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Keeping army in check "Full democracy not far!

turkey has had many coups! & is currently way ahead of its neighbors in terms of economy & military!

and a general is still better than a spineless leader that thrives on divisional politics! :coffee:

no more nawaz sharif,no more altaf hussain,no more zardari,bhutto none of them!!!! no more same leaders!!!


found this for you \
A leaf from Turkey’s book By Ayesha Siddiqa
Friday, 12 Mar, 2010 The major difference between the Turkish and Pakistan’s military is that the latter has more than nine lives and has an open field since even the opponents are ultimately its partners. –Photo by Reuters The discussion in Turkey on a botched coup attempt some years ago raised some hopes of Pakistan following a similar route. Operation Sledgehammer, as the attempted coup in Turkey was codenamed, involved senior military officers and aimed at creating internal chaos to allow for a military takeover.
The Turkish military is generally uncomfortable with an Islamic party in power. In April 2007 it had issued a general statement opposing the candidacy of the current president (Abdullah Gul) for the presidential elections, calling it a disaster for the country. However, Gul’s party still made it to power. Despite continued pressure from the armed forces, the Islamic AKP (Justice and Development Party) could not be dislodged due to popular support. Pakistan could have a similar experience but in a different context.

In Turkey’s case, the military was historically considered part of the nation-building process. It was Kemal Ataturk and his forces that got rid of the Ottoman empire and the system of khilafat to build a new republic based on secular principles. This meant that while people were allowed to pursue their faith, the state would not mix politics and religion.

Hence, the Turkish state never became a ‘faithless’ state. However, the military directly became the guarantor of the new socio-political system including the survival of secular politics and the establishment of more European social structures. The fact that the ruling elite built internal partnerships and supported the military began to create a wedge between the rulers and the ruled. Even leftist parties supported the military, which resulted in their losing some measure of popularity.

For society at large the only other option was offered by the Islamic parties that provided a different agenda to what was being offered by the elite, resulting in the AKP’s popularity. The debate on joining the European Union further strengthened the party’s position as it accepted the demand for democratisation laid down by the EU.

The AKP managed to outsmart the military, which was forced from the outside to accept the internal changes. The EU constantly challenged the power, perks and privileges of the Turkish armed forces, which had built their significance on the basis of being the guardians and guarantors of Turkey’s changing national narrative. The AKP did not talk about reinstating the khilafat; in fact, it benefited from the European demand for Turkey to become democratic.

Pakistan’s case is quite different. There are similarities but it is the differences which put Pakistan in a separate league. Firstly, its military was not part of the initial nation-building process. It was actually a post-colonial institution just like the civil bureaucracy. This means that the various stakeholders did not necessarily consider the military above board and an uncontested writer and guarantor of the social contract as in Turkey. Pakistan’s military was part of the state bureaucracy that gained power over time and began to dominate the state.

Each bout of military rule has extended the armed forces’ power even further. The power to extend the service of senior officers, which the current army chief has exercised, was never naturally his but was made so by Gen Ziaul Haq. As per the rules, the power to appoint, promote and extend service belongs to the appointing authority, which in the case of the federal government lies with the prime minister. Zia and later Musharraf were responsible for extending the military’s pervasive role in politics, society and the economy in order to wield power even though the armed forces were not in direct control.

Like Turkey, the ruling elite in Pakistan has also contributed to building the military’s power. In fact, in Pakistan’s case the civil-military divide is not simply linear but both horizontal and vertical. Eventually, all political leaders make strategic compromises with the military for short-term gains. The signing of illegal deals or hiding the military’s assets or trying to whitewash the defence establishment’s blunders is done because political leaders and significant members of civil society believe they can benefit from association with the generals.

If we were only to dig up and compare the statements of individuals regarding military rule it would be easy to see the somersaults made by so many to secure their financial and other interests. The short memory of the people helps some get away with murder.

But Pakistan does not have the convenience of foreign actors who would help with a fundamental change as in Turkey’s case. Islamabad’s international benefactors have happily rebuilt their links with GHQ, especially now that there seems to be some hope of making gains in Afghanistan. Foreign stakeholders like the US have always been shortsighted as far as Pakistan is concerned.

But it is also a fact that they want to keep the military on their side because it is not ideologically opposed to using religion as a tool. This is not to suggest there is something wrong with the idea, but it is a matter of a military not geared to apply western or even Islamic principles of secularism as done by Turkey. Therefore, the only gains the US and its allies can hope to make in the region are to get maximum support from the armed forces even though they do not hope to change the institution. The military has a radical outlook and is comfortable with some aspects of political Islam as an operational tool. The Islamists are integrated into the military machine as those who adopt a pragmatic approach in dealing with external actors.

For instance, the military is keen for the US to stay but only deal through the GHQ both nationally and regionally. Policymakers in Washington are of the view that the idea of an American withdrawal from Afghanistan has deeply perturbed Pakistan’s military.

However, the issue with a multifaceted institution, which builds multilayered partnerships, is that it is difficult to push back. It can change clothes and reappear once a crisis is over. Thus the major difference between the Turkish and Pakistan’s military is that the latter has more than nine lives and has an open field since even the opponents are ultimately its partners.

The writer is an independent strategic and political analyst.

ayesha.ibd@gmail.com
 
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The Pakistani Military establishment is much more capable, devoted, loyal, and disciplined than the crooks people vote in based on non existing principles that only work in industrialized first world social welfare states. Pakistan is a special entity that can only be ruled by the military. Army Air Force and Navy any day of the week over these moles and spineless drama actors.
 
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The Pakistani Military establishment is much more capable, devoted, loyal, and disciplined than the crooks people vote in based on non existing principles that only work in industrialized first world social welfare states. Pakistan is a special entity that can only be ruled by the military. Army Air Force and Navy any day of the week over these moles and spineless drama actors.

Another elitist claiming that democratic is incompatible with Pakistan.
 
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I would like to give my views on the topic, sorry if any of you guys mind. Anyways, I totally feel that democracy despite many flaws, is the best form of governance. It gives the people a right to make decisions, to choose their future, their leader, which a military rule will never promise. I just do not understand, if you guys are choosing a leader of your choice, then you should have no complains at all.
Any democracy, needs time to evolve, a good 40-50 years to see the benifits.
India is an example where the politics and democracy has finally matured, and is bearing some fruits deff.
Unfortunately Pakistani democracy never got that chance and time, to evolve, for known reasons.
The current government is corrupt in your eyes, but you guys chose it, be more careful with the votes nxt time. This is what i mean evolution of democracy, where people, the aawaam also has to evolve.
 
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Another elitist claiming that democratic is incompatible with Pakistan.

What's the point of leaving me messages on my profile if you won't abide by them yourself? That's called hypocrisy. Don't call me an elitist for no reason. There are reasons why I am saying I would prefer a Pakistan under military rule than one under mob rule, rule of the wealthy businessmen. Your democracy is the so called elitist enterprise, don't besmirch my military, they can kick anyone's a$$ on a bad day. Democracy can't even feed the middle class of Pakistan properly.
 
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The Pakistani military is the most organized, united, and disciplined establishment in Pakistan.

Pakistan People's Party (the party that is now "leading" Pakistan) is lost and even members of PPP hate their president. There's no unity and discipline in that party, the party is a joke.

Even today, its not zardari or gilani who is holding the country together it is General Kayani and his army who are holding the country together.
 
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While democracy itself in its real form a good idea, many democracies today - Pakistan included - are basically wealthy politicians telling the public that since there is democracy, the public is running the country. Basically they look democracies from the outside, when in fact they are not. These people know that the masses prefer democracy so they have found a way to manipulate that very thing for their own purproses.

I believe the last time US had a real democracy was in the 60s. Since then it's wealthy businessmen running the show deciding who would become the president. It's basically telling the public that they have a choice and that they are in charge, when they really are not. The politicians are in the pockets of these wealthy businessmen (or in the pockets of other states in the case of Pakistan).
 
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Thunder:- Patience is a virtue. The way this country has been ruled, with intermittent military takeovers, nobody expects a functional democracy overnight. It isn't a system that can be initiated and implemented at the grasssroot level in its purest and most efficient form overnight. It usually takes decades but even then it requires citizen participation, accountability, change in social norms and expectations. What I am writing has been written on this forum hundreds, if not thousand of times. The tree of democracy will bear the fruit of development if we let it grow and if we water it.

Omar:- A military is expected and should be united and disciplined, otherwise there's no need for one. Giving this as a reason for legitimacy for coups is lame and pointless. There is no room for anymore self righteous adventurers to tear this country apart. Political parties cannot function on nods and yes sirs. PPP today is broken into groups, very much a dictatorship and highly undemocratic in its decisions, there is no doubt about that.

SMC:- No one can argue that we have a dysfunctional democracy, but what else can you expect from after what our society has been doing to the system of governance. The US indeed has been transformed into a plutonomy.

Anybody here ever go see their councilor for problems such as a bubbling sewerage line or a dysfunctional garbage disposal? I'm guessing maybe 5%. Talk about democratic participation from our "educated" upper middle class.

I'll copy and paste what I wrote on the previous page, which I guess nobody read because it did not condone military rule:-

A major problem is the widespread disillusionment among the people who have the intellectual and material resources to change the system and they have come to define themselves as apolitical.

This attitude stems from the incapability of corrupt politicians and crooked bureaucracy to govern, which has forced the people to not just hate the people in power, but the democratic process itself. Politicians and top level government officials have never shown the necessary leadership, sense of duty, responsibility, passion to serve and moral uprightness. The general cynicism is visible in the hatred for the very system of governance, the lack of faith in the ability of the government and the desperation to seek a paradise home outside the country, which is alarming for a country facing major crises.

The people have never asserted their true power and as they do not believe in their ability to alter the political landscape. The masses have allowed military dictators and feudal aristocrats to come, loot the national exchequer for decades and then dance away.

Today, we stand at a point in history, “where we have the chance to realign the national landscape and create a new governing ideology”. Faced with major crises, we require clearly visioned long term policies, not mere hypocritical and hyperbolic calls for democracy. To re-establish public trust in the government is a tall task indeed and it requires patience and support of the people and vision of the politicians; progressive politics that focuses on the welfare of the people and supports social justice.
 
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thank you sparkling way well said .. Also all members against this please read the article as our army is acused of constant intervention in public affairs .. and due to our stupid non sense past foriegn policies narated by A or few generals we have an internal war , half the country lost ... !
 
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Omar1984;728828]The Pakistani military is the most organized, united, and disciplined establishment in Pakistan.

Diciplined Army good for the defence thats how they should be its their job and they get paid for it .

Pakistan People's Party (the party that is now "leading" Pakistan) is lost and even members of PPP hate their president. There's no unity and discipline in that party, the party is a joke.

the people of pakistan in millions voted for them you are calling them al a joke!

Even today, its not zardari or gilani who is holding the country together it is General Kayani and his army who are holding the country together

yeh thats the point and a member highlighted psudo -democracy , the army should leave civil admin to itself , its harmfull and present results are a good enough picture for every single pakistani that what damage dictator ship can do. They are simply not accountable for any thing and prety much get away with all .. its a state within a state !
 
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thank you sparkling way well said .. Also all members against this please read the article as our army is acused of constant intervention in public affairs .. and due to our stupid non sense past foriegn policies narated by A or few generals we have an internal war , half the country lost ... !

So easy to give a verdict and find guilty the army and give the oligarchs a non guilty verdict.

tali :yahoo: aik haath sae nahien dono haathon sae bajti hai.

People should realize for our wows, Army and our political elite both are responsible.
 
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ok for a minute we agree that no more army or military intervention! now tell me who we got as our leaders? ZARDARI trust me if pakistan ever needed a coup it was NOW! to remove this termite he is eating away at our economy at our infrastructure everything!!!

we need him removed as well as all the sharif brothers as well as UK national Altaf hussain & the weirdos who call themselves ANP remove PPP,PML & MQM, ANP! then we can talk about decmoracy where in the vacum someone new can step up!

before you can do all this YOU NEED LAND REFORMS! REMOVE FEUDAL SYSTEM! and to remove feudal system you need the army which has no feudal background to come in and abolish the system!
 
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So easy to give a verdict and find guilty the army and give the oligarchs a non guilty verdict.

tali :yahoo: aik haath sae nahien dono haathon sae bajti hai.

People should realize for our wows, Army and our political elite both are responsible.

Politicians and political workers of all parties in Pak have suffered a lot atleast if we compare them to armed forces those who were responsible or not guilty but they had their part of ragging ""punished , exiled , murdered , jailed watever"" Even bhuto was hanged becuase he was accused of a murder. However when it comes to acountability there no such thing existing whereas they have been the one who have done the most extensive damage to the state dont you think its the other way around.
 
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ok for a minute we agree that no more army or military intervention! now tell me who we got as our leaders?

You have named them below , like it or not they are the leaders who pakistanis choose to represent and if coup upon coup or no check on armed forces they and their offsprings are most likely to stay forever.


ZARDARI trust me if pakistan ever needed a coup it was NOW! to remove this termite he is eating away at our economy at our infrastructure everything!!! we need him removed as well as all the sharif brothers as well as UK national Altaf hussain & the weirdos who call themselves ANP remove PPP,PML & MQM, ANP! then we can talk about decmoracy where in the vacum someone new can step up!

He is our president choosen by our people so are others, another coup and zardari and others are guranteed another election win (see past for your referece) however if this party completes their term and no assembly abolished , or coups than next elections will be bit more competitive and the next one will be more and so on. We have to be very patient here as its not an over night process democracy takes decades to setle in , there are no quick results.



before you can do all this YOU NEED LAND REFORMS! REMOVE FEUDAL SYSTEM! and to remove feudal system you need the army which has no feudal background to come in and abolish the system![/B


count how many years how many years army has been in power and google what have they done about land reforms if they were so against it !?
 
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