth of weapons and military know-how to fight the Soviet invasion, but then adopted the Pontius Pilate approach in victory, washing our hands of these struggling nations as soon as Moscow withdrew.

Now, are we careening down the same road with a nuclear-armed Pakistan? Are we allowing an army of anti-American zealots to live and fight another day for the sake of our convenient marriage with Pakistan’s current dictator? I wish I could quote Rumsfeld. I wish I could say “I doubt it.” I can’t.

Copyright MSNBC 2001
 
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It's important to realize that:

1) As one of the few countries to have recognized the Taliban Govt, Pakistan was keen up till the last moment to encourage a ceasefire and host a formal forum for dialogue.

2) Kunduz as one of Afghanistan's cultural, administrative and population centre was never considered an ideal target for bombing into non-existence and to the best of my knowledge, was never really bombed (the city, not the district). In such a situation, the diplomatic support staff would have remained relatively safe until street fighting began.


When did pakistan pull out its diplomats from Libya?

(Again, konduz comes under siege on 9th november, airlift begins 21st, Am i missing something here, Will you let your diplomats in till the one day of fall in any city?)
 
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I will call out a conspiracy theory be it on any matter or targeting any particular subject.

Only Pakistan conspiracy theory is conspiracy theory.....what Indians say is truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth.
 
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When did pakistan pull out its diplomats from Libya?

Much after the suburbs of Tripoli had been attacked by the rebels.

(Again, konduz comes under siege on 9th november, airlift begins 21st, Am i missing something here, Will you let your diplomats in till the one day of fall in any city?)

With a falling regime that Pakistan was doing everything to help, yes.
 
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