Keeping army in check "Full democracy not far!

[Moorkh]

pseudo-democracy means pretending to be like democracy....& actually not democracy
so is not it worse then dictatorship ??

i dont know if u will appreciate this analogy

think of it this way
democracy - following the rules and laws
pseudo democracy - acting like u r following the laws
dictatorship - openly showing finger to the law

pseudo democracy is better as it accepts that democracy is the right way to go. dictatorship simply says its better than democracy. but infact democracy is better than dictatorship.
so the idea is to remember what the right thing is even if you dont/cant follow it.

 

[Moorkh]

ok for a minute we agree that no more army or military intervention! now tell me who we got as our leaders? ZARDARI trust me if pakistan ever needed a coup it was NOW! to remove this termite he is eating away at our economy at our infrastructure everything!!!

we need him removed as well as all the sharif brothers as well as UK national Altaf hussain & the weirdos who call themselves ANP remove PPP,PML & MQM, ANP! then we can talk about decmoracy where in the vacum someone new can step up!

before you can do all this YOU NEED LAND REFORMS! REMOVE FEUDAL SYSTEM! and to remove feudal system you need the army which has no feudal background to come in and abolish the system!

i think pak-marine answered you very well.

as was mentioned in this thread itself. the PPP is breaking apart. and the people of pakistan are unhappy with zardari. so next time you can be sure he isnt coming to power again. same thing will happen to the next president or prime minister if he is found to be bad.

elections can also be seen as a process of elimination. those who are considered unfit to rule/lead are weeded out by the people at election time.


if nawaz sharif and zardari are as bad as you say they will get weeded out . the elections will create the vacuum that you want.

if not then the people of pakistan trust them to lead them well and are happy with their performance. in that case, you sir will need to open your eyes and get rid of the disconnect with the reality of the rest of your country.

 

[sparklingway]

Why does the issue of the evolution of democracy have to come down to blaming the military or political leaders for our bad situation today. As Taimikhan said, both are responsible. There can be an argument as to who shares the major blame, let's leave that for history to judge and individuals to reach conclusion. Fighting over this is pointless and never evolves into a positive debate.

Every debate on this forum or any other conversation in general about the the system of governance in our country somehow has to come down to Asif Ali Zardari.

Let me summarize it in a few sentences.

Asif Ali Zardari's biggest achievement was to get married to Benazir Bhutto. He is notorious for charges of corruption nobody in the world could match. Nonetheless, he was never convinced conclusively (convictions being overthrown and all that), he was tortured in jail, he made a drama out of it, he accepted that Surrey Palace (Rockwood Mansion) was his and in the wake of the return of his wife to Pakistan under a deal duly signed by His Highness The Absconder Commando (to save his own throne), returned to Pakistan after she was tragically assassinated. In an unprecedented move, Asif Ali Zardari grabbed the reigns of the PPP after his party got a major chunk of the vote, and started a process of happy-love democracy with the PML-N. Everybody was happy and there was an aura of celebration and hope everywhere. And then, the inevitable happened. Zardari broke his agreements, the PML-N broke away from the government and since then he has tried numerous time to commit political suicide with KLB fiascoes, judges issue, NROs and what not. Nonetheless, the state for the first time is committed to fighting terrorism and the masses support the state's policies in this regard. His appointment as the President was never anticipated and nobody thought that this was part of the deal. His presence and arrogant decisions are a pain to all. But he must learn his lessons quickly, stop interfering in the day to day affairs of the state and remain seated so that we don't create a political vacuum for people to fight over.

Asif Ali Zardari is a nuisance to many, but in my opinion his sacking would only create m ore troubles for our country.

Condoning military rule and asking for more military interventions is pointless and idiotic. Ask your representatives about accountability, contribute to the system, participate in it and contribute towards a social change.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Politicians and political workers of all parties in Pak have suffered a lot atleast if we compare them to armed forces those who were responsible or not guilty but they had their part of ragging ""punished , exiled , murdered , jailed watever"" Even bhuto was hanged becuase he was accused of a murder. However when it comes to acountability there no such thing existing whereas they have been the one who have done the most extensive damage to the state dont you think its the other way around.

As i said both the parties have done their equal part to damage Pakistan. Difference is the way of doing. If Bhutto got killed, so did Zia got killed.

Problem is, our democratic oligarchs when come into power damn care about democracy and Pakistan, they look to their own interested and by using the name of democratic govt wish to install a dictatorship.

Which ever govt has come, all of them want to have every organization under them, even including the Army.

If our politicians had been running their govt for 5 years, do their hard work, do the managing of the economy and try to make peoples life better, Army would have & will never come. But as our oligarchs start fighting each other for the seat through cheap tactics rather then taking care of the country, they automatically welcome the Army to come.

So accountability should be for everyone, our oligarchs have been unaccountable so has been the other side.

But i put the blame on the oligarchs for this mess, just see this govt, they are repeatedly themselves knocking on the doors of the GHQ to depose them as they don't have the balls themselves to resign or make things better.

The day our these oligarchs become true or decent civilized patriotic politicians or even oligarchs, Army will have no room to enter and we will prosper, but till the day they keep doing their cheap tricks to undermine each other and Pakistan, they welcome the army to come in and take control.

 

[pak-marine]

i dont know if u will appreciate this analogy

think of it this way
democracy - following the rules and laws
pseudo democracy - acting like u r following the laws
dictatorship - openly showing finger to the law

pseudo democracy is better as it accepts that democracy is the right way to go. dictatorship simply says its better than democracy. but infact democracy is better than dictatorship.
so the idea is to remember what the right thing is even if you dont/cant follow it.

pseudo sounds more like "Do kashtion main paon rakhna"" one is its more likely to sink ! its hipocracy nothing else really .. so either democracy or dictatorship.

 

[pak-marine]

As i said both the parties have done their equal part to damage Pakistan. Difference is the way of doing. If Bhutto got killed, so did Zia got killed.

Bhuto was Jailed and hanged , zia was killed in a plane crash , and he was a serving general sir .. there is a huge difference btw both so lets not compare two irrevalant things here. Although in my view if we assume for a minute that both were equally bad ... who in the armed forces has ever been accounted for ??? from Bangldesh division to Musharafs actions ?

Problem is, our democratic oligarchs when come into power damn care about democracy and Pakistan, they look to their own interested and by using the name of democratic govt wish to install a dictatorship.

So is the armed forces .. when they were in power there have set the worst examples sir ... politicians actions are a threat to our banks , armed forces actions have become a threat to our lives and land.. who you think is worst .. choice is like always for us and that is btw the worst and bad !

Which ever govt has come, all of them want to have every organization under them, even including the Army.
If our politicians had been running their govt for 5 years, do their hard work, do the managing of the economy and try to make peoples life better, Army would have & will never come. But as our oligarchs start fighting each other for the seat through cheap tactics rather then taking care of the country, they automatically welcome the Army to come.
So accountability should be for everyone, our oligarchs have been unaccountable so has been the other side.
But i put the blame on the oligarchs for this mess, just see this govt, they are repeatedly themselves knocking on the doors of the GHQ to depose them as they don't have the balls themselves to resign or make things better.

Correcto they all go knocking ghq doors and thats becuase armed forces have very firm control ... this has to finish. May the politicians have to b a bit honest to the nation and tell us why do they go knowcking!? or if another member can enlighten than will much appreciate that.

The day our these oligarchs become true or decent civilized patriotic politicians or even oligarchs, Army will have no room to enter and we will prosper, but till the day they keep doing their cheap tricks to undermine each other and Pakistan, they welcome the army to come in and take control.

Not ovr night process ... we need few decades for that to happen .. and the way things have been its certainly will get to more worst . Also if there is any Room than its not for armed forces instead we need more competitive talent and politicians through those and thats the fundamental issue highlighted by the author there are gaps and if tanks will get through those ever again and we will be back to square one.