KFX/IFX News and Development

[Indos]

I believe that was the original plan... Out of the planned 5 prototypes, 1 unit will be sent to us / PTDI for further testing and customizations to suit TNI AUs needs... AU has actually send pilots to Test Pilot Training school for this purpose... However with the ongoing renegotiations we'll have to see if the plan holds...

Base on what I read, the prototype that will be for Indonesia is assembled in Indonesia. Maybe we also have started producing some components in that prototype stage and I think it is quite logic since we will produce some components for all KFX/IFX so Indonesia Aerospace made in components must be tested as well before mass production (if the program is successful and Indonesia is still inside the program). There will be some Korean that will help the process.

 

[Whizzack]

Base on what I read, the prototype that will be for Indonesia is assembled in Indonesia. Maybe we also have started producing some components in that prototype stage and I think it is quite logic since we will produce some components for all KFX/IFX so Indonesia Aerospace made in components must be tested as well before mass production (if the program is successful and Indonesia is still inside the program). There will be some Korean that will help the process.

If that's the case then even better... I feel we would at least do the assembly of the prototype locally... I wonder whether the South Korean KFX delegation are still in Indonesia and what are the progress of the talks so far...

 

[Whizzack]

Good news! Hopefully it turns out to be true...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1311442198672543744

However considering we are shouldering 20% of the development cost, I think it's just fair that we will also be producing 20% of the parts for all production KFX/IFX and not just for IFX... let's see after a formal decision has been announced..

 

[Indos]

If that's the case then even better... I feel we would at least do the assembly of the prototype locally... I wonder whether the South Korean KFX delegation are still in Indonesia and what are the progress of the talks so far...

Yup, manufacturing some KFX/IFX parts (base on work shared deal), doing assembling and integration work in Indonesia for IFX prototype (fifh KFX planed prototypes) is very importance before mass production is commenced in 2026 (if the program is successful and Indonesia is still inside the program).

The rolling out of IFX prototype in our facility can be other big thing that can benefit main party and I believe will be publicized heavily by both mainstream and non-mainstream media. It can be a long and continuous report since the manufacturing starts, we can see how Korean play it during this first prototype manufacturing stage, it is a very good PR content for current administration and their political supporters if they can play it well.

PDI-P party can get huge benefit if they want to make some political score despite the program has been started by previous administration, but common public will likely to believe that it is another Jokowi big achievement, while more knowledgeable folks will likely to have more respect on the current administration due to the program continuation.

Talking about the current renegotiation, I dont have any connection in high rank defense ministry official, but I believe Jokowi will be involved personally as well, I dont think Prabowo can decide the fate of the program alone. So Jokowi close ring will also have some say on the program future.

Good news! Hopefully it turns out to be true...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1311442198672543744

However considering we are shouldering 20% of the development cost, I think it's just fair that we will also be producing 20% of the parts for all production KFX/IFX and not just for IFX... let's see after a formal decision has been announced..

Thats a definately a good news if it is true and I believe if we stay at 20 % it means there will be some consession given to Indonesia regarding to TOT.

Thats wright, it is not making any sense at all if we dont make 20 % of the parts for all KFX/IFX since we invest 20 % of the cost and contribute on the design and R & D since 2010.

 

[UMNOPutra]

Is this news accurate ?

https://politik.rmol.id/read/2020/1...i-i-mengutip-prabowo-di-rapat-akan-dihentikan

 

[Indos]

Is this news is accurate ?

https://politik.rmol.id/read/2020/1...i-i-mengutip-prabowo-di-rapat-akan-dihentikan

The news seems accurate suggesting that Prabowo think that Indonesia doesnt benefit much on the program and he considers Indonesia to pull out from the program. Despite so there is no mention over when the meeting took place (which is the time Prabowo spoke to the parliament), is it before or after the renegotiation that happened last month?

Actually there is no official statement from our government about the result of last renegotiation (September 2020), so we need to wait for some other time as both parties (Indonesia and Korea) dont talk much after that meeting.

 

[Indos]

OK look like the meeting with parliament happened in 9 September which was around 15 days before the renegotiation with Korean took place, so it is clear that Prabowo himself is not fond to continue the program which is actually inline with his deputy previous statement in July 2020 (CNBC Indonesia), but we dont know the result of renegotiation in the 25-29 of September yet as both parties remain silent.

The main problem is not money according to his deputy. Indonesia itself has 2 future projects like N 245 and R 80 airplane that needs a lot of designer/engineers in which we know more than 100 designers are absorbed by KFX/IFX project so far, so I think Indonesia want to make sure they get enough benefit from the program as Indonesia sacrifice its own program for the sake of KFX/IFX program in term of our human power. Not to mention the remaining unpaid 1.8 billion USD also enough to make both N 245 and R 80 passenger plane program completes where these civilian program have more possibility to create profits and expand production rate than fighter plane.

So I hope Korean can accept some of Indonesia demand like in TOT for subsystem (could be AESA radars), more workshare during mass production stage and IP right or reduced financial participation into 15 % (as what Indonesia wants) in order to keep Indonesia inside the program. Actually I previously assumed Prabowo as someone that part of KFX/IFX continuation supporter.

Recent Prabowo meeting with the parliament, 9 September

5 Jam Rapat Tertutup, Ini yang Dibahas Prabowo dengan Komisi I DPR - Tribunnews.com

Komisi I DPR RI menggelar rapat kerja dengan Menteri Pertahanan Prabowo Subianto, Rabu (9/9/2020).

www.tribunnews.com

 

[dr.knowhow]

OK look like the meeting with parliament happened in 9 September which was around 15 days before the renegotiation with Korean took place, so it is clear that Prabowo himself is not fond to continue the program which is actually inline with his deputy previous statement in July 2020 (CNBC Indonesia), but we dont know the result of renegotiation in the 25-29 of September yet as both parties remain silent.

The main problem is not money according to his deputy. Indonesia itself has 2 future projects like N 245 and R 80 airplane that needs a lot of designer/engineers in which we know more than 100 designers are absorbed by KFX/IFX project so far, so I think Indonesia want to make sure they get enough benefit from the program as Indonesia sacrifice its own program for the sake of KFX/IFX program in term of our human power. Not to mention the remaining unpaid 1.8 billion USD also enough to make both N 245 and R 80 passenger plane program completes where these civilian program have more possibility to create profits and expand production rate than fighter plane.

So I hope Korean can accept some of Indonesia demand like in TOT for subsystem (could be AESA radars), more workshare during mass production stage and IP right or reduced financial participation into 15 % (as what Indonesia wants) in order to keep Indonesia inside the program. Actually I previously assumed Prabowo as someone that part of KFX/IFX continuation supporter.

Recent Prabowo meeting with the parliament, 9 September

5 Jam Rapat Tertutup, Ini yang Dibahas Prabowo dengan Komisi I DPR - Tribunnews.com

Komisi I DPR RI menggelar rapat kerja dengan Menteri Pertahanan Prabowo Subianto, Rabu (9/9/2020).

www.tribunnews.com

You've got to consider what Indonesia could offer Korea. There are mainly 2 reasons Korea needed and needs Indonesia in KF-X Program.

Firstly, given all of the political opposition KF-X program faced pre Park administration, having an international partner was a huge incentive for the program to go through. The need for this political incentive is now gone as KF-X has progressed so much that it has basically become impossible to kill. KF-X is half of ROKAF post 2030 at this point. Having Indonesia or not doesn't matter concerning politics anymorw.

Second reason is having a larger production number and operator pool. Surely 120 compared to 170 is quite a huge difference. Unit cost and maintenance would both be affected, thus the prospects for selling these fighters oversees as well. Then again ROKAF exactly isn't physically limited to just procurring 120 airframes. That's the basic plan and there are already talks about procurring even more than just that before replacing KF-16s. On top of that there is block 3 which would likely replace the KF-16s post 2035. So it's more of a concern compared to Indonesia's contribution but isn't unsolvable.

And that contribution itself being delayed so much is not much of a great prospect for Indonesia. Part of Indonesia's contribution is used to pay the Indonesian engineers themselves as the man-cost is the biggest expenditure of any R&D program. KAI and RoK govn. were paying these bills before those 100 or so engineers went back due to Covid. Technological cobtribution from those Indonesian engineers are close to nothing and they are assigned to basic calculations of variables and solutions already suggested by Korean and LM engineers, thus non of them are even assigned in any critical avionics development in the first place. There isn't a single problem not having them at all, thus Indonesia's excuse of 'sacrificing their own R&D program' doesn't mean anyting to the Koreans.

Then again are $1.5 billion worth for Korea to hand over any advanced avionics tech to Indonesia? Not at all. Like I've said in one of my previous post here there hasn't been a single case where such ToT has happend in recent years. It took almost 15 years for Korea to get to this point of technological expertise to develop an airborne AESA radar and even longer for FC and EW suites among others. On top of that, what's Indonesia going to do with all these technologies? I'm not so sure if they will be able to swallow and digest all these techs they are demanding from Korea. Many of these tech were developed/codeveloped by ETRI with 4G and 5G communication evolution in mind. Modern AESA and EW have lots of convergence with state of the art civilian communication technology so it made sense. Is that the case for Indonesia?

I do hope that the partnership continues and lowered contribution would be the best choice but 15% is just too much without reduced work-share to Indonesia. ToT of critical tech is just nonsense. I am also still doubtful about the quality of components if any are to be produced and be fitted in KF-X as well, given the quality of CN-235 aircrafts Korea received for both the ROKAF and CG. Cracked fuselage doesn't translate into any confidence.

To sum it up, Indonesia needs to acknowledge that they are not on the level of technology with which they would be able to sit on the driver's seat of the negotiation.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

You've got to consider what Indonesia could offer Korea. There are mainly 2 reasons Korea needed and needs Indonesia in KF-X Program.

Firstly, given all of the political opposition KF-X program faced pre Park administration, having an international partner was a huge incentive for the program to go through. The need for this political incentive is now gone as KF-X has progressed so much that it has basically become impossible to kill. KF-X is half of ROKAF post 2030 at this point. Having Indonesia or not doesn't matter concerning politics anymorw.

Second reason is having a larger production number and operator pool. Surely 120 compared to 170 is quite a huge difference. Unit cost and maintenance would both be affected, thus the prospects for selling these fighters oversees as well. Then again ROKAF exactly isn't physically limited to just procurring 120 airframes. That's the basic plan and there are already talks about procurring even more than just that before replacing KF-16s. On top of that there is block 3 which would likely replace the KF-16s post 2035. So it's more of a concern compared to Indonesia's contribution but isn't unsolvable.

And that contribution itself being delayed so much is not much of a great prospect for Indonesia. Part of Indonesia's contribution is used to pay the Indonesian engineers themselves as the man-cost is the biggest expenditure of any R&D program. KAI and RoK govn. were paying these bills before those 100 or so engineers went back due to Covid. Technological cobtribution from those Indonesian engineers are close to nothing and they are assigned to basic calculations of variables and solutions already suggested by Korean and LM engineers, thus non of them are even assigned in any critical avionics development in the first place. There isn't a single problem not having them at all, thus Indonesia's excuse of 'sacrificing their own R&D program' doesn't mean anyting to the Koreans.

Then again are $1.5 billion worth for Korea to hand over any advanced avionics tech to Indonesia? Not at all. Like I've said in one of my previous post here there hasn't been a single case where such ToT has happend in recent years. It took almost 15 years for Korea to get to this point of technological expertise to develop an airborne AESA radar and even longer for FC and EW suites among others. On top of that, what's Indonesia going to do with all these technologies? I'm not so sure if they will be able to swallow and digest all these techs they are demanding from Korea. Many of these tech were developed/codeveloped by ETRI with 4G and 5G communication evolution in mind. Modern AESA and EW have lots of convergence with state of the art civilian communication technology so it made sense. Is that the case for Indonesia?

I do hope that the partnership continues and lowered contribution would be the best choice but 15% is just too much without reduced work-share to Indonesia. ToT of critical tech is just nonsense. I am also still doubtful about the quality of components if any are to be produced and be fitted in KF-X as well, given the quality of CN-235 aircrafts Korea received for both the ROKAF and CG. Cracked fuselage doesn't translate into any confidence.

To sum it up, Indonesia needs to acknowledge that they are not on the level of technology with which they would be able to sit on the driver's seat of the negotiation.

Korea doesn't even give T of TOT to Indonesia for Aesa Radars and Gan modules.

How much money I do not have exact information Indonesia for KFX-IFX but putting even Turkey's overall R & D spends more than 1.5 billion dollars for the F35. Of course, these are Turkish licensed products (excluding mid-body).


It's also interesting to imagine a country that has never even produced mechanical radar could actually absorb such technology.

 

[Indos]

And that contribution itself being delayed so much is not much of a great prospect for Indonesia. Part of Indonesia's contribution is used to pay the Indonesian engineers themselves as the man-cost is the biggest expenditure of any R&D program. KAI and RoK govn. were paying these bills before those 100 or so engineers went back due to Covid. Technological contribution from those Indonesian engineers are close to nothing and they are assigned to basic calculations of variables and solutions already suggested by Korean and LM engineers, thus non of them are even assigned in any critical avionics development in the first place. There isn't a single problem not having them at all, thus Indonesia's excuse of 'sacrificing their own R&D program' doesn't mean anyting to the Koreans.

Before I answer this, I just want to make it clear here that it is only PT Dirgantara Indonesia that is involved on the program, so Indonesia contribution is solely on design, fuselage production, assembling and integration. Previous deal doesnt make other Indonesian companies specialized in other sector like electronics to be part of the program and thus they cannot get fund from the program if they undergo short of R&D for Indonesian IFX, something that some Indonesian have a bit resentment on it.

Many Korean on FB and Youtube actually said similar thing like you where Indonesian engineers contribution are close to nothing and you said that they are assigned to basic calculation that Korean and LM engineers suggested or in other mean under Korean and LM strict supervision. Well you guys need to give some prove on it since it sounds impossible for Indonesia which have already had many designed experiences to only conduct basic calculation on the program.

Once again, I want to emphasist it more. It is actually weird if Indonesian engineers are only doing basic design calculation since Indonesian engineers dont need KFX/IFX program to do something like that. Why not doing it for Indonesian own program like N 245 and R 80 while in the same time those program have more possibility to get profit and improve our production rate due to much lower investment cost, huge domestic market, and it is 100 % our own program so all production will be conducted in Indonesia Aerospace.

I will provide some respected source from people involves on the program to back my claims. Here I give you some of the examples :

1. Under a deal, Korean only want to get experienced Indonesian engineers whose minimal ages are 35 to participate on the program. So if Indonesia only do minor calculation why Korean forbid Indonesia to send our junior engineers with age around 22-26 years old because fresh graduates with some 1-2 years working experience in Indonesian aerospace I think will be able to do basic calculation under Korean/LM engineers supervision? Here I give the source coming from Deputy Defense Minister own statement:

Apa Kabar Proyek Jet Tempur Canggih RI Bareng Korsel?

Simak penjelasan Wakil Menteri Pertahanan (Wamenhan) Sakti Wahyu Trenggono.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

2. KAI and LM is only involved after 2015 while before that since 2010-December 2012 there was only ADD Korea and PT Dirgantara Indonesia conduct technology development phase. During that time they made many decisions regarding aircraft design and produce C 103 design that become the basic design of KFX/IFX before getting developed further into C 109 design which Indonesian engineers also got involved in it.

In this phase I believe only very senior engineers involved, including around 30 Indonesian engineers and aerospace experts from Bandung Institute of Technology. Detail design hasnt been started yet so they dont need to employ many designers/engineers at that stage so only few engineers/designers were working at that period.

I will give you some information taken by person involved in the development that suggest despite Korean is a senior partner on this program but the R&D process was conducted quite professionally and democratically where both Korean and Indonesian inputs are taken into consideration and some time Indonesian input that are selected over Korean input because Indonesian engineers can win the argument. I will post the article in my next post in order not to make this individual post too long.

3. Although there is LM participation since 2015 but we know LM is not an angel that will help the program 100 % considering KFX/IFX could be another competitor for F 35. No one wants to reveal all of their secrets, because of that it is crucial to get another opinion from Indonesian designers who also have many design experience (of course Korean also have many experience engineers on design but getting another opinion could be very valuable for the program success).

4. There is a technology where only Indonesian who has the expertise according to Head of the Indonesia Ministry of Defense's Research and Development Agency Anne Kusmayati,

Of the total workers of the two countries involved in the making of KF-X / IF-X, 30 percent are more from Indonesia and the majority of the rest are from South Korea. This is also the reason for making aircraft centered on Sacheon, not in Indonesia.

The proportion of more than 30 percent of Indonesian engineers involved in working on the KF-X / IF-X actually increased from the original amount of 20 percent. The addition of Indonesian workers occurred as time went by cultivation.

"It signifies that Indonesian engineers count on Korea. There is even a work package whose technology is only owned by Indonesians. He is a doctor from ITB (Bandung Institute of Technology), the only one who has inlight design capabilities. So Korea does not take Indonesia lightly, "Anne said.

Jet Tempur RI Buatan 'Sendiri' Mengangkasa 9 Tahun Lagi

Tak lebih dari 10 negara di muka bumi ini yang sungguh-sungguh bisa membuat pesawat tempur. Indonesia kini hendak masuk jajaran elite negara-negara itu.

www.cnnindonesia.com

5. Indonesia also calls very experience Indonesia engineers/designers that have worked in world class aerospace companies like Boeing and Airbus to contribute on KFX/IFX program and I think it is impossible that we call them only to be assigned for basic calculations like what you suggested. Actually I cannot provide the link here since I forgot where I get the information but I will try to search and put the link if I can find it. Just for information that in early 2000, Indonesian aerospace get financial difficulty that make many of the engineers left the company and works in Boeing, Airbus, and others.

6. Finally I put a senior Indonesian engineer who participates in the program and he is actually KFX/IFX project manager from Indonesia. He has extensive aerodynamic experience since he has worked in PT Dirgantara Indonesia since 1987. He definately has design experiences for CN 235 and NC212 development (CN 235 and NC 212 keeps getting developed until early 2000), N250, N2130, and N219, not to mention Indonesian engineers in PTDI during mid 1980 until 1995 also work in Boeing for some time due to our cooperation with them.

And it is only one senior engineer and we all dont know how many senior engineers that Indonesia assign on the KFX/IFX program but I believe among 30 Indonesian engineers participating since 2010 could be in majority are very senior ones since that stage is very crucial where the other 80 that comes later IMO are younger generation with 35-40 years old in average (since 35 is the minimum ages required by Korean for Indonesia) although they are all can be considered as senior engineers with 12-18 years of experiences.

So why do we even need to assign senior engineers/designers and even very senior ones for KFX/IFX program if what they do just doing a basic calculation like what you just said ?

You can find him through Google (Linkedin)
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• Heri Yansyah

Aerodynamics at Indonesian Aerospace Ltd.

• Bandung Area, West Java, Indonesia

Experience

Aerodynamics
Company Name
Indonesian Aerospace Ltd.
Dates Employed Apr 1987 – Present
Employment Duration 33 yrs 7 mos

 

[Indos]

Translation from Google translate:

February 6, 2014 (Angkasa/Space Magazine)

KFX / IFX program continued , Government Asked to Immediately Selecting Design

Korea was once considered Indonesia engineer do not understand about the design of a jet fighter. But the notion was quickly turned , when the Indonesian team describes the design and the various inputs. The Indonesian side also the one who finally managed to convince that the aircraft take-off weight of 50,000 pounds must .

Confirmation of the Parliament of South Korea on the resumption of the program KFX / IFX team warmly welcomed designers from Indonesia. They include asking both governments immediately call the engineers involved in preparing work that has been long overdue. They also want the governments of both countries to make sure one of the two designs that have been produced in the Technology Development phase for cultivation in the next phase .

"Program KFX / IFX is a multi - program years , costly, and involve various sectors and foreign partners. For that there must be a definite declaration on it goes. For Indonesia it is important to determine the financing schemes and their human resources planning, "said Dr Rais Zain, M. Eng , KFX / IFX Configuration Design Leader for Angkasa , in late January.

"In the near future Indonesia will also work on the N219 and R - 80. We do not have enough engineers to work three programs, especially KFX / IFX will take place until the 2020s. The government is expected to call home engineers who are now working abroad to come help the regeneration process. Outside there are approximately 200 people . If half of it can be returned to the country, it is enough to help, " added Rais who is also a lecturer at the Faculty of Aerospace Engineering ITB, Bandung.

As reported by the national media, the confirmation of the continuation of the program of making front - liner Korean - Indonesian fighter jets received by the Ministry of Defense on January 3, 2014. Notice is further announced Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro told reporters, Wednesday, January 8, 2014, on the sidelines of Rapim Kemenhan in Jakarta. Explanations related to exposure delivered weapon system procurement plans in the Strategic Plan II, 2015-2019.

The Indonesian government hopes the project of making the 4.5 generation fighter jet could be done because it would be a referral program to remove the dependence of the transfer of technology from other countries. Besides KFX / IFX, Indonesia is also pursuing a program of making submarines , warships, propellants , rockets, and tank size medium. For submarines, Indonesia is also cooperating with the same country.

Superior to the Su - 35Program KFX / IFX was stopped temporarily by Korea's new leader Park Geun - Hye end of 2012 after reviewing the state financially in the country. This prestigious project was worked on since the beginning of 2011, shortly after President Lee Myung - bak and President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono confirmed the bilateral cooperation in the defense field in Jakarta. From the Technology Development Phase that has been completed, a team of scientists has completed a number of conical design that later became two.

The two designs is a model of the stealth fighter jet -winning twin-engine air superiority with horizontally - tails in the back, and the other one is with canards on the front. "Each has consequences different financing and partners. Thus , it must first be decided which one is selected. It is important that when followed, all parties are ready to do it , "said Rais Zain , whose day-to- day lecturer at the Faculty of Engineering, Aerospace Engineering,ITB, Bandung.

As stated Wamenhan Sjafrie, Korean parliament has prepared 20 million U.S. dollars (temporary , Indonesia : $ 5 million) to continue this program in 2015. At that time , the team will go to the Engineering Manufacturing Development Phase. In addition must have a high thrust engine with a power to be able to fight in the air, the aircraft must also have weapons stored in the internal weapons bay , the data - link capable of randomizing communications, advanced radar target voters, and anti - jamming device.

The prototype is expected to finish by the end of the Strategic Plan II . Even if there are things that need to be criticized , it is a matter of operation requirements are much more determined the Korean Air Force . This was inevitable because the Korean bear 80 percent of the funding, and the country actually have a real enemy. This program is targeted to spawn a jet fighter with performance equivalent or superior to the opponent fighter jets which are the Sukhoi Su - 35.

Prerequisites itself dismissed the proposed counter designs KAI ( Korean Aerospace Industrie) recently, rather than to cut development costs are too great. In configuration ( see Space, December 2013 ), looks KFX type E is only one engine powered with weapons outside the radar sweep prone opponent.

Angkasa examine admiration of ADD ( Agency for Defense Development, Defence Research and Development Agency of Korea ) submitted to the Indonesian engineer team. Initially, the team assumes Korea really had no idea about the design of Indonesian fighter jets. However, the assumption was turned when Indonesian engineers began to describe the design and the various inputs to the design of Korea. The Indonesian side also who ultimately ensure that the aircraft must have a takeoff weight of 50,000 pounds.(A.Darmawan/Angkasa magazine).

http://www.angkasa.co.id/index.php/...tkan-pemerintah-diminta-segera-memilih-desain

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This is the most respected aerospace media in Indonesia but unfortunatelly they have erased that 2014 page but I have posted the translation in previous KFX/IFX thread in 2014.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/kf-x...of-south-korea-indonesia-images.182361/page-4

 

[Indos]

It's also interesting to imagine a country that has never even produced mechanical radar could actually absorb such technology.

I will give you some of Indonesian indigenous radars

1. Naval Radar made by Indonesian private owned electronics company

The Director is woman actually, Wiwiek Astuti

Indonesia equips frigates, corvette with stealth radars
Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
14 April 2014

The Indonesian Navy (Tentara Nasional Indonesia - Angkatan Laut: TNI-AL) will equip a total of four Ahmad Yani (Van Speijk)-class guided missile frigates and one Kapitan Pattimura (Parchim I)-class corvette with low-probability-of-intercept (LPI) naval radars.

The radars will be built by Indonesian naval sensor manufacturer PT Infra RCS, company officials told [i>IHS Jane's on 11 April.

The company describes its equipment, the IRCS LPI Radar, as a stealthy sea-based X-band (SBX) radar with frequency modulated continuous wave technology.

"It has a maximum power output of only 10 W, making it quiet and virtually invisible to radar warning receivers on enemy vessels", said Prihatno Susanto, Technical Advisor for the company. "This allows our warships to detect hostile surface combatants without being discovered".

The IRCS LPI Radar has an effective range of 24 n miles and is equipped with tracking software known as Maritime Tracking Aid that allows for automatic radar plotting aid functionality. The system's antenna rotates at 20 rpm and has a gain of about 30dB.

The radar is available as a stand-alone system but can also be integrated with a vessel's electronic chart display and information system (IRCS) and combat management system.

The vessels now equipped with the radar are the guided missile frigates KRI Ahmad Yani and KRI Abdul Halim Perdanakusuma. Both began upgrade works in December 2013. Undergoing the equipment fixture currently are similar vessels in class KRI Yos Sudarso , KRI Oswald Siahaan and the Kapitan Pattimura-class corvette KRI Sultan Taha .

Besides LPI naval radars, the company has also won a contract to equip Oswald Siahaan and Yos Sudarso with naval electronic support measures (ESM) systems that can detect electromagnetic emissions from electronic devices on enemy ships such as radar, communications equipment, jammers and missile targeting systems.

"The IRCS ESM has electronic intelligence (ELINT) capabilities that can pick up signals emitted by hostile warships from up to 90 n miles away via a passive radar", said Susanto. "Once these electromagnetic emissions are detected, a computer software that comes with the system will be able to identify, classify and pin-point the exact location of the source for commanders to take action."
The company has indicated that it is currently embarking on an effort to market both systems internationally.

Indonesia equips frigates, corvette with stealth radars - IHS Jane's 360

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2. 200 km 2 D surveilance radar developed by state owned electronics company, PT LEN Industry

Berita | PT Len Industri (Persero)

www.len.co.id

3. Passive radar, Bandung Institute of Technology (ITB)

4. SAR Radar Development. There is one Indonesian researcher, Prof Josaphat Tetuko Sumantri get funded by Japan to develop SAR Radar. He is still working for Indonesian government as researcher for SAR radar research in Bandung Institute of Technology and Professor in University of Indonesia. Here is the website and you can see some of his research

Josaphat Microwave Remote Sensing Laboratory (JMRSL) – Josaphat Laboratory

www.jmrsl.jp

Short Biodata
Josaphat was born in Bandung, Indonesia in 1970. He received the B.Eng. and M.Eng. Degrees in electrical and computer engineering (subsurface radar systems) from Kanazawa University, Japan, in 1995 and 1997, respectively, and the Ph.D. degree in artificial system sciences (applied radio wave and radar systems) from Chiba University, Japan, in 2002.

From 2002 to 2005, he was a Lecturer (Post-doctoral Fellowship Researcher) with the Center for Frontier Electronics and Photonics, Venture Business Laboratory, Chiba University, Japan. From 2005 to 2013, he was an Associate Professor (permanent staff) with the Center for Environmental Remote Sensing, Chiba University, where he is currently a Full Professor (permanent staff). He is Head Department of Environmental Remote Sensing and Head Division of Earth and Environmental Sciences, Graduate School of Integrated Science and Technology, Chiba University in 2019-2020.

His research interest are theoretically scattering microwave analysis and its applications in microwave (radar) remote sensing, especially synthetic aperture radar and subsurface radar (VLF), including InSAR, DInSAR and PS-InSAR, analysis and design of antennas for mobile satellite communications and microwave sensors, development of microwave sensors, including synthetic aperture radar (SAR) for unmanned aerial vehicle, aircraft, and microsatellite.

He published about 700 journal and conference papers, and tens book related wave analysis, SAR, and small antenna. He is General Chair of The 7th Asia-Pacific Conference on Synthetic Aperture Radar (APSAR 2021) at Bali, Indonesia and more than 200 Invited Talks and Lectures related synthetic aperture radar and its applications. He is co-leader of Working Group on Remote Sensing Instrumentation and Technologies for Unmanned Aerial Vehicles of IEEE GRSS, Technical Committee on Instrumentation and Future Technologies (IFT-TC).

He is member of international and domestic organizations, reviewer of journals, and organizations. He received many awards and research grants related his researches and studies, and promoted many students from around the world.and as a Visiting Lecturer/Professor in many Universities etc.

He manages Josaphat Microwave Remote Sensing Laboratory (JMRSL), Center for Environmental Remote Sensing (CEReS), Chiba University, Japan. His laboratory promotes the education and research to develop the internationally technologies and sciences on microwave remote sensing. He always encourages the undergraduate and postgraduate students to know the microwave phenomenons and to be familiar with the interaction between microwave and natural matters (i.e. vegetation, artificial materials, earth surface, snow), therefore they could develop original methods or sensor during studying in the courses.

Prof. Josaphat Tetuko Sri Sumantyo – Josaphat Microwave Remote Sensing Laboratory (JMRSL)

www.jmrsl.jp

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

I will give you some of Indonesian indigenous radars

1. Naval Radar made by Indonesian private owned electronics company

The Director is woman actually, Wiwiek Astuti

View attachment 677507

Indonesia equips frigates, corvette with stealth radars
Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
14 April 2014

The Indonesian Navy (Tentara Nasional Indonesia - Angkatan Laut: TNI-AL) will equip a total of four Ahmad Yani (Van Speijk)-class guided missile frigates and one Kapitan Pattimura (Parchim I)-class corvette with low-probability-of-intercept (LPI) naval radars.

The radars will be built by Indonesian naval sensor manufacturer PT Infra RCS, company officials told [i>IHS Jane's on 11 April.

The company describes its equipment, the IRCS LPI Radar, as a stealthy sea-based X-band (SBX) radar with frequency modulated continuous wave technology.

"It has a maximum power output of only 10 W, making it quiet and virtually invisible to radar warning receivers on enemy vessels", said Prihatno Susanto, Technical Advisor for the company. "This allows our warships to detect hostile surface combatants without being discovered".

The IRCS LPI Radar has an effective range of 24 n miles and is equipped with tracking software known as Maritime Tracking Aid that allows for automatic radar plotting aid functionality. The system's antenna rotates at 20 rpm and has a gain of about 30dB.

The radar is available as a stand-alone system but can also be integrated with a vessel's electronic chart display and information system (IRCS) and combat management system.

The vessels now equipped with the radar are the guided missile frigates KRI Ahmad Yani and KRI Abdul Halim Perdanakusuma. Both began upgrade works in December 2013. Undergoing the equipment fixture currently are similar vessels in class KRI Yos Sudarso , KRI Oswald Siahaan and the Kapitan Pattimura-class corvette KRI Sultan Taha .

Besides LPI naval radars, the company has also won a contract to equip Oswald Siahaan and Yos Sudarso with naval electronic support measures (ESM) systems that can detect electromagnetic emissions from electronic devices on enemy ships such as radar, communications equipment, jammers and missile targeting systems.

"The IRCS ESM has electronic intelligence (ELINT) capabilities that can pick up signals emitted by hostile warships from up to 90 n miles away via a passive radar", said Susanto. "Once these electromagnetic emissions are detected, a computer software that comes with the system will be able to identify, classify and pin-point the exact location of the source for commanders to take action."
The company has indicated that it is currently embarking on an effort to market both systems internationally.

Indonesia equips frigates, corvette with stealth radars - IHS Jane's 360

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2. 200 km 2 D surveilance radar developed by state owned electronics company, PT LEN Industry

View attachment 677477

Berita | PT Len Industri (Persero)

www.len.co.id

3. Passive radar, Bandung Institute of Technology

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4. SAR Radar Development. There is one Indonesian researcher, Prof Josaphat Tetuko Sumantri get funded by Japan to develop SAR Radar. He is still working for Indonesian government as researcher for SAR radar research in Bandung Institute of Technology and Professor in University of Indonesia. Here is the website and you can see some of his research

Josaphat Microwave Remote Sensing Laboratory (JMRSL) – Josaphat Laboratory

www.jmrsl.jp

Short Biodata
Josaphat was born in Bandung, Indonesia in 1970. He received the B.Eng. and M.Eng. Degrees in electrical and computer engineering (subsurface radar systems) from Kanazawa University, Japan, in 1995 and 1997, respectively, and the Ph.D. degree in artificial system sciences (applied radio wave and radar systems) from Chiba University, Japan, in 2002.

From 2002 to 2005, he was a Lecturer (Post-doctoral Fellowship Researcher) with the Center for Frontier Electronics and Photonics, Venture Business Laboratory, Chiba University, Japan. From 2005 to 2013, he was an Associate Professor (permanent staff) with the Center for Environmental Remote Sensing, Chiba University, where he is currently a Full Professor (permanent staff). He is Head Department of Environmental Remote Sensing and Head Division of Earth and Environmental Sciences, Graduate School of Integrated Science and Technology, Chiba University in 2019-2020.

His research interest are theoretically scattering microwave analysis and its applications in microwave (radar) remote sensing, especially synthetic aperture radar and subsurface radar (VLF), including InSAR, DInSAR and PS-InSAR, analysis and design of antennas for mobile satellite communications and microwave sensors, development of microwave sensors, including synthetic aperture radar (SAR) for unmanned aerial vehicle, aircraft, and microsatellite.

He published about 700 journal and conference papers, and tens book related wave analysis, SAR, and small antenna. He is General Chair of The 7th Asia-Pacific Conference on Synthetic Aperture Radar (APSAR 2021) at Bali, Indonesia and more than 200 Invited Talks and Lectures related synthetic aperture radar and its applications. He is co-leader of Working Group on Remote Sensing Instrumentation and Technologies for Unmanned Aerial Vehicles of IEEE GRSS, Technical Committee on Instrumentation and Future Technologies (IFT-TC).

He is member of international and domestic organizations, reviewer of journals, and organizations. He received many awards and research grants related his researches and studies, and promoted many students from around the world.and as a Visiting Lecturer/Professor in many Universities etc.

He manages Josaphat Microwave Remote Sensing Laboratory (JMRSL), Center for Environmental Remote Sensing (CEReS), Chiba University, Japan. His laboratory promotes the education and research to develop the internationally technologies and sciences on microwave remote sensing. He always encourages the undergraduate and postgraduate students to know the microwave phenomenons and to be familiar with the interaction between microwave and natural matters (i.e. vegetation, artificial materials, earth surface, snow), therefore they could develop original methods or sensor during studying in the courses.

Prof. Josaphat Tetuko Sri Sumantyo – Josaphat Microwave Remote Sensing Laboratory (JMRSL)

www.jmrsl.jp

I didn't know, I seen the radar photo you shared on another site, but I thought it was ordered from somewhere or ukraine and passed. I mean even any mini-instrument can do the job of making a 2d mechanical radar, which forces are actively used by them, and are there enough data libraries?

 

[Indos]

I didn't know, I seen the radar photo you shared on another site, but I thought it was ordered from somewhere or ukraine and passed. I mean even any mini-instrument can do the job of making a 2d mechanical radar, which forces are actively used by them, and are there enough data libraries?

Nope, those radars are indigenous.


Well unfortunately only the naval radar that I posted that have been used by Indonesian navy for our frigates and corvettes. The LEN surveilance radar and Bandung Institute of Technology (ITB) passive radar are both still in prototype stages.

LEN is currently trying to develop 3 D radars since our Armed force look like only want to use 3 D radar so their 2 D radar IMO is only for research purposes. LAPAN (Space Agency) has also developed a weather radar and it is still undergoing certification currently. Other state owned electronics company, PT INTI, also has made a naval and weather radar.

Actually we lacks of radar R&D program although some research and development are still exist.

 

[dr.knowhow]

Many Korean on FB and Youtube actually said similar thing like you where Indonesian engineers contribution are close to nothing and you said that they are assigned to basic calculation that Korean and LM engineers suggested or in other mean under Korean and LM strict supervision. Well you guys need to give some prove on it since it sounds impossible for Indonesia which have already had many designed experiences to only conduct basic calculation on the program.

Before I answer this, I just want to make it clear here that it is only PT Dirgantara Indonesia that is involved on the program, so Indonesia contribution is solely on design, fuselage production, assembling and integration. Previous deal doesnt make other Indonesian companies specialized in other sector like electronics to be part of the program and thus they cannot get fund from the program if they undergo short of R&D for Indonesian IFX, something that some Indonesian have a bit resentment on it.

Many Korean on FB and Youtube actually said similar thing like you where Indonesian engineers contribution are close to nothing and you said that they are assigned to basic calculation that Korean and LM engineers suggested or in other mean under Korean and LM strict supervision. Well you guys need to give some prove on it since it sounds impossible for Indonesia which have already had many designed experiences to only conduct basic calculation on the program.

Once again, I want to emphasist it more. It is actually weird if Indonesian engineers are only doing basic design calculation since Indonesian engineers dont need KFX/IFX program to do something like that. Why not doing it for Indonesian own program like N 245 and R 80 while in the same time those program have more possibility to get profit and improve our production rate due to much lower investment cost, huge domestic market, and it is 100 % our own program so all production will be conducted in Indonesia Aerospace.

I will provide some respected source from people involves on the program to back my claims. Here I give you some of the examples :

1. Under a deal, Korean only want to get experienced Indonesian engineers whose minimal ages are 35 to participate on the program. So if Indonesia only do minor calculation why Korean forbid Indonesia to send our junior engineers with age around 22-26 years old because fresh graduates with some 1-2 years working experience in Indonesian aerospace I think will be able to do basic calculation under Korean/LM engineers supervision? Here I give the source coming from Deputy Defense Minister own statement:

Apa Kabar Proyek Jet Tempur Canggih RI Bareng Korsel?

Simak penjelasan Wakil Menteri Pertahanan (Wamenhan) Sakti Wahyu Trenggono.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

2. KAI and LM is only involved after 2015 while before that since 2010-December 2012 there was only ADD Korea and PT Dirgantara Indonesia conduct technology development phase. During that time they made many decisions regarding aircraft design and produce C 103 design that become the basic design of KFX/IFX before getting developed further into C 109 design which Indonesian engineers also got involved in it.

In this phase I believe only very senior engineers involved, including around 30 Indonesian engineers and aerospace experts from Bandung Institute of Technology. Detail design hasnt been started yet so they dont need to employ many designers/engineers at that stage so only few engineers/designers were working at that period.

I will give you some information taken by person involved in the development that suggest despite Korean is a senior partner on this program but the R&D process was conducted quite professionally and democratically where both Korean and Indonesian inputs are taken into consideration and some time Indonesian input that are selected over Korean input because Indonesian engineers can win the argument. I will post the article in my next post in order not to make this individual post too long.

3. Although there is LM participation since 2015 but we know LM is not an angel that will help the program 100 % considering KFX/IFX could be another competitor for F 35. No one wants to reveal all of their secrets, because of that it is crucial to get another opinion from Indonesian designers who also have many design experience (of course Korean also have many experience engineers on design but getting another opinion could be very valuable for the program success).

4. There is a technology where only Indonesian who has the expertise according to Head of the Indonesia Ministry of Defense's Research and Development Agency Anne Kusmayati,

Of the total workers of the two countries involved in the making of KF-X / IF-X, 30 percent are more from Indonesia and the majority of the rest are from South Korea. This is also the reason for making aircraft centered on Sacheon, not in Indonesia.

The proportion of more than 30 percent of Indonesian engineers involved in working on the KF-X / IF-X actually increased from the original amount of 20 percent. The addition of Indonesian workers occurred as time went by cultivation.

"It signifies that Indonesian engineers count on Korea. There is even a work package whose technology is only owned by Indonesians. He is a doctor from ITB (Bandung Institute of Technology), the only one who has inlight design capabilities. So Korea does not take Indonesia lightly, "Anne said.

Jet Tempur RI Buatan 'Sendiri' Mengangkasa 9 Tahun Lagi

Tak lebih dari 10 negara di muka bumi ini yang sungguh-sungguh bisa membuat pesawat tempur. Indonesia kini hendak masuk jajaran elite negara-negara itu.

www.cnnindonesia.com

5. Indonesia also calls very experience Indonesia engineers/designers that have worked in world class aerospace companies like Boeing and Airbus to contribute on KFX/IFX program and I think it is impossible that we call them only to be assigned for basic calculations like what you suggested. Actually I cannot provide the link here since I forgot where I get the information but I will try to search and put the link if I can find it. Just for information that in early 2000, Indonesian aerospace get financial difficulty that make many of the engineers left the company and works in Boeing, Airbus, and others.

6. Finally I put a senior Indonesian engineer who participates in the program and he is actually KFX/IFX project manager from Indonesia. He has extensive aerodynamic experience since he has worked in PT Dirgantara Indonesia since 1987. He definately has design experiences for CN 235 and NC212 development (CN 235 and NC 212 keeps getting developed until early 2000), N250, N2130, and N219, not to mention Indonesian engineers in PTDI during mid 1980 until 1995 also work in Boeing for some time due to our cooperation with them.

And it is only one senior engineer and we all dont know how many senior engineers that Indonesia assign on the KFX/IFX program but I believe among 30 Indonesian engineers participating since 2010 could be in majority are very senior ones since that stage is very crucial where the other 80 that comes later IMO are younger generation with 35-40 years old in average (since 35 is the minimum ages required by Korean for Indonesia) although they are all can be considered as senior engineers with 12-18 years of experiences.

So why do we even need to assign senior engineers/designers and even very senior ones for KFX/IFX program if what they do just doing a basic calculation like what you just said ?

You can find him through Google (Linkedin)
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• Heri Yansyah

Aerodynamics at Indonesian Aerospace Ltd.

• Bandung Area, West Java, Indonesia

Experience
View attachment 677439
Aerodynamics
Company Name
Indonesian Aerospace Ltd.
Dates Employed Apr 1987 – Present
Employment Duration 33 yrs 7 mos

First off, thanks again for detailed information from Indonesia that is hard to get as a non-Indonesian. It surely enables me to consider these matters from other perspective.

Talking about the technical involvement of Indonesian engineers, my source - and presumably other Koreans citing such information in other websites - are from multiple KAI and ADD insiders. What we are being told is that the team of Indonesian engineers are working almost completely separate from the Korean-LM TAC design team and are assigned to specific calculations and problem solving for limited field of research, which I suspect are structural and subsonic aerodynamics analysis.

Then again here you are giving a way more detailed and credible sources, so there is a noticeable amount of possibility of myself standing corrected and in fact Indonesian engineers could be contributing for wider field of engineering such as aircraft production or system integration.

Still there are questions to be asked. Yes, Indonesia does have a longer history of designing and producing an aircraft domestically but it was not a high-agility supersonic aircraft that Indonesia was busy with. Arguably Korea would eventually have more experience regarding such. You yourself are mentioning that there was a discontinuation of generational transition of expertise during the 2000s, which I presume would be able to be traced back to the Asian financial crisis in the late 90s.

So Korea has more experience in designing a high maneuverability, supersonic aircraft with weapons and sensory system integration. The MC, FCC, NDI flight model and most of the other flight control and system integration electronics are a continuation from the experience gained from the KT-X program that has been developed and are being developed by the Korean engineers with some help from LM. On top of that there was no discontinuation of knowledge or know-how on the Korean side of things.

I really can't think of much when it comes to asking the question of what Indonesian engineers could be contributing more on when such a large part of KF-X program are either a continuation from the technologies developed from the KT-X program or based on the technologies gained through ToT during the F-X program.

Overall this is exactly that kind of topic where we would not be given any clear cut answers unless Indonesia do exit the program. Most of the technology involved are highly confidential thus the working environment and the people in the program are not those who are easy to reach and are under control of the controlling bodies. All we are getting are those interviews that are mostly unilateral and focused on either the Indonesian side of matters or the Korean side of matters which makes it impossible for us to judge solely based on these sources.

Such as

There is even a work package whose technology is only owned by Indonesians. He is a doctor from ITB (Bandung Institute of Technology), the only one who has inlight design capabilities.

What should this technology even be? How significant is this technology in the first place? "Korea not taking Indonesia lightly" is the perspective of the Indonesian themselves which hardly tells much about what the Korean engineers actually think.

Other example would be

Angkasa examine admiration of ADD ( Agency for Defense Development, Defence Research and Development Agency of Korea ) submitted to the Indonesian engineer team. Initially, the team assumes Korea really had no idea about the design of Indonesian fighter jets. However, the assumption was turned when Indonesian engineers began to describe the design and the various inputs to the design of Korea. The Indonesian side also who ultimately ensure that the aircraft must have a takeoff weight of 50,000 pounds.(A.Darmawan/Angkasa magazine).

Here the Indonesian involvement during the design definition phase is mentioned as an important contribution in the program but importance of this contribution aside, it unfortunately doesn't tell much about the technological aspects of the of the Indonesian involvement but has more to do with how Indonesia is a partner of the program. As partner of the KF-X/IF-X program Indonesia obviously and rightfully could require and demand certain designs of the aircraft to suit its needs. The mass of the aircraft could be just one of those as Indonesia would obviously want a bigger internal fuel tank which is integral to aircraft mass.

All in all reading all your sources, it seems likely that what you are suggesting and mentioning are true, that there are in fact senior Indonesian engineers who are providing more input than what Koreans originally anticipated. On the flipside I am still considering what I have read from the KAI insiders at least partially true if not mostly true and will at least retain part of my doubts considering the Indonesian involvement.

Last but not least, mechanical design is just one part of the fundamentals of a fighter jet. We all know and you are already mentioning yourself that the other fundamental part of a fighter jet, which arguably has become even more important than the mechanical design of the fuselage itself, most of if not all the avionics, are either solely being developed by the Korean engineers, with or without foreign assistance or just procured straight away from foreign suppliers. Having close to zero contribution on these side of developments speaks a lot.

So that is my take regarding the technical contribution of Indonesian engineers in the KF-X/IF-X program.

Back to the topic of renegotiation, I still stand firm on what I have written in the previous post.