Kaveri Engine Project update

[SpArK]

Air Force says DRDO stalling Tejas fighter engine​

Air Force says DRDO stalling Tejas fighter engine


IAF feels DRDO fronting for French engine, citing ‘joint development’.

India’s Tejas light fighter is failing to meet performance targets, largely because of an underpowered engine. And, the Indian Air Force (IAF) believes the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is actively stalling the process of choosing a new engine.

A furious IAF, which urgently needs the Tejas to replace its retiring MiG-21 squadrons, has complained in writing to the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The IAF report says that even as the Aeronautical Development Agency, or ADA — which oversees the Tejas programme — is choosing between two powerful, modern engines from the global market, the DRDO has confused the issue by throwing up a third option: An offer to resurrect its failed Kaveri engine programme, this time in partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma.
The IAF report, currently with the highest levels of the MoD, makes two points. First, since the DRDO has been unable, for over two decades, to deliver a Kaveri engine that can power the Tejas, the ongoing procurement — of either the General Electric (GE) F-414, or the Eurojet EJ200 engine — should go ahead.

The IAF’s second objection is even more damning for the DRDO: Snecma, the IAF charges, has already developed the heart of the engine it is offering, an uprated derivative of the M88-2 engine that powers the French Rafale fighter. The DRDO, therefore, will not co-develop the engine, but merely provide Snecma with an indigenous stamp. In reality, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), the DRDO laboratory that has laboured for decades on the Kaveri, will hardly participate in any “joint development”.

Further, says a top IAF source, a Kaveri engine based on Snecma’s new core will leave the Tejas short of performance, providing barely 83-85 Kilonewtons (KN) of maximum thrust. In contrast, the GE and Eurojet engines already short-listed for selection provide 90-96 KN, a significant advantage. The source says sneaking in the underpowered Kaveri-Snecma engine through the GTRE back door will damage the LCA project.

For the IAF, the performance of the new engine is crucial. It has agreed to accept the Tejas into service as soon as the fighter obtains its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December, even though the Tejas does not yet fly, climb, turn or accelerate fast enough. The IAF’s accommodation is based on a promise from the ADA that a new, more powerful engine will overcome all the Tejas’ current performance shortfalls.

Senior IAF officers explain that the DRDO needs the Tejas project to endorse the Kaveri-Snecma engine because Snecma insists on a minimum assured order of 300 engines as a precondition for partnering GTRE in “joint development”. Since India’s futuristic Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) — the other potential user of a Kaveri-Snecma engine — has not yet been sanctioned, only the Tejas programme, with some 120-140 fighters planned, provides the numbers needed for satisfying Snecma.

The IAF will buy two squadrons (42 fighters) of Tejas Mark 1, which use older GE F-404 engines. In addition, five squadrons (110 fighters) of Tejas Mark 2 are planned, which will be powered by a new engine. Given that each Tejas could go through 2-3 engines during its lifetime, the LCA Mk 2 will actually need 200-300 of the new engines.

Contacted by Business Standard, the DRDO declined to comment on the subject.

Business Standard has already reported (December 12, 2009, “Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters&#8221 that the MoD is backing Kaveri-Snecma as a new engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). That report was corroborated on May 13 by Defence Minister A K Antony, who told Parliament that the Kaveri “requires to be optimised for lower weight and higher performance so that it can be used for the Tejas and possibly for Indian next generation combat Aircraft.”

But there are mixed signals from the establishment. In the same statement, Antony also talked about the possibility of engine import. And the ADA chief, P S Subramaniam, has told Business Standard: “There are many Tejas already flying that will soon need new engines and we will use the Kaveri-Snecma engines for those. The Tejas Mark 2 will be powered by either GE F-414 or the EJ200.”

According to ADA sources, both the GE and Eurojet engines have fully met the technical requirements for the Tejas Mk 2. The Eurojet EJ200 is the more modern, lighter, flexible engine and has impressed the IAF. The GE F-414 is significantly heavier, but provides more power. The Indian tender for 99 engines (plus options) demands that all engines after the first 10 be built in India.

 

[soaringphnx]

GTRE to Test Kaveri Engine​

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India’s first indigenously made jet engine ‘Kaveri’ is all set for a test flight next month. According to the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), the nodal laboratory for this program, the ‘Kaveri’ jet engine has finished all simulation and altitude tests and it will now be flight-tested on an Ilyushin-76 aircraft in Russia.

GTRE, the lab under state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), has been engaged in the research and development of the ‘Kaveri’ engine for two decades. T Mohana Rao, director of GTRE, confirmed that the last test of the engine in Russia this February was satisfactory and that the engine is ready for a test flight in a month’s time.

So far, the GTRE has developed nine ‘Kaveri’ jet-engines and four ‘Kabini’, the core turbojet engine of the ‘Kaveri’ engine and all have been satisfactorily tested for their optimal performance. The ‘Kaveri’ engine will be used for the ‘Tejas’ Light Combat Aircraft which is being indigenously developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

According to GTRE officials, around Rs3, 000 crore has been spent on the Kaveri project. Although the projected cost was nearly $82 million in 1989, by December 2004, GTRE had spent over $ 295 million on developing the ‘Kaveri’ engine. While technical problems kept plaguing the progress in the ‘Kaveri’ development programme, it also failed its high-altitude tests in Russia in 2004. Hence, it was rejected for the ‘Tejas’ LCA and the General Electric engine F-404 was fitted in the operational squadron ‘Tejas’ LCA.

However, GTRE is all set to make ‘Kaveri’ engine work for the ‘Tejas’ LCA and it plans to reduce the weight of the ‘Kaveri’ engine to 50 kilograms from 60 kilograms. GTRE has been involved in the research and development of gas turbines for military aircraft for a long time. Lately, it has become the nodal laboratory for a programme involving “coherent directed research” in the area of gas turbines. This program called “GATET”, which has been initiated by Aeronautics Research & Development Board (AR&DB), envisages about $20 million investment in three years and participation of 100 R&D centres and 1000 Scientists, engineers and technicians. GTRE will fill the technology gaps and develop human resources in military engine development.

Original article: GTRE to Test Kaveri Engine | India Defence Online

 

[soaringphnx]

Negotiations for Tejas aircraft engines soon​

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The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is set to start commercial negotiations with aircraft engine makers Eurojet Turbo GmbH and General Electric Aviation for 99 aircraft engines for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas.

The two engine manufacturers had been shortlisted after expressions of interest for an alternate engine for the LCA were issued last year. Eurojet, a European consortium, is offering its EJ200 engine, which powers the Eurofighter Typhoon fighter plane while the American firm has put in bids for its GE F414 engine used in the Boeing F/A-18 E/F Superhornet. The new engine will power the Mark II variant of the Tejas, which currently runs on F-404 engines made by GE.

“Soon, we should be starting commercial negotiations, probably in a couple of weeks,” said PS Subramanyam, director, ADA. “The technical evaluation is over. I think both of them (companies) are good candidates.” The Tejas aircraft ,with its current engine and configuration, is expected to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) from March next year with state-run military plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd supplying 20 planes initially. The proposal for a second batch of 20 planes has been cleared by the defence ministry and negotiations are on, Subramanyam said.

The IAF has indicated the need for five squadrons of the Mark-II, which will feature the alternate, more powerful engine and upgraded electronics. “Wherever there is obsolescence setting in, in terms of advancement of electronics, we are going for state-of-the-art electronics in the Mark-II,” said Subramanyam. Even as the process of procurement of engines is on, ADA has begun two tracks of design based on the shortlisted engines so as to not lose time, he added. Meanwhile, a proposal by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to co-develop the indigenous Kaveri engine with French engine house Snecma, is under consideration.

An upgraded and more powerful Kaveri engine is being seen initially as a replacement engine for the first batch of Tejas aircraft, Subramanyam added.

“Every aircraft in its lifetime needs two replacements. Some of those engines are already looking for that. By the time Kaveri gets developed and demonstrated, those engines can start coming as replacement engines for the first 20, 40 (aircraft),” he said. “There is full scope of what their profile is. It is very clear in our mind. The Kaveri engine profile for the next 30 years has a very strong dovetailing into the LCA programme,” he added.

Original article: Negotiations for Tejas aircraft engines soon

 

[ironman]

Hi, Ironman

Wouldn't it be a good idea to use this engine procurement, to combine it for a co-developed Kaveri engine. I mean, we buy 100 EJ 200 with 90kN and team up with them for a Kaveri-EJ engine for 100, or more kN. These could be used in later LCA versions, or even in AMCAs too.
The EJ 200 is reported to have the potential for a 100kN, or even up to 120kN improvment and they even offered us 3D TVC. They have only limited money to fund these developents, so if we team up with them, wouldn't it be useful for their engine, as well as ours?

But the problem is any company which developed cutting edge technology through hardcore R&D won't share anybody the core elements involved in them. The GE, Eurojet guys are rejected the proposal and we left with only Russian(Saturn) and French(Snecma) options. Current proposal from Snecma is, they will replace the hot section 'Kabini' and after fulfilling a certain amount of orders eventually transfer the technology.

 

[sancho]

But the problem is any company which developed cutting edge technology through hardcore R&D won't share anybody the core elements involved in them. The GE, Eurojet guys are rejected the proposal and we left with only Russian(Saturn) and French(Snecma) options. Current proposal from Snecma is, they will replace the hot section 'Kabini' and after fulfilling a certain amount of orders eventually transfer the technology.

Are you sure that they rejected it, or if such a co-development was on offer at all? As far as I know Snecma offered the Kaveri-Snecma co-development, because they couldn't offer an alternative engine that could be used on LCA MK2. That proposal was rejected, because IAF/MoD wanted a proven engine.

 

[ironman]

Are you sure that they rejected it, or if such a co-development was on offer at all? As far as I know Snecma offered the Kaveri-Snecma co-development, because they couldn't offer an alternative engine that could be used on LCA MK2. That proposal was rejected, because IAF/MoD wanted a proven engine.

"Business Standard has learned that Rolls Royce, and General Electric declined to partner GTRE, apparently unwilling to part with cutting-edge technology. US major, Pratt & Whitney, was willing only to provide consultancy. With only Russia’s NPO Saturn and Snecma in the game, the MoD has opted for Snecma."
Kaveri jet engine finally poised for first flight

 

[sancho]

The bold part is I don't agree. They already developed a cutting edge tech engine so they actually don't need huge amt of money to future developments Coz all other elements and technology of an engine already exists there,then future development costs will lesser.Am I?

Having the engine is one thing, improving it another and of course it costs and costs are a big problem for all the EF partners at the moment. That is exactly the reason why 3D TVC is not ready yet for EF, although it is in development for nearly a decade now. All it needs are the funds to get it done and start the integrations and because they don't have it, they offer it to us and LCA.

"Business Standard has learned that Rolls Royce, and General Electric declined to partner GTRE, apparently unwilling to part with cutting-edge technology. US major, Pratt & Whitney, was willing only to provide consultancy. With only Russia’s NPO Saturn and Snecma in the game, the MoD has opted for Snecma."
Kaveri jet engine finally poised for first flight

Interesting thanks! But if I get it right, they refused to team up for Kaveri-EJ in LCA MK2 right? Because that is what Snecma offered in the beginning, but MoD rejected that too and the latest articles said, that the new interest on a Kaveri-Snecma co-development is delinked from LCA and maybe aiming on AMCA.
However, my idea was to buy EJ 200 off the shelf for LCA MK2 too and team up with them on improvements like TVC, or more thrust, things they need for their engine as well as we need for Kaveri.

Check these newer articles:

Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi December 12, 2009, 12:56 IST

...Amongst the key engine technologies that India needs is that for Single Crystal Blades, which significantly enhance turbine performance within the incandescent confines of a jet engine combustion chamber. The MoD suspects that this technology, worth billions of dollars, will not be fully transferred by Eurojet or by GE.

An MoD official, who is closely involved in deciding between the EJ200 and the F-414, explains this apprehension: “The tender stipulates that 50% of the technology must be transferred to India. But the vendor will lump together a bunch of low-end technologies that might add up to 50%. What we want is one or two high-end technologies.”...

Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters


But in Feb 2010 it was reported:

Eurojet may transfer single crystal blade technology to India

...Eurojet management yesterday confirmed that, if required, they are willing to transfer their single crystal turbine blade technology to India. This is currently not under the scope of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) engine request for proposal (RfP) and a separate commercial agreement would have to be signed...

defence.professionals | defpro.com


Also:

Eurojet could develop thrust vectoring with India

The consortium behind the Eurofighter Typhoon's engine has hinted strongly that it could partner a non-European country - possibly India - to develop and demonstrate a thrust-vectoring version of the EJ200 as part of a technology-sharing deal.

Eurojet could develop thrust vectoring with India


As you can see, they now seems to be ready to provide critical techs that to seal the deal and even to team up with us on the TVC development. So all that is missing to my idea, is the team up for an improved Kaveri-EJ engine for LCA MK3, or AMCA.

Imo, this could be a big chance for us to not only get things on LCA done faster, but also get the necessary techs for future developments too (SC, 3D TVC, higher thrust).
I don't have anything against a Kaveri-Snecma engine, but I am for an proven engine in LCA MK2 and think it would be easier to team up with one company on the licence produced engines, as well as the co-developed Kaveri engines.

 

[ironman]

Interesting thanks! But if I get it right, they refused to team up for Kaveri-EJ in LCA MK2 right? Because that is what Snecma offered in the beginning, but MoD rejected that too and the latest articles said, that the new interest on a Kaveri-Snecma co-development is delinked from LCA and maybe aiming on AMCA.
However, my idea was to buy EJ 200 off the shelf for LCA MK2 too and team up with them on improvements like TVC, or more thrust, things they need for their engine as well as we need for Kaveri.

As you can see, they now seems to be ready to provide critical techs that to seal the deal and even to team up with us on the TVC development. So all that is missing to my idea, is the team up for an improved Kaveri-EJ engine for LCA MK3, or AMCA.

Imo, this could be a big chance for us to not only get things on LCA done faster, but also get the necessary techs for future developments too (SC, 3D TVC, higher thrust).
I don't have anything against a Kaveri-Snecma engine, but I am for an proven engine in LCA MK2 and think it would be easier to team up with one company on the licence produced engines, as well as the co-developed Kaveri engines.

Things will not move faster as we expected in this matter. As you can see the Eurojet's current offer they are now willing to share the technology but only with a separate contract. The current option that we have from Snecma is

Project cost = 1000 crores at least
Development time = 4 yrs
Minimum order quantity = 250
Tech transfer = After 15 yrs (Probably will change)

Remember, this is from a manufacturer whose single engine is not in operational then what would have been from a proven one?.

 

[sancho]

Things will not move faster as we expected in this matter. As you can see the Eurojet's current offer they are now willing to share the technology but only with a separate contract. The current option that we have from Snecma is

Project cost = 1000 crores at least
Development time = 4 yrs
Minimum order quantity = 250
Tech transfer = After 15 yrs (Probably will change)

Remember, this is from a manufacturer whose single engine is not in operational then what would have been from a proven one?.

As I said, I have nothing against a Kaveri-Snecma engine, but not for LCA MK2 and pretty much for the reasons you pointed out right now. It has no single engine developed now (EJ 200 single engine was developed in the early 2000s in a competition for Gripen NG), Kaveri-Snecma engine needs 4 years development, while EJ 200 could be fully integrated in 3 years only.

And how important a good and proven engine is for a single engine should be obvious by our Mig 21s and Mig 27. A failure because we used an unproven Kaveri-Snecma engine means loss of the whole fighter and maybe even the pilot! To be frank, I am sick of reports of crashed IAF fighters and dead pilots and even more of delays in LCA development. A proven and already developed engine, should be the better choice to get LCA MK2 operational and safe into service.

Btw a minimum order of 250, means 250 LCAs, but how likely is that? Even the engine competition is for 150 at max.

 

[ironman]

As I said, I have nothing against a Kaveri-Snecma engine, but not for LCA MK2 and pretty much for the reasons you pointed out right now. It has no single engine developed now (EJ 200 single engine was developed in the early 2000s in a competition for Gripen NG), Kaveri-Snecma engine needs 4 years development, while EJ 200 could be fully integrated in 3 years only.

The 4 year figure is based on a technical feasibility study by Snecma on integrating their technology in Kaveri.

And how important a good and proven engine is for a single engine should be obvious by our Mig 21s and Mig 27. A failure because we used an unproven Kaveri-Snecma engine means loss of the whole fighter and maybe even the pilot! To be frank, I am sick of reports of crashed IAF fighters and dead pilots and even more of delays in LCA development. A proven and already developed engine, should be the better choice to get LCA MK2 operational and safe into service.

'Not operational' anyway doesn't mean unproven. They have tested and validated its performance 2 years back only integration is left. If they are not capable of deliver what GTRE asking they wouldn't have been shortlisted.

Btw a minimum order of 250, means 250 LCAs, but how likely is that? Even the engine competition is for 150 at max.

That is what Snecma wants for economical viability.

 

[sancho]

The 4 year figure is based on a technical feasibility study by Snecma on integrating their technology in Kaveri.

That's what I meant, fot the engine only, integration into LCA needs some more time.

Not operational' anyway doesn't mean unproven. They have tested and validated its performance 2 years back only integration is left. If they are not capable of deliver what GTRE asking they wouldn't have been shortlisted.

What did they tested? I don't see anything regarding a single engine M88 and the co-development offer was rejected by MoD at first, it is now only interesting again with AMCA in mind. Integrating EJ 200, or GE 414 could be done way faster, because there are only modifications needed, not totally new developments.

That is what Snecma wants for economical viability.

True, but I doubt we will go for that many single engines, especially with 90kN thrust only, 125 twin engine fighters would be an easier aim (Rafale with Kaveri-Snecma in MMRCA!).

 

[ironman]

PIB Press Release
Monday, August 02, 2010


The project for design and development of Kaveri engine was sanctioned to achieve the interim flight standard for LCA ‘Tejas’ integration. Though the Kaveri engine was not fully meeting the requirement of LCA ‘Tejas’, it provided a platform for gas turbine technology development in the country.



This project was the first indigenous aero-engine development project in the country. Besides, some of the reasons for delay in the project are:-

1. Ab-initio development of state-of-the-art gas turbine technologies.
   
2. Technical/technological complexities.
   
3. Lack of availability of critical equipment & materials and denial of technologies by the technologically advanced countries.
   
4. Lack of availability of test facilities in the country necessitating testing abroad.
   
5. Non availability of skilled/technically specialized manpower.

Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) associated itself with a premier scientific organisation of Russia i.e., Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM) with an objective of fine tuning of Kaveri engine performance. This association brought GTRE per se Kaveri project in higher platform, resulting in successful completion of one major milestone i.e. altitude testing, simulating Kaveri engine performance at different altitude and Mach No. Subsequently, one of Kaveri prototype (K9) is being integrated with IL-76 aircraft at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Russia for ground and flight tests, of Flying Test Bed (FTB) trials, this will be the second major milestone to be achieved. These two milestones would make ‘Kaveri engine flightworthy.

The details of the funds allocated and utilized are as under:​

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri C Rajendran in Lok Sabha today.

PIB Press Release

 

[jha]

Kaveri Prototype To Be Integrated With IL-76 At Gromov Flt Research Institute Russia For Tests

Defence Minister A K Antony informed Lok Sabha today that,Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) associated itself with a premier scientific organisation of Russia i.e., Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM) with an objective of fine tuning of Kaveri engine performance. This association brought GTRE per se Kaveri project in higher platform, resulting in successful completion of one major milestone i.e. altitude testing, simulating Kaveri engine performance at different altitude and Mach No. Subsequently, one of Kaveri prototype (K9) is being integrated with IL-76 aircraft at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Russia for ground and flight tests, of Flying Test Bed (FTB) trials, this will be the second major milestone to be achieved. These two milestones would make ‘Kaveri engine flight-worthy.

 

[flanker143]

Kaveri a boost to gas turbine engine tech: Govt

New Delhi: The DRDO-made 'Kaveri' engine could not be integrated with the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) but it has provided a platform for the development of gas turbine engine technology in the country, Lok Sabha was informed today.

"Though the Kaveri engine was not fully meeting the requirement of LCA 'Tejas', it provided a platform for gas turbine technology development in India," Defence Minister A K Antony said in reply to a question in Lok Sabha.



The design and development of Kaveri was sanctioned for the LCA 'Tejas' fighter aircraft programme.

Talking about the milestones achieved by the engine project, the Minister said DRDO has tied up with a Russian scientific organisation Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM) for fine-tuning of the Kaveri engine's performance.

"This association brought the project in higher platform, resulting in successful completion of one major milestone of altitude testing, simulating Kaveri engine performance at different altitude and Mach No," he added.

Antony said that one of engine prototypes 'K9' is being integrated with IL-76 aircraft at Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia for ground and test bed trials.

 

[soaringphnx]