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Kim Jong Il warned North Korea to stay away from China in his will

only evil because he kicked the western imperialist out of china. i'm sure if mao sided with the westerners to help enslave china instead, he would be held to the highest standards.

Evil because he single handedly caused the deaths of more human beings, his "own" people mind you, than any other figure in history, even Hitler or Stalin. Mao was truly a monster, if any human could be called that. Read the biography I have cited.
 
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you speak with a forked tongue. i am very well aware of you, "truthseeker".

See, that's exactly what I predicted. An ad hominem attack. In case this is above your education level, here is a quote from Wiki:

"An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy."
 
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See, that's exactly what I predicted. An ad hominem attack. In case this is above your education level, here is a quote from Wiki:

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy

and i stand correct. you are a deceiver. where is the "proof" of your claims other then those 'gordan chang' type books which are filled with evil china this, china will collapse that, etc. i wonder where the real propaganda is coming from. :rolleyes:
 
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and i stand correct. you are a deceiver. where is the "proof" of your claims other then those 'gordan chang' type books which are filled with evil china this, china will collapse that, etc. i wonder where the real propaganda is coming from. :rolleyes:

The book I cited has nothing to do with Gordon Chang. The Chinese author is Jung Chang, no relation to Gordon Chang.

From Wikipedia:

Jung Chang (simplified Chinese: 张戎; traditional Chinese: 張戎; pinyin: Zhāng Róng; Wade–Giles: Chang Jung, born March 25, 1952) is a Chinese-British writer now living in London, best known for her family autobiography Wild Swans, selling over 10 million copies worldwide but banned in the People's Republic of China.

Her 832-page biography of Mao Zedong, Mao: The Unknown Story, written with her husband, the British historian Jon Halliday, was published in June 2005.

Chang was born March 25, 1952 in Yibin, Sichuan Province, China. Her parents were both Communist Party of China officials, and her father was greatly interested in literature. She quickly developed a love of reading and writing, composing poetry as a child.

As Party cadres, life was relatively good for her family at first; her parents worked hard, and her father became successful as a propagandist at a regional level. His formal ranking was as a "level 10 official", meaning that he was one of 20,000 or so most important cadres, or ganbu, in the country. The Communist Party provided her family with a dwelling in a guarded, walled compound, a maid and chauffeur, as well as a wet-nurse and nanny for Chang and her three siblings. This level of privilege in China's relatively impoverished 1950s was extraordinary.

Chang writes that she was originally named Er-hong (二鴻 "Second Swan"), which sounds like the Chinese word for "faded red". As communists were "deep red", she asked her father to rename her when she was 12 years old, specifying she wanted "a name with a military ring to it." He suggested "Jung", which means "martial affairs."

The Cultural Revolution

Like many of her peers, Chang chose to become a Red Guard at the age of 14, during the early years of the Cultural Revolution. In Wild Swans she said she was "keen to do so", "thrilled by my red armband".[2] In her memoirs, Chang states that she refused to participate in the attacks on her teachers and other Chinese, and she left after a short period as she found the Red Guards too violent.

The failures of the Great Leap Forward had led her parents to oppose Mao Zedong's policies. They were targeted during the Cultural Revolution, as most high-ranking officials were. When Chang's father criticized Mao by name, Chang writes in Wild Swans that this exposed them to retaliation from Mao's supporters. Her parents were publicly humiliated — ink was poured over their heads, they were forced to wear placards denouncing them around their necks, kneel in gravel and to stand outside in the rain — followed by imprisonment, her father's treatment leading to lasting physical and mental illness. Their careers were destroyed, and her family was forced to leave their home.

Before her parents' denunciation and imprisonment, Chang had unquestioningly supported Mao and criticized herself for any momentary doubts.[3] But by the time of his death, her respect for Mao, she writes, had been destroyed. Chang wrote that when she heard he had died, she had to bury her head in the shoulder of another student to pretend she was grieving. She explained her change on the stance of Mao with the following comments:

The Chinese seemed to be mourning Mao in a heartfelt fashion. But I wondered how many of their tears were genuine. People had practiced acting to such a degree that they confused it with their true feelings. Weeping for Mao was perhaps just another programmed act in their programmed lives.[4]

Chang's depiction of the Chinese people as having been "programmed" by Maoism would ring forth in her subsequent writings.

Studying English

The disruption of the university system by the Red Guards led Chang, like most of her generation, away from the political maelstroms of the academy. Instead, she spent several years as a peasant, a barefoot doctor (a part-time peasant doctor), a steelworker and an electrician, though she received no formal training because of Mao's policy, which did not require formal instruction as a prerequisite for such work.

The universities were eventually re-opened and she gained a place at Sichuan University to study English, later becoming an assistant lecturer there. After Mao's death, she passed an exam which allowed her to study in the West, and her application to leave China was approved once her father was politically rehabilitated.

Academic background

She has also been awarded honorary doctorates from the University of Buckingham, the University of York, the University of Warwick, and the Open University. She lectured for some time at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, before retiring in the 1990s to concentrate on her writing

Mao: The Unknown Story, Chang's biography of Mao

Chang's latest work, a biography of Mao, was co-authored by her husband Jon Halliday and portrays Mao in an extremely negative light. The couple travelled all over the world to research the book which took 12 years to write.[8] They interviewed hundreds of people who had known Mao including George Bush, Sr., Henry Kissinger, and Tenzin Gyatso, the Dalai Lama.[8]

Amongst their criticism of Mao, Chang and Halliday argue that despite being born into a rich peasant family, he had little concern for the welfare of the Chinese peasantry. They hold Mao responsible for the famine resulting from the Great Leap Forward and claim that he exacerbated the famine by allowing the export of grain to continue when China did not have sufficient grain to feed its population. They also claim that Mao had many political opponents arrested and murdered, including some of his personal friends, and argue that he was a more tyrannical leader than had previously been thought.

Mao: The Unknown Story became a bestseller, with UK sales alone reaching 60,000 in six months.[9] Academics and commentators wrote reviews ranging from great praise[10] to serious criticism.[11] Professor Richard Baum said that it had to be "taken very seriously as the most thoroughly researched and richly documented piece of synthetic scholarship" on Mao.[12] On the other hand, The Sydney Morning Herald reported that while few commentators "disput[ed] the subject," "some of the world's most eminent scholars of modern Chinese history" had referred to the book as "a gross distortion of the records."[9][13]
 
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Historically speaking, when ever Korea got into deep poo poo, China always bailed them out.
I don't understand why Korean's view China with disdain and hate, Chinese have never invaded Korea and actually helped them every time they needed it.

Koreans actually don't hate China, extreme right-wingers excepted. The "Korean" here is actually a fake who can't speak even basic Korean. Kinda sad, really.
 
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@TruthSeeker,

Just so you know, 'Mao, the Unknown Story' may have won rave reviews from pundits in WSJ and other neocon-ish publications, but it's been pretty much discredited in academic circles. It's a work of extreme historical revisionism made by a woman who (rightly) has many grievances against Mao. It's a shame because her first work, Wild Swans, was a really good account of the horrors of the Cultural Revolution, but she evidently couldn't follow it up and she let her psychological baggage get to her.

If you want a good account of China's role in the Korean War, fly2012 has already recommended Kissinger's 'On China', which is one of the most authoritative publications to have come out. The consensus academic opinion is that Kim was a zealous nationalist and he orchestrated the invasion, albeit having informed Stalin and Mao first.
 
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@TruthSeeker,

Just so you know, 'Mao, the Unknown Story' may have won rave reviews from pundits in WSJ and other neocon-ish publications, but it's been pretty much discredited in academic circles.

The "academic circles" that you rely upon to discredit this Mao biography are certainly as biased as may be Jung Chang. Western academics who specialize in China are beholden to the PRC for access in order to carry out their studies. They kowtow to the PRC line in order to preserve their rice bowls. I have not yet seen any "academic" who has gone down into the second level detail provided by Jung Chang in her footnotes to disprove her facts, her interpretations or her analysis of Mao actions and motivations. The so-called "academics" just say: "We don't believe her. She has an ax to grind." But no factual rebuttal is offered. I think it is highly likely that Jung Chang's picture of Mao is the truest one we will ever have. Certainly no official biography conjured up by the PRC can be anything but propaganda. As we all know, Mao, and the PRC he created, were masters of the lie told forcefully and with conviction. But lies nonetheless.
 
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Mao manipulated North Korea into starting the Korean War and then held up the armistice agreement for two years, to the detriment of North Korea. North Korea did not want to start the Korean War, but Mao decided it was in his interest to provoke the war so that the USA's response would threaten the Soviet interests in the area. That gave Mao the leverage he needed to finally get Stalin to assist the PRC in developing nuclear weapons, something Stalin had refused to do before 1950. Then, Mao sent thousands of formerly Kuomintang soldiers, who had been captured in the Chinese Civil War, into the Korean War as canon fodder to be chewed up by the UN forces. Thousands of these former Koumintang soldiers were captured and held as prisoners by the UN forces in South Korea. The Korean War Armistice was then delayed for two years because Mao demanded that these soldiers be repatriated to the PRC, so that he could execute the survivors. However, the UN forces refused to send them back, instead honoring their plea to be repatriated to Taiwan. The Korean War was fought entirely for the purposes of Mao's China, at great cost to both the North and South Korean peoples. The Kim family knows the truth about China's treatment of North Korea, i.e., as a vassal state, with subordinate interests. Hence, his death bed warning.


In April 1950 Kim Il-sung travelled to Moscow and secured Stalin's support for a policy to unify Korea under his authority. Although agreeing with the invasion of South Korea in principle, Stalin refused to become directly involved in Kim's plans, and advised Kim to enlist Chinese support instead. In May 1950 Kim visited Beijing, and succeeded in gaining Mao's endorsement. At the time, Mao's support for Kim was largely political (he was contemplating the invasions[citation needed] of Taiwan and Tibet), and was unaware of Kim's precise intentions or the timing of Kim's attack. When the Korean war broke out, the Chinese were in the process of demobilizing half of the PLA's 5.6 million soldiers.[64]

Korean War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Please don't let your distaste of one man blinds you from see part of history as everyone else see. Your dependence of one book also narrows your scope of been fair. Unless you can cite other neutral sources you'll the only one with the view 'Mao manipulated North Korea into starting the Korean War'
 
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The "academic circles" that you rely upon to discredit this Mao biography are certainly as biased as may be Jung Chang. Western academics who specialize in China are beholden to the PRC for access in order to carry out their studies. They kowtow to the PRC line in order to preserve their rice bowls. I have not yet seen any "academic" who has gone down into the second level detail provided by Jung Chang in her footnotes to disprove her facts, her interpretations or her analysis of Mao actions and motivations. The so-called "academics" just say: "We don't believe her. She has an ax to grind." But no factual rebuttal is offered. I think it is highly likely that Jung Chang's picture of Mao is the truest one we will ever have. Certainly no official biography conjured up by the PRC can be anything but propaganda. As we all know, Mao, and the PRC he created, were masters of the lie told forcefully and with conviction. But lies nonetheless.

Really? Western academics need the PRC to bankroll them and pay the rent? Now you're just being a conspiracy theorist. If you can't trust western academics living in your precious free and transparent democracies, then who can you trust?

Professor Andrew Nathan of Columbia University wrote a comprehensive rebuttal to the book, and no, his argument isn't only, "well she has an ax to grind":

Andrew Nathan reviews

Professor Jonathan Spence of Yale University wrote a more concise rebuttal in the form of a review:

Portrait of a Monster by Jonathan D. Spence | The New York Review of Books

That's only the tip of the iceberg. Universities with good Sinology departments have been overwhelmingly hostile to the book.

FYI, academics can't dismiss ideas merely on the grounds of "I don't believe it". I've noticed that contempt for academia (putting academics in scare quotes... seriously?) is part of a wider current of anti-intellectualism in your posts. Is that a Christian thing? Are you one of those people who bιtch about "radical liberal professors"?
 
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Really? Western academics need the PRC to bankroll them and pay the rent? Now you're just being a conspiracy theorist. If you can't trust western academics living in your precious free and transparent democracies, then who can you trust?

Professor Andrew Nathan of Columbia University wrote a comprehensive rebuttal to the book, and no, his argument isn't only, "well she has an ax to grind":

Andrew Nathan reviews

Professor Jonathan Spence of Yale University wrote a more concise rebuttal in the form of a review:

Portrait of a Monster by Jonathan D. Spence | The New York Review of Books

That's only the tip of the iceberg. Universities with good Sinology departments have been overwhelmingly hostile to the book.

FYI, academics can't dismiss ideas merely on the grounds of "I don't believe it". I've noticed that contempt for academia (putting academics in scare quotes... seriously?) is part of a wider current of anti-intellectualism in your posts. Is that a Christian thing? Are you one of those people who bιtch about "radical liberal professors"?

believe it or not, he actually has a PhD in physics from the 70's.
 
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Haha, really?

I always thought pdf was a place for young people who think they know how to run everything but have no power to vent and blow off steam while they make their way through the real world. Old people should be spending the golden years of their lives relaxing on Thai beaches with child hookers. What a crappy way to spend your last years.
 
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If you want a good account of China's role in the Korean War, fly2012 has already recommended Kissinger's 'On China', which is one of the most authoritative publications to have come out. The consensus academic opinion is that Kim was a zealous nationalist and he orchestrated the invasion, albeit having informed Stalin and Mao first.
More often than not, those who 'recommend' books have not read them...

Amazon.com: On China (9781594202711): Henry Kissinger: Books
Chapter 5

Triangular Diplomacy and the Korean War

Kim's presentation apparently shook Mao sufficiently that he ended the meeting early and ordered Zhou Enlai to cable Moscow requesting an "urgent answer" and "personal clarification" from Stalin. The next day the reply arrived from Moscow, with Stalin again shifting the onus back to Mao. The cable explained that

n his talks with the Korean comrades, [Stalin] and his friends...agreed with the Koreans regarding the plan to move toward reunification. In this regard a qualification was made, that the issue should be decided finally by the Chinese and Korean comrades together, and in case of disagreement by the Chinese comrades the decision on the issue should be postponed pending further discussion.

This, of course, place the blame for vetoing the project entirely on Mao. Further disassociating himself from the outcome (and providing Kim with an additional opportunity for exaggeration and misrepresentation), Stalin preempted a return telegram from Beijing by explaining that "[t]he Korean comrades can tell you the details of the conversation."

No records of Mao and Kim's subsequent conversation have yet been made available. Kim returned to Pyongyang on May 16 with Mao's blessing for an invasion of South Korea -- or at least that is how he described it to Moscow. Mao may well have also calculated that acquiescence in the conquest of South Korea might establish a premise for Soviet military assistance for a subsequent Chinese attack on Taiwan. If so, it was a grievous miscalculation. Because even had the United States stood aloof from the conquest of South Korea, American public opinion would not have allowed the Truman administration to ignore another Communist move in the Taiwan Strait.

Ten years later, Moscow and Beijing still could not agree on which side had actually given Kim the final green light to launch his invasion. Meeting in Bucharest in June 1960, Khrushchev, who was by then Soviet General Secretary, insisted to the Chinese Politburo member Peng Zhen that "if Mao Zedong had not agreed, Stalin would not have done what he did." Peng retorted that this was "totally wrong" and that "Mao Zedong was against the war...t was Stalin who agreed."

The two communist giants thus slid into a war without addressing the global implications should Kim Il-sung's and Stalin's optimistic forecasts prove to be erroneous. Once the United States entered the war, they would be forced to consider them.

Kim shrewdly manipulated both Stalin and Mao into a war that each did not wanted unless the other agreed to said war. In the process, each tried to outmaneuver the other into being the first to bless Kim's desire for war, thereby anticipating a potential blame that can be foisted upon the other and a blame that both knew was very real if the venture fail.
 
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A review cited above by Raphael:

Jade and Plastic
by Andrew Nathan

Mao: The Unknown Story by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday
Cape, 814 pp, £25.00, June 2005, ISBN 0 224 07126 2

"Chang and Halliday’s white-hot fury no doubt represents the unpublished and anonymous Chinese sources that they have used. More authentically than the officially licensed propaganda, these as yet subterranean opinions reflect the current evaluation of Mao within the Party as well as outside. This book can thus be read as a report on the crumbling of the Mao myth, as well as a bombshell aimed at destroying that myth. That the Chinese are getting rid of their Mao myth is welcome. But more needs to take its place than a simple personalisation of blame."


Chang and Halliday's Reply to Nathan:

Letters
Vol. 27 No. 24 · 15 December 2005

From Jung Chang & Jon Halliday
Andrew Nathan’s general criticisms of our book, Mao: The Unknown Story, rest largely on misrepresentations and distortion, especially of our use of sources (LRB, 17 November). The following are some key examples.

1. Nathan asserts that the sources we cite do not say the Chinese Communist Party was founded in 1920, but ‘merely confirm that early Communist cells’ were formed in that year. In fact, describing how the Party was set up by the Russians (‘born’) in 1920, both the (authoritative) sources we cite use the term Chinese Communist Party for the organisation as it was in that year. Nathan claims we ‘think [the date] important because Mao wasn’t in Shanghai in 1920’. On the contrary, we explicitly say that Mao was in Shanghai in 1920, a fact which is well known.

2. Nathan accuses us of ‘distorting’ our sources regarding the battle of Tucheng on the Long March, a battle initiated by Mao. According to him, the sources we cite say Tucheng was ‘a victory’. But none of our seven sources calls it a victory. Among the sources we cite is Mao himself, who twice described it as a ‘defeat’.

3. Nathan claims that we base our interpretation of how the Red Army was allowed by Chiang Kai-shek to escape at the beginning of the Long March on ‘one fugitive piece of evidence’. In fact, a glance at our notes would show 26 written sources, including Chiang’s orders for troop deployments when he knew the Reds were escaping.

4. Nathan distorts our use of the evidence showing that what has been touted as the most famous battle on the Long March, at the Dadu Bridge, never took place. He asserts that our ‘key piece of evidence is an interview’ with a 93-year-old. He ignores our seven written sources, including a contemporary Red Army publication, and Nationalist cables unequivocally showing that there were no troops at the bridge. He also chooses to ignore our statement that ‘the strongest evidence … is that there were no battle casualties.’

5. Nathan charges us with making ‘false claims’ about Mao having planned the border war with India in late 1962 ‘for some time’. The official Chinese history of the war shows Mao doing exactly this (from May 1962). He also writes that ‘according to their own source’ – singular, implying we have only one source – Khrushchev did not horse-trade with Mao in the lead-up to the Cuban Missile Crisis. We cite five written sources, the key one being Zhang Dequn (not Liu Xiao), who details the horse-trading.

6. According to Nathan, we have only one, uncheckable (‘unpublished’) source for a speech about coups by Lin Biao at the start of the Cultural Revolution in 1966. In fact, we cite three written sources, including the standard English-language source. The one classified source we cite is given a full reference.

7. Nathan says we make a ‘string of assertions’ about Mao’s treatment of Liu Shaoqi in detention in 1967-69, alleging that what we say is based solely on two interviews. In fact, our main source is an authoritative written one, by Huang Zheng. We ascribe to each interviewee only one very specific piece of information.

8. Nathan claims that we ‘misreport’ our source on the issue of whether a meeting between Peng Zhen, the mayor of Beijing, and the disgraced ex-defence minister Peng Dehuai in 1966 was held ‘in secret’. Nathan asserts that this was not the case, yet himself acknowledges that the source we cite states that the man who arranged the meeting (Sichuan boss Li Jingquan) agreed not to report it to Beijing. By Chinese Communist standards, this was an act of the utmost secrecy, as it involved visiting Mao’s top detainee (Peng Dehuai) without Mao’s knowledge. Nothing could be more secret. Nathan’s rendering of this episode shows a failure to understand how the Chinese Communist system worked.

9. Nathan faults us for ‘tak[ing] what Mao says literally, even his well-known outrageous statements that famine and nuclear warfare were no big deal’. He suggests we are missing ‘humour or irony’ in Mao’s remarks. It is dismaying that Nathan believes it right to brush off such vital evidence from the horse’s mouth. These statements represented Mao’s policies, which led to the deaths of tens of millions of Chinese.

10. Nathan claims that many of our discoveries ‘come from sources that cannot be checked’. This simply is not true. A survey of our notes should show that the vast majority of our major discoveries are based on documentary sources, and can be checked – provided one does a little work. To prove his ‘uncheckable’ point, Nathan cites two unpublished documents: the findings about the poisoning of Mao’s rival Wang Ming, and a conversation Mao had with Japanese Communists about Indonesia. In the first case, perhaps Nathan could look at Wang Ming’s papers in Russia, where we pursued the leads which got us to the document. And in the second case, as we state in our text, the source was the Japanese Communist Party, whose contact details are in the public domain.
 
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