Killing India’s hidden ‘Cold Start’ strategy

[deckingraj]

Psyops is only successful if your target isn't on to you. Otherwise he turns the tables and uses your psyops for his own benefit. As Pakistan is doing.

And the worst part is, India can't even deny it now. It would look like a monumental fool if it came out and said, "there is no CSD and there never was." Pakistan would just shrug it off.

That is up to Pakistan to shrug it off or not. I would say don't. As far as denial is concerned then help me out here...Give me an official source which says CSD is/was our doctorine??? If we never acknowledged it then how come denial is required. The only official response that we have is - CSD is not an official doctorine..

And if it turns out that CSD is real, Pakistan is still doing the right thing. Either way, we win.

Good for you...

 

[Xeric]

Deck talking with you now to me it seems like as if i am having the same meal three times a day. So i will just pick points that would require a response and skip the remainder;

Is this how you correct someone by saying you are not clear. Xeric make up your mind. Either correct me or cut the crap...

They say never correct your enemy when he is making a mistake. You get the point, right?

With doctorines like CSD one cannot relax and think "well there cannot be full-fledge war" so lets modernize in contrast with economy.

^^ Well by saying this you unwillingly accepted that CSD is a failure indeed. If i understand the CSD correctly i can sum up that the entire CSD revolves around one 'assumption' and that would be; Pakistan's nuclear threshold would not be crossed during the execution of CSD. Now if that doesnt happen, there's no fun in playing CS

So there's nothing bad in working our various contingencies in relation CSD, but then showing sheer disrespect to CSD (by planning from the outset; 'what if a full fledged war/nukes exchange?') was not expected out the mighty CSD.

That is why you will find even an average Indian ready to convert LOC into borders. B/w since you are not able to take rest of the kashmir from us can i infer that Pak is nothing against India??? What kind of stupid argument is that???


So no more Kashmir is our Atoot Ang, NA of Pakistan are also part of J&K, AK and Siachen should also be included in Kashmir talks??

Though we all know that indians today are more than happy in maintaining the status quo but then it reminds me of an old story which goes like this;

'Back in the old days there was some shopkeeper who sold cloth. One day some other guy came to him to buy a complete bundle/roll of a particular expensive type of cloth and after having it selected lied to the owner that he had paid for the roll, which infact he hadnt. And argument followed and the case aggravated,thereon the matter was taken to the court. After an exhaustive debate the judge was unable to decide whom the roll actually belonged to as both the parties didnt have any witness. And it was then tha judge came up with an idea. He announced that as the real owner cannot be fully ascertained so he has decided that the roll should be divided into two halves and given to both the claimants. On the real owner was frustrated and showed concerns (as he was loosing half of his product for nothing) but the lair was quite happy (as he was gaining half of the roll with a mere lie). This display of emotion was picked by the judge and he then immediately ordered the liar to be jailed and the roll to be handed back to the real owner'

i am not sure if you enjoyed the tale but i am quite sure that you are getting the idea behind it

Off topic but that's the Kashmir issue and the status quo bee ess in short.


Now you are behaving really naive. If you believe all that then i cannot help. In fact being an adversary i will love you to belive it....

May be next time i should also quote links?


You are telling me that you have increased your defence budget by 30% to fight with TTP???? OK i believe you..lets cut the crap now....

And you didnt know it, right?

No wonder you were trying to fool others, boy.

War in whatever form should only be the last option.....We have given diplomacy a chance this time and may be in your false ego you are not able to see the damage that we have done to you but fact will not change...Also we have made it ample clear that any more such attack will mean war...now what part is not clear to you???

So you accept that amateur decisions were made by your hierarchy?

And as for the damages, well labeling us as a state sponsor of terrorism didnt work for you. You still couldnt prove that the attacks had Pakistani establishment's (military or civilian) hand in it. You got JuD banned, voila! You proved that the attacks had origins inside Pakistan, Bravo!, but still we it was not enough to get the world term as a terrorist state. We were not slapped with sanctions, nor did anybody asked us to 'stop playing a bada$$'. Yes, terrorist heavens, Pakistan needs to dismantle its terrorist networks etc etc has been said quite often. But who doesnt know we have lawlessness in our Tribal Regions? And the West has not forgotten that they had a big hand in promoting Jihad there. So you see, it was not exactly a 'new' tag. We still didnt go inside N.Wazirstan and are still meeting the demands as we take out those guys who would/can hurt us while keeping the trump card with us


Pakistan was churning out better GDP growth than India in early years of her independence....It is sanctions and your love for Jihaad that did you...anyhow i am not trying to belittle pakistan here however this is one conflict that you cannot win, period. If last 63 years of struggle and yet no success cannot wake you then what can i do.....

We were churning better GDP in Musharraf's era also, but that's not the point. We may not overtake the indian growth, thats again is not the point. Whether we can carryon with the maintenance of a large military against india is the point of concern indeed. So if floods, earthquakes and WoT couldn't cut our defence budget, we can sustain the wishful likes of CSD. And oh yes, you already agreed that the 25-30% hike was for the war in the west.


As said before we can afford it, so yes Pakistan is nothing but a nuisance for us. Also i would appreciate if you can suggest how exactly what was a U turn...

So no more Akhund Bharat, Pakistan was torn out of us and we will take it back etc etc bee ess? i am glad we were able to 'convert' this mentality quite soon enough. Shouldnt we be celebrating this as a victory, just asking? You declaring Pakistan as a nuisance may it be because you dont want a war with Pakistan as it would hurt your growing economy or was it because you left Pakistan's destruction as a bad-job, for us that's an achievement.


however it is definitely causing lot of discomfort across the border...




Hello...start reading the post before making these imaginary accusations...How many times i have to say that official version is we deny CSD but all the recent acquisitions and planned one's suggests that it is very much a doctorine. As far as my personal stand i have clearly said that official denial was only diplomacy...It is very much there and work is going on...


^^^ You are still confused.


Now will Pak be able to cope with it, only time will tell...My point for the 100th time, CSD will put lot of strain on your budget...

Also allow me to complete my century, my 100th point that you people dont know a tosh about how CSD has affected Pakistan (even if it had affected us at the first place). Now please dont act Gubbi and post rupeenews



You will end up defaulting if they pull out...
We didnt till now despite of the earthquake, floods, CSD, Limited and Two Front Wars, more earthquakes and WoT, i dont what more evil would that be which would finally give your dream a reality.


If you still have not realized the long term strategic relations between India and US then you better should stop calling yourself think tank..
The relationship between the US and india is not a rocket science, containment of China, a huge market for the US, more jobs and stuff and a few others. But then you miss the fact that the US wouldnt be creating a drastic imbalance in our part of the world. Atleast not till the time it is stuck up in Afg. Some other facts like the geo-strategic location of Pakistan, Pakistan sharing land borders with the most rogue country in the world, Pakistan providing an outlet to CARs' oil, Pakistan's relations with China etc etc are a few points that may require some pondering on your behalf. An appetizer: Obama's support to India's UNSC bid not at Pak expense: US - The Times of India



What imbalance??? Are you assuming here??? Where was this imbalance worries when you were under sanctions??? They did it after 65 when we were getting armed by Russia and they did not bother. ...........................................................one chose to ignore writing on the wall then i am sorry, cannot help.....Please don't put too much hope on this impabalance thingi....You have paid in the past and there is high probablity you will end up paying even more dearly....

i'll again relate this with what i usually say. Let's talk tangibles, we'll see when india gets the perm seat in the SC. As for the nuclear deal, well what happened when China came in to fill in void thus created? And i hope you know that in case of the nuclear deal between the US and india Pakistan was compensated via aid and weaponry which india so much wants not to be used against her. Moreover what you quoted cannot be termed as imbalances exactly, a drastic imbal would be india getting seat in SC, US accepting Kashmir as india's integral part, the US asking Pakistan directly to stop 'exporting terrorism inside india', the US NOT conveying Pakistan's concerns (as it did in case of CSD) to india etc etc.



Sorry i will always pray that time don't come...However you can always join the jihadi pigs and try your hands....

Why should i join the skunk$ if i can do the same proudly in Siachen, Kashmir and Tribal Areas?


Do you think Pakistan will budge against US pressure and will not retaliate??? Now if you with so much dependency on them will not stop then what made you think India will???

The question will die its own death, rather this question would not even arise. The more pertinent question would be; would india even go for a preemptive strike against Pakistan, would the US allow it to happen? You may feel free to think otherwise, but shaking the the entire spectrum that too when the US is active in Afg, i dont think so.


another mumbai and New Delhi will be compelled to react...Have no confusion about it...

This tactics has already failed twice. Man, you people need to think another way to excuse an attack against Pakistan.


I know this that another terror attack on India and your desire to meet us before you shed away Khakhi will come true...

i dont agree. What i believe is that i would remain in Khaki but your guys would not be in olive drabs rather i would have to face them in shalwar kameez hiding somewhere deep in Khost.

 

[Windjammer]

Cold Start, Hot Pursuits , Surgical Strikes etc. were terminologies friviously introduced by Indians merely for public consumption, just as was the term India Shining, however an Indian Top Brass went on record to admit that such doctrine can never be implemented against Pakistan," Since it has professional armed forces, who know how to shoot back". As for Shining India, that was another leaf out of the Chinese book, who once had the motif, Shining Shanghai .

 

[deckingraj]

Deck talking with you now to me it seems like as if i am having the same meal three times a day. So i will just pick points that would require a response and skip the remainder;

Feling is mutual. Had you chosen to stick to the point instead of long stories we might have not ended up in page long posts...I do see you again have put in stories so i will ignore them and reply to only relevant point...

They say never correct your enemy when he is making a mistake. You get the point, right?

In short you are someone who thinks he is the think tank but don't even know that when you enter into a discussion forum then either you correct the person whom you are talking with or you agree to their POV...If one is not interested in either of those then one keeps his nose off the conversation....Next time i would expect you to make it ample clear what are you doing on this thread.....

^^ Well by saying this you unwillingly accepted that CSD is a failure indeed.

Duh...how the hell you infer that????

If i understand the CSD correctly i can sum up that the entire CSD revolves around one 'assumption' and that would be; Pakistan's nuclear threshold would not be crossed during the execution of CSD. Now if that doesnt happen, there's no fun in playing CS

Yes you are right...The biggest assumption of CSD is that pak nuclear threshold should not cross. This is the risk that political class will have to take if they choose CSD. Is this news to you???

So there's nothing bad in working our various contingencies in relation CSD, but then showing sheer disrespect to CSD (by planning from the outset; 'what if a full fledged war/nukes exchange?') was not expected out the mighty CSD.

I am sorry i did not get the message. Can you be more clear please??? CSD is meant to punish Pakistan with the assumption that nuclear threshold will not reach. if it reaches then next contingency plan will kick in...Not sure what you are trying to say???

So no more Kashmir is our Atoot Ang, NA of Pakistan are also part of J&K, AK and Siachen should also be included in Kashmir talks??

Duh...what are you smoking dude??? Are you desparately trying to make me look wrong??? Look our official stand is Kashmir is our integral part. However becuase we feel that status quo is in our favor we are fine in converting LOC into border. Now may i ask what part is not clear to you??? In fact if one is practical then only possible solution is to convert LOC into IB...anyways lets keel the jingoism on and converse....

Though we all know that indians today are more than happy in maintaining the status quo but then it reminds me of an old story which goes like this;

'Back in the old days there was some shopkeeper who sold cloth. One day some other guy came to him to buy a complete bundle/roll of a particular expensive type of cloth and after having it selected lied to the owner that he had paid for the roll, which infact he hadnt. And argument followed and the case aggravated,thereon the matter was taken to the court. After an exhaustive debate the judge was unable to decide whom the roll actually belonged to as both the parties didnt have any witness. And it was then tha judge came up with an idea. He announced that as the real owner cannot be fully ascertained so he has decided that the roll should be divided into two halves and given to both the claimants. On the real owner was frustrated and showed concerns (as he was loosing half of his product for nothing) but the lair was quite happy (as he was gaining half of the roll with a mere lie). This display of emotion was picked by the judge and he then immediately ordered the liar to be jailed and the roll to be handed back to the real owner'

i am not sure if you enjoyed the tale but i am quite sure that you are getting the idea behind it

Off topic but that's the Kashmir issue and the status quo bee ess in short.

Hahaha funny story....but only for kids...Talk like a think tank not like a kid...To me the thief is you...For you its me...Now either we can keep on saying Lier Lier your pants on Fire or talk like grown ups...I chose the later...

May be next time i should also quote links?

Yes please, it will help...

And you didnt know it, right?

Nopes, i did not...However if you are convinced that 30% of Pak defence budget is for fighting with TTP then i have nothing more to add on this topic..You are welcome to believe that....

No wonder you were trying to fool others, boy.

Talk about you...Leave others to judge by themselves....

So you accept that amateur decisions were made by your hierarchy?

What??? what amateur decision?? Hey either talk straight or stop talking...

And as for the damages, well labeling us as a state sponsor of terrorism didnt work for you. You still couldnt prove that the attacks had Pakistani establishment's (military or civilian) hand in it.

Tell me honestly you think that there has been no damage done to Pak by India's diplomacy???? Becuase we could not achieve our ultimate goal of labeling you as terrorist nation does that mean no other damage has been done???

You got JuD banned, voila! You proved that the attacks had origins inside Pakistan, Bravo!, but still we it was not enough to get the world term as a terrorist state. We were not slapped with sanctions, nor did anybody asked us to 'stop playing a bada$$'. Yes, terrorist heavens, Pakistan needs to dismantle its terrorist networks etc etc has been said quite often. But who doesnt know we have lawlessness in our Tribal Regions? And the West has not forgotten that they had a big hand in promoting Jihad there. So you see, it was not exactly a 'new' tag. We still didnt go inside N.Wazirstan and are still meeting the demands as we take out those guys who would/can hurt us while keeping the trump card with us

Hahah...you can do a better job man...India has nothing to do with your N. Waziristan operations...We don't give two hoots about it. All we are interested is in Kashmiri groops like LET, HUD etc. We got them banned way back in 2003 so let's not talk about it...Let's talk specifically about post Mumbai....I wrote this for another poster so let me copy paste here for you..

May i ask what was your govt. immediate stand on Kasab and other pigs??? Now may i ask what is their stand now??? Do you see some diplomacy working??? As far as i know 6 people have been detained by your govt and a case is going on against them. Now may i ask how many times such things have happened in the past??? Is there any country in the world that is not saying Mumbai Culprits should be brought to Justice by Pak. How many countries were accusing you as safe heavens for terrorist activities before??? I am sorry if you are thinking that diplomatic offensive is like calling the home minister and slapping him in public. Anyhow if you honestly think that diplomacy has not worked against you then to be quite frank i don't know how to make you see the obvious...

We were churning better GDP in Musharraf's era also, but that's not the point.

What??? That's exactly the point....Even after having better GDP growth than India on various occassion look where you guys are....If this is not because of your animosity with India, your love for Jihad then what else it is???? .

We may not overtake the indian growth, thats again is not the point.

Yes that's again the point...You cannot overtake India...This so called bleed india by thousand cuts is not something you can pull through...Anyways let me concentrate on CSD for now..

Whether we can carryon with the maintenance of a large military against india is the point of concern indeed. So if floods, earthquakes and WoT couldn't cut our defence budget, we can sustain the wishful likes of CSD. And oh yes, you already agreed that the 25-30% hike was for the war in the west.

This is just wishful thinking...can't help it...

So no more Akhund Bharat,

Not sure from where you have read the definition of Akhund BHarad....Tell me a single action by India in past 63 years where we have tried to overtake Pakistan??? This BS is nothing but wet-dreams of some think tank across the border...

Pakistan was torn out of us and we will take it back etc etc bee ess? i am glad we were able to 'convert' this mentality quite soon enough.

You are delusioned man....

Shouldnt we be celebrating this as a victory, just asking? You declaring Pakistan as a nuisance may it be because you dont want a war with Pakistan as it would hurt your growing economy or was it because you left Pakistan's destruction as a bad-job, for us that's an achievement.

Any single instance when we tried to overtake Pakistan??? So any reason you are living with this BS??? Is this what they teach you in military????

^^^ You are still confused.

Either remove the confusion or else cut the crap...

Also allow me to complete my century, my 100th point that you people dont know a tosh about how CSD has affected Pakistan (even if it had affected us at the first place). Now please dont act Gubbi and post rupeenews

Why should i post anything. This is plane logic, which you want to ignore, so can't help...

We didnt till now despite of the earthquake, floods, CSD, Limited and Two Front Wars, more earthquakes and WoT, i dont what more evil would that be which would finally give your dream a reality.

Clearly shows you don't know an iota about economics...Since you will not believe me so ask some of your breathren who are well versed with economics...It is the WB which has kept your economy afloat so far...The last think Pak would want is to default....Now read my comment again and then reply...

The relationship between the US and india is not a rocket science, containment of China, a huge market for the US, more jobs and stuff and a few others. But then you miss the fact that the US wouldnt be creating a drastic imbalance in our part of the world. Atleast not till the time it is stuck up in Afg. Some other facts like the geo-strategic location of Pakistan, Pakistan sharing land borders with the most rogue country in the world, Pakistan providing an outlet to CARs' oil, Pakistan's relations with China etc etc are a few points that may require some pondering on your behalf. An appetizer: Obama's support to India's UNSC bid not at Pak expense: US - The Times of India

May i ask did your geography changed after USSR collapsed??? Was all of this not true then??? B/W i liked that you do trust TOI....Anyways as said this don't keep too much hope on this imbalance thingi...As long as they need pak in AF yes US is going to be sensitive to your needs, however since India is long term strategic partner they will have to be sensitive to us...This is simple logic which no one can deny....So my advice just throw your "US will not create Imbalance" out of window...

i'll again relate this with what i usually say. Let's talk tangibles,

Yes lets talk about it...

we'll see when india gets the perm seat in the SC.As for the nuclear deal, well what happened when China came in to fill in void thus created?

What??? I am disappointed by your pathetic comment. Aren't we talking about US will not allow Imbalance in this region??? Where the hell China came from??? B/W they have shown their reservations on the issue...Simply suggest how much they care about imbalance...

And i hope you know that in case of the nuclear deal between the US and india Pakistan was compensated via aid and weaponry which india so much wants not to be used against her.

Hahaha...Keep trying dude...Though i was told that this was in return for your role in WOT...and Do i need to remind you of how many times they have repeated that all this weapons have stings attached to it??? So please tell how are they not letting imbalance occur??? How many F-16 block 52 they have sanctioned for you??? And how many block 60 they were ready to offer India??? Open your eyes Xeric...I know they need you right now but understand the changing world...As said India has raised the bars....you don't want to accept it then i cannot help...

Moreover what you quoted cannot be termed as imbalances exactly, a drastic imbal would be india getting seat in SC,

What?? Do you even know that even if we become permamnent member of UNSC we cannot undo anything on Kashmir??? UNSC seat has no adverse effects for Pak...Anyways off topic...

US accepting Kashmir as india's integral part,

Hahhaah...are you really a think tank??? May i humbly ask what does Pak want from US viz-a-viz Kashmir??? However what do they do??? Simply what India wants i.e don't poke your nose in our internal matter....Mush about the imbalance harp...

the US asking Pakistan directly to stop 'exporting terrorism inside india',

Man...Just listen to Obama's speech in Indian parliament...I am sorry if your expectation is that Obama will come and personally slap your PM to convey that Pakistan should not export terrorism inside India....So once again imbalance harp down the drain...

the US NOT conveying Pakistan's concerns (as it did in case of CSD) to india etc etc.

Excuse me??? CSD is hurting US interests because Pak is using it as bargaining tool...When something hits only your interest and then US comes and talk to us then use that example...For example - Solution of Kashmir is not directly hitting US interests...And you very well know their stand on it....Dude look at the contracts we have signed with them...Look at the defence items that we are buying from them...Xeric wake up man..wake up

Why should i join the skunk$ if i can do the same proudly in Siachen, Kashmir and Tribal Areas?

But it was you who wanted to meet our soldiers, no???

The question will die its own death, rather this question would not even arise. The more pertinent question would be; would india even go for a preemptive strike against Pakistan, would the US allow it to happen? You may feel free to think otherwise, but shaking the the entire spectrum that too when the US is active in Afg, i dont think so.

Not a satisfactoy answer...There is a limit to which US can stop India....The way it is unthinkable that in case of pre-emptive strike US will be able to stop Pakistan why are you not saying the same for India....As said India will be forced to act...If you think India is pawn in US hands then i am sorry you are mistaken..There is a limit to the influence that US has on us...

This tactics has already failed twice. Man, you people need to think another way to excuse an attack against Pakistan.

Twice??? Care to elaborate a bit more on the occassions...

i dont agree. What i believe is that i would remain in Khaki but your guys would not be in olive drabs rather i would have to face them in shalwar kameez hiding somewhere deep in Khost.

That is what you think....Reality is way different than the logical bubble you possess...

 

[Rafi]

In Conclusion, csd was a total dude, india is incapable or unable or both - to risk a nuclear exchange. Also two nuclear powers have never had a direct full scale war.

 

[wali87]

Feling is mutual. Had you chosen to stick to the point instead of long stories we might have not ended up in page long posts...I do see you again have put in stories so i will ignore them and reply to only relevant point...


In short you are someone who thinks he is the think tank but don't even know that when you enter into a discussion forum then either you correct the person whom you are talking with or you agree to their POV...If one is not interested in either of those then one keeps his nose off the conversation....Next time i would expect you to make it ample clear what are you doing on this thread.....



Duh...how the hell you infer that????


Yes you are right...The biggest assumption of CSD is that pak nuclear threshold should not cross. This is the risk that political class will have to take if they choose CSD. Is this news to you???


I am sorry i did not get the message. Can you be more clear please??? CSD is meant to punish Pakistan with the assumption that nuclear threshold will not reach. if it reaches then next contingency plan will kick in...Not sure what you are trying to say???



Duh...what are you smoking dude??? Are you desparately trying to make me look wrong??? Look our official stand is Kashmir is our integral part. However becuase we feel that status quo is in our favor we are fine in converting LOC into border. Now may i ask what part is not clear to you??? In fact if one is practical then only possible solution is to convert LOC into IB...anyways lets keel the jingoism on and converse....




Hahaha funny story....but only for kids...Talk like a think tank not like a kid...To me the thief is you...For you its me...Now either we can keep on saying Lier Lier your pants on Fire or talk like grown ups...I chose the later...


Yes please, it will help...


Nopes, i did not...However if you are convinced that 30% of Pak defence budget is for fighting with TTP then i have nothing more to add on this topic..You are welcome to believe that....


Talk about you...Leave others to judge by themselves....



What??? what amateur decision?? Hey either talk straight or stop talking...


Tell me honestly you think that there has been no damage done to Pak by India's diplomacy???? Becuase we could not achieve our ultimate goal of labeling you as terrorist nation does that mean no other damage has been done???



Hahah...you can do a better job man...India has nothing to do with your N. Waziristan operations...We don't give two hoots about it. All we are interested is in Kashmiri groops like LET, HUD etc. We got them banned way back in 2003 so let's not talk about it...Let's talk specifically about post Mumbai....I wrote this for another poster so let me copy paste here for you..

May i ask what was your govt. immediate stand on Kasab and other pigs??? Now may i ask what is their stand now??? Do you see some diplomacy working??? As far as i know 6 people have been detained by your govt and a case is going on against them. Now may i ask how many times such things have happened in the past??? Is there any country in the world that is not saying Mumbai Culprits should be brought to Justice by Pak. How many countries were accusing you as safe heavens for terrorist activities before??? I am sorry if you are thinking that diplomatic offensive is like calling the home minister and slapping him in public. Anyhow if you honestly think that diplomacy has not worked against you then to be quite frank i don't know how to make you see the obvious...



What??? That's exactly the point....Even after having better GDP growth than India on various occassion look where you guys are....If this is not because of your animosity with India, your love for Jihad then what else it is???? .


Yes that's again the point...You cannot overtake India...This so called bleed india by thousand cuts is not something you can pull through...Anyways let me concentrate on CSD for now..


This is just wishful thinking...can't help it...


Not sure from where you have read the definition of Akhund BHarad....Tell me a single action by India in past 63 years where we have tried to overtake Pakistan??? This BS is nothing but wet-dreams of some think tank across the border...


You are delusioned man....


Any single instance when we tried to overtake Pakistan??? So any reason you are living with this BS??? Is this what they teach you in military????




Either remove the confusion or else cut the crap...


Why should i post anything. This is plane logic, which you want to ignore, so can't help...


Clearly shows you don't know an iota about economics...Since you will not believe me so ask some of your breathren who are well versed with economics...It is the WB which has kept your economy afloat so far...The last think Pak would want is to default....Now read my comment again and then reply...



May i ask did your geography changed after USSR collapsed??? Was all of this not true then??? B/W i liked that you do trust TOI....Anyways as said this don't keep too much hope on this imbalance thingi...As long as they need pak in AF yes US is going to be sensitive to your needs, however since India is long term strategic partner they will have to be sensitive to us...This is simple logic which no one can deny....So my advice just throw your "US will not create Imbalance" out of window...



Yes lets talk about it...



What??? I am disappointed by your pathetic comment. Aren't we talking about US will not allow Imbalance in this region??? Where the hell China came from??? B/W they have shown their reservations on the issue...Simply suggest how much they care about imbalance...


Hahaha...Keep trying dude...Though i was told that this was in return for your role in WOT...and Do i need to remind you of how many times they have repeated that all this weapons have stings attached to it??? So please tell how are they not letting imbalance occur??? How many F-16 block 52 they have sanctioned for you??? And how many block 60 they were ready to offer India??? Open your eyes Xeric...I know they need you right now but understand the changing world...As said India has raised the bars....you don't want to accept it then i cannot help...


What?? Do you even know that even if we become permamnent member of UNSC we cannot undo anything on Kashmir??? UNSC seat has no adverse effects for Pak...Anyways off topic...


Hahhaah...are you really a think tank??? May i humbly ask what does Pak want from US viz-a-viz Kashmir??? However what do they do??? Simply what India wants i.e don't poke your nose in our internal matter....Mush about the imbalance harp...


Man...Just listen to Obama's speech in Indian parliament...I am sorry if your expectation is that Obama will come and personally slap your PM to convey that Pakistan should not export terrorism inside India....So once again imbalance harp down the drain...


Excuse me??? CSD is hurting US interests because Pak is using it as bargaining tool...When something hits only your interest and then US comes and talk to us then use that example...For example - Solution of Kashmir is not directly hitting US interests...And you very well know their stand on it....Dude look at the contracts we have signed with them...Look at the defence items that we are buying from them...Xeric wake up man..wake up



But it was you who wanted to meet our soldiers, no???



Not a satisfactoy answer...There is a limit to which US can stop India....The way it is unthinkable that in case of pre-emptive strike US will be able to stop Pakistan why are you not saying the same for India....As said India will be forced to act...If you think India is pawn in US hands then i am sorry you are mistaken..There is a limit to the influence that US has on us...



Twice??? Care to elaborate a bit more on the occassions...



That is what you think....Reality is way different than the logical bubble you possess...

YOU HAVE ALOOOOTTTAAA TIME ON YOUR HANDSS MAN... ! Thats all im gonna say..lol

 

[deckingraj]

YOU HAVE ALOOOOTTTAAA TIME ON YOUR HANDSS MAN... ! Thats all im gonna say..lol

How about you who is reading all this and replying .... Anyhow the problem is that i am committed to the discussion, now cannot back off. So yes page long posts hurt but then backing off is also not an option ....b/w if you have some view point then do share...one liners are not going to help for sure!!!

 

[wali87]

How about you who is reading all this and replying .... Anyhow the problem is that i am committed to the discussion, now cannot back off. So yes page long posts hurt but then backing off is also not an option ....b/w if you have some view point then do share...one liners are not going to help for sure!!!

I bet my one liner post touched u deep down inside n gave u atleast a lil feeling of embarrassment.. that u did indeed get TOO EMOTIONAL with the post.. lol anyway I wish i could reply to your post but i am a final year undergrad.. and i'd rather contribute those 800 words to my essay lol..

Good way of discouraging the posters though... Itnee laambee kardo post ke agla dekh ke haaar hee maan jayee.. haha
Yet another "STRATEGY" by the Indians .. perhaps "THE LONG POST STRATEGY"

I bet half of the people dont even read your post simeply due to the size of it..

QUALITY not QUANTITY my friend.. you seem to be still atattched to the Soviet notion.


cheers.

 

[A1Kaid]

@Xeric

Respected brother,

Why do you waste so much time arguing with "the enemy"? You are a Pakistani soldier your job is to kill the enemy not debate them. Now, I do agree you may also debate and argue at times as you are free to express your views, but this "debate" is excessive and not leading anywhere is it?

 

[deckingraj]

I bet my one liner post touched u deep down inside n gave u atleast a lil feeling of embarrassment.. that u did indeed get TOO EMOTIONAL with the post.. lol anyway I wish i could reply to your post but i am a final year undergrad.. and i'd rather contribute those 800 words to my essay lol..

Good way of discouraging the posters though... Itnee laambee kardo post ke agla dekh ke haaar hee maan jayee.. haha
Yet another "STRATEGY" by the Indians .. perhaps "THE LONG POST STRATEGY"

I bet half of the people dont even read your post simeply due to the size of it..

QUALITY not QUANTITY my friend.. you seem to be still atattched to the Soviet notion.


cheers.

Lot of emotions and empty chest thumping in your post...However failed to see the size of the post to which i replied...anyhow since you are a little young i can understand the adrenaline flow...b/w did you count those 800 words..lol...

Also since you are final year under-grad student i do believe what you are doing is correct.....stay away from such debates and concentrate on your studies...as far as oldies like us is concerned then look at the volume of posts on multiple threads by various members..it will give you an inclination how much this forum is part of daily lives of people...Anyways my advice kid, don't waste time here and go do the reading...will help you big time in your life....

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

what subjects you taking bro?

 

[sensenreason]

Cold Start, Hot Pursuits , Surgical Strikes etc. were terminologies friviously introduced by Indians merely for public consumption, just as was the term India Shining, however an Indian Top Brass went on record to admit that such doctrine can never be implemented against Pakistan," Since it has professional armed forces, who know how to shoot back". As for Shining India, that was another leaf out of the Chinese book, who once had the motif, Shining Shanghai .

Links please to prove your allegations.

 

[Tin Man]

Where pakistan went wrong...

Thought i'd put this into perspective.
I am a new forum member and i have been avidly reading the entries from various users with different viewpoints. I think the geo political scenario at the present is much different than what it was in the 50’s or the 60’s, when both rival states had equal footing and did not possess any tactical or economic superiority over the other. The situation is much different as a new age dawns.

In the light of truth i think we can safely assume and ….im sure the pakistani counterparts would agree, that india is at a much stronger position economically and militarily and is now a force to be reckoned with in the international scene. Why hasnt pakistan who used to counter indian advancements with advancements of their own failed to reach the same status as india in the 21st century?

Lets examine shall we?…

India was in a retrogressive path up until the 90’s. Infact the situation was so terrible that there was a real chance pakistan could launch an invasion plan and succeed. The indians were swamped with embargos from foreign states save russia. Techonology transfer to india was considered unthinkable to the americans. In fact India remained the underdog until the 90’s and swamped through with the sole support of few nations such as russia. Whereas pakistan revelled in the comfort provided by their all powerful ally the “United States of America”. Tech transfers, military support etc were all given to pakistan without reserve.

After the 90’s India, under the guidance of then financial minister Manmohan Sigh launched a series of economic reforms that transformed the nation from a backwater swamp state to a formidable economic force by the dawn of 21st century. The power of these economic reforms propelled india to a new age. Reforms and the backing of the billion strong indian population gave india the boost it was looking for.

Pakistan however resorted to underhanded tactics trying to destabilize india instead of trying to reform their own economy in response. Instead of launching economic reforms of their own they resorted to printing fake indian currency, lobbying in the foreign law making institutions to further hinder india, etc etc. Infact so much effort was spent on trying to “contain” india that the pakistani leaders forgot to look to their nations well being. They found comfort in magnifying the “indian threat” instead of simply trying to ressurect theuir heavily burdened economy.

A major fault with the pakistani establishment is that the military is the real factor controlling the nation. A true democracy was never allowed to flourish under the pakistani system. Every once in a while one crack-pot general would decide the system is falliable and take over. Sending the country in a spiralling descent into anarchy and poverty. Once he starts stabilising the country another nut job would decide to take over. The cycle repeats over and over again. Pakistan could never attain stability as a democratic entity. And lack of stability resulted in a stagnant economy where investing was considered very risky, not because of stock fluctuations…but because of the fear of losing everything as a result of some national crisis.

When assailed with neuclear embargos and trade restrictions, india struggled. But at the same time the indians made it a point to develop their own indigenous systems so they would be able to perform their needs without having to rely on others. When super computers were denied…they made their own. When nuclear technology transfer was prohibited, they created their own fast breeder reactors. When space technology was denied , they launched their own space programmes.

What does pakistan do when denied? Think about it. All they have done is whine in the international stage about how they were being denied . Pakistan instead of trying to bridge relations, tries further to destabilise its rising neighbour all the while ignoring their own internal struggles.

There is a stark contrast between the indian preception of pakistan and the pakistan preception of india. All the while pakistani leadership spreads propoganda about the “indian threat” and plants seeds of hate and insecurity in the pakistani youth about the non-existent threat; the indian youth dont even care. They have hopes, dreams and aspirations, and petty rivalaries are beneath them. As Pakistanis seem to assume; there are no “anti pakistan” speecehes being made all over india. Infiact there is a growing sympathy to the pakistani struggles. Infact the one thime pakistan was coming under the flood, prayer grups were being organised in various parts of india to pray for the victims of the flood. Undeniably both the RAW and the ISI tries to deter one another. But the difference is, the whole pakistani national effort is spent on trying to contain “india”. Whereas in India only a small effort is being expended on this regard, while the bulk is being set to reforming the national infrastucture, economy and education.

Think hard and deep before flamming me for this post but in the light of truth, these are facts and undeniable.

Regards
Styx.

 

[roach]

Where pakistan went wrong...

Thought i'd put this into perspective.
I am a new forum member and i have been avidly reading the entries from various users with different viewpoints. I think the geo political scenario at the present is much different than what it was in the 50’s or the 60’s, when both rival states had equal footing and did not possess any tactical or economic superiority over the other. The situation is much different as a new age dawns.

In the light of truth i think we can safely assume and ….im sure the pakistani counterparts would agree, that india is at a much stronger position economically and militarily and is now a force to be reckoned with in the international scene. Why hasnt pakistan who used to counter indian advancements with advancements of their own failed to reach the same status as india in the 21st century?

Lets examine shall we?…

India was in a retrogressive path up until the 90’s. Infact the situation was so terrible that there was a real chance pakistan could launch an invasion plan and succeed. The indians were swamped with embargos from foreign states save russia. Techonology transfer to india was considered unthinkable to the americans. In fact India remained the underdog until the 90’s and swamped through with the sole support of few nations such as russia. Whereas pakistan revelled in the comfort provided by their all powerful ally the “United States of America”. Tech transfers, military support etc were all given to pakistan without reserve.

After the 90’s India, under the guidance of then financial minister Manmohan Sigh launched a series of economic reforms that transformed the nation from a backwater swamp state to a formidable economic force by the dawn of 21st century. The power of these economic reforms propelled india to a new age. Reforms and the backing of the billion strong indian population gave india the boost it was looking for.

Pakistan however resorted to underhanded tactics trying to destabilize india instead of trying to reform their own economy in response. Instead of launching economic reforms of their own they resorted to printing fake indian currency, lobbying in the foreign law making institutions to further hinder india, etc etc. Infact so much effort was spent on trying to “contain” india that the pakistani leaders forgot to look to their nations well being. They found comfort in magnifying the “indian threat” instead of simply trying to ressurect theuir heavily burdened economy.

A major fault with the pakistani establishment is that the military is the real factor controlling the nation. A true democracy was never allowed to flourish under the pakistani system. Every once in a while one crack-pot general would decide the system is falliable and take over. Sending the country in a spiralling descent into anarchy and poverty. Once he starts stabilising the country another nut job would decide to take over. The cycle repeats over and over again. Pakistan could never attain stability as a democratic entity. And lack of stability resulted in a stagnant economy where investing was considered very risky, not because of stock fluctuations…but because of the fear of losing everything as a result of some national crisis.

When assailed with neuclear embargos and trade restrictions, india struggled. But at the same time the indians made it a point to develop their own indigenous systems so they would be able to perform their needs without having to rely on others. When super computers were denied…they made their own. When nuclear technology transfer was prohibited, they created their own fast breeder reactors. When space technology was denied , they launched their own space programmes.

What does pakistan do when denied? Think about it. All they have done is whine in the international stage about how they were being denied . Pakistan instead of trying to bridge relations, tries further to destabilise its rising neighbour all the while ignoring their own internal struggles.

There is a stark contrast between the indian preception of pakistan and the pakistan preception of india. All the while pakistani leadership spreads propoganda about the “indian threat” and plants seeds of hate and insecurity in the pakistani youth about the non-existent threat; the indian youth dont even care. They have hopes, dreams and aspirations, and petty rivalaries are beneath them. As Pakistanis seem to assume; there are no “anti pakistan” speecehes being made all over india. Infiact there is a growing sympathy to the pakistani struggles. Infact the one thime pakistan was coming under the flood, prayer grups were being organised in various parts of india to pray for the victims of the flood. Undeniably both the RAW and the ISI tries to deter one another. But the difference is, the whole pakistani national effort is spent on trying to contain “india”. Whereas in India only a small effort is being expended on this regard, while the bulk is being set to reforming the national infrastucture, economy and education.

Think hard and deep before flamming me for this post but in the light of truth, these are facts and undeniable.

Regards
Styx.

Wow dude, you write well.

All good points. I feel that most Pakistanis realize all or most of this, especially the part where the PA needs the Indian threat to hold on to the reins. But not many will admit it.

 

[Tin Man]

Most dont. Most citizens are genuinely concerned about an imminent "attack", "invasion", and "annexation" from india.Even if the rest of the political machine fails, the propoganda machine rages on. Some of these theories and ridiculous but quite capable of inciting fear in the hearts of an honest illiterate. The truth is there is very little sense in invading pakistan. Annexing a nation full of enemies would be a tactical blunder.