Kashmir: why talk to India?

[Nilgiri]

U dare not say that........They will do their job one way or another....I m no military expert or defense analyst but "laughable Pakistan navy" was and I believe, still the trend setter in this region. We introduced maritime patrol aircraft in region, after which Indians came to their sensed and realized the need of it and bought P-8 Poseidon (Maritime Patrol Aircraft) from US for Indian navy. We were the one to introduced the first Sub in this region. India, then later joined it..

We were just having less money now. Its been addressed now. For example, we just procured and developed locally the fleet tanker ship with the help of Turk brethren. Men of sea were neglected in the past but not now. I m assuming that either they have the capability to neutralize, many as they can, nuke subs of India or they are just going to have it....We are quite sensitive when it comes to military procurement, no one knows what we r having right now or where do we lack except the navy folks.

Our motivation, determination and courage to inflict pain on enemy is quite healthy and ready to play in any given circumstances. I believe our men of sea are quite professional and are just waiting for orders to get Indians delivered....

....and you still haven't answered how this "legacy" exactly helps the PN target an SSBN.

I am talking about the here and now only....I suggest you do the same.

If you really want to learn something, you should read up on SSBN doctrine by both the Soviets and the US....and why they were lynchpins of MAD strategy.....even with the substantial assets both sides had at their disposal in ASW.....assets well above what the PN can dream of.

So sorry there is no way PN with what it has and what it will have access to in near future can counter SSBNs that India pumps out effectively.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

....and you still haven't answered how this "legacy" exactly helps the PN target an SSBN.

I am talking about the here and now only....I suggest you do the same.

If you really want to learn something, you should read up on SSBN doctrine by both the Soviets and the US....and why they were lynchpins of MAD strategy.....even with the substantial assets both sides had at their disposal in ASW.....assets well above what the PN can dream of.

So sorry there is no way PN with what it has and what it will have access to in near future can counter SSBNs that India pumps out effectively.

As i said....You and me know absolutely nothing whats going on in the minds of our navy officials....You have to consider a threat to your nuke subs by PN. Nuke subs make too much noise.No? It won't b difficult to track nuke subs.

 

[Gregor Clegane]

U dare not say that........They will do their job one way or another....I m no military expert or defense analyst but "laughable Pakistan navy" was and I believe, still the trend setter in this region. We introduced maritime patrol aircraft in region, after which Indians came to their sensed and realized the need of it and bought P-8 Poseidon (Maritime Patrol Aircraft) from US for Indian navy.

Lol.Epic Fail.
India was the first to introduce Maritime Patrol Aircraft aircraft in the region when it deployed specially modified Lockheed Super Constellations in 1968.

 

[laphroaig]

Nuke subs make too much noise.No?

Diesel submarines make noise. And you do not have a credible defence against those either.

Right now only the Americans have the technology and the capability of tailing and destroying our nuclear submarines. And if it were to come to a nuclear second strike, I have a feeling that looking at where the nukes were headed, the Americans would be standing down. Simply making certain that the Chinese did not intervene.

 

[Pulsar]

If you're thinking u can needle Pak by raising so called "Baluchistan issue"......you're terribly wrong. Pakistan is not that sensitive unlike you. Pakistan, Kashmiris and world won't get distracted and will continue to put light on Kashmir, a real root cause of all bad blood, irrespective of India highlighting Baluchistan just for the sake of argument.

Wait and watch. Things are gonna get pretty interesting! It's already started some time ago. Read this.....

A handful of US congressmen support creating an independent Balochistan, carved out of mostly Pakistani land.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/02/201222112203196390.html

That was a couple of years ago. But now it's gaining momentum as the U.S. is not too happy with the CPEC as it is going to be a security challenge to them seeing that China will sooner than later be establishing a naval base at Gwadar with the aim of dominating the Strait of Hormuz, the Arabian Sea and the IOR where the American 5th Fleet is stationed. If Balochistan breaks away, so would Gwadar Port and with it the strategic advantage that China would have.

Thus, don't be surprised if the CIA is already at work for establishing an independent Balochistan!

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Lol.Epic Fail.
India was the first to introduce Maritime Patrol Aircraft aircraft in the region when it deployed specially modified Lockheed Super Constellations in 1968.

The Indian Air Force and Indian Navy used former Air India L-1049C, E and G versions converted by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for use as Sea Air and Rescue aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_L-1049_Super_Constellation

U guys used it for sea, air and as a rescue aircraft....Our P3C orion was the first formally patrol plane to hunt against subs and other patrol vessels....Your constellations were not there to hunt and track subs but used for for rescue operations.

U bought P8 Poseidon patrol aircraft because we were already having P3C orion aircraft....U see, to counter our P3C, u bought P8 poseidon....we were the ones who let introduced this patrol aircraft machine in arabian sea and indian ocean

 

[Nilgiri]

As i said....You and me know absolutely nothing whats going on in the minds of our navy officials.

You put too much trust in navy officials. Much easier to judge on ASW physical assets....and they are quite lacking in PN for the mission of trying to detect and eliminate an SSBN, especially when the Indian navy has a dedicated satellite to monitor Pakistan surface navy and coordinate with India's much larger surface fleet as well.

You have to consider a threat to your nuke subs by PN.

You have to give us something to consider in the first place. Right now its pretty plain vanilla assets and very little of it too. All countered pretty well by regular Indian navy assets.

Nuke subs make too much noise.No?

Not on silent mode. Pakistan certainly has no blue water assets that can track submarines from port to ocean extensively (even if somehow they can slip past detection by Indian monitoring) like the US and USSR did to each other a few times (but even they could never scale up to get past even 10% of total mission coverage)....

Nor does Pakistan have an undersea sonar network like the americans do for early warning of especially noisy submarines.

Just think about it, you will need a naval asset stationed far far away from Karachi patrolling in Indian waters near an Indian port....and by total random luck catch the (deployed) Indian SSBN leaving port through sonar lock and then be able to keep up with the submarine and outmaneuver it and then somehow neutralise it.....all the while having the Indian navy sit idly by?

Pakistan has some super ASW asset that can do this (and hold off entire Indian navy as well?)

It won't b difficult to track nuke subs.

Yes the Americans and Soviets found it so damn easy when they had navies hundred times larger than yours

Please refresh yourself about what silent mode is for a SSBN and how it is used in ASW evasion tactics.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Diesel submarines make noise. And you do not have a credible defence against those either.

Right now only the Americans have the technology and the capability of tailing and destroying our nuclear submarines. And if it were to come to a nuclear second strike, I have a feeling that looking at where the nukes were headed, the Americans would be standing down. Simply making certain that the Chinese did not intervene.

Yes...but diesel ones can be made quiet by installing software and mechanism, never heard what sort of device will be installed on nuclear reactor operating in nuke sub......They are too noisy and easy to locate...

Wait and watch. Things are gonna get pretty interesting! It's already started some time ago. Read this.....

A handful of US congressmen support creating an independent Balochistan, carved out of mostly Pakistani land.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/02/201222112203196390.html

That was a couple of years ago. But now it's gaining momentum as the U.S. is not too happy with the CPEC as it is going to be a security challenge to them seeing that China will sooner than later be establishing a naval base at Gwadar with the aim of dominating the Strait of Hormuz, the Arabian Sea and the IOR where the American 5th Fleet is stationed. If Balochistan breaks away, so would Gwadar Port and with it the strategic advantage that China would have.

Thus, don't be surprised if the CIA is already at work for establishing an independent Balochistan!

I know Baluchistan is place of interest for US, China, Russia, Iran, Pakistan, Arab States, UK, Israel. We won't be surprised if we see too much hot activities in Baluchistan but Pakistan and China, together with local Baluch are hell bent on bringing prosperity and peace over there.

Pakistan, China, Iran are all on board with each other on Baluchistan issue.

https://defence.pk/threads/china-to-build-mega-oil-pipeline-from-gwadar-to-kashgar.434652/

You put too much trust in navy officials. Much easier to judge on ASW physical assets....and they are quite lacking in PN for the mission of trying to detect and eliminate an SSBN, especially when the Indian navy has a dedicated satellite to monitor Pakistan surface navy and coordinate with India's much larger surface fleet as well.



You have to give us something to consider in the first place. Right now its pretty plain vanilla assets and very little of it too. All countered pretty well by regular Indian navy assets.



Not on silent mode. Pakistan certainly has no blue water assets that can track submarines from port to ocean extensively (even if somehow they can slip past detection by Indian monitoring) like the US and USSR did to each other a few times (but even they could never scale up to get past even 10% of total mission coverage)....

Nor does Pakistan have an undersea sonar network like the americans do for early warning of especially noisy submarines.

Just think about it, you will need a naval asset stationed far far away from Karachi patrolling in Indian waters near an Indian port....and by total random luck catch the (deployed) Indian SSBN leaving port through sonar lock and then be able to keep up with the submarine and outmaneuver it and then somehow neutralise it.....all the while having the Indian navy sit idly by?

Pakistan has some super ASW asset that can do this (and hold off entire Indian navy as well?)



Yes the Americans and Soviets found it so damn easy when they had navies hundred times larger than yours

Please refresh yourself about what silent mode is for a SSBN and how it is used in ASW evasion tactics.

I don't know much about navy stuff. Let me quote @Tank131

 

[Nilgiri]

never heard what sort of device will be installed on nuclear reactor operating in nuke sub......They are too noisy and easy to locate...

Its called a switch and batteries. You do realise that Indian navy will extensively test the noise levels of its SSBNs with all their ASW's and come up with a plan for best evasion plan for the SSBN? They will be testing the SSBN against ASW assets that Pakistan has nothing near the level of.....because these have to stand up to PLAN and others.....not PN.

 

[I.R.A]

There is something wrong with Indians' diet these days ................ they sound too extremist and fanatic. I don't know if some leader of India is looking at this new trend, because if this energy is not channeled properly it will get India destroyed and Indians killed.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Its called a switch and batteries. You do realise that Indian navy will extensively test the noise levels of its SSBNs with all their ASW's and come up with a plan for best evasion plan for the SSBN? They will be testing the SSBN against ASW assets that Pakistan has nothing near the level of.....because these have to stand up to PLAN and others.....not PN.

Given the level of cooperation PN and CN have....you would be far better off in assuming PN got everything/tech/tactics CN possess

 

[Nilgiri]

Given the level of cooperation PN and CN have....you would be far better off in assuming PN got everything/tech/tactics CN possess

Pakistan would have to be hiding a large navy (several times larger especially in deep water capable ASW numbers) for that to happen. You can dream thats the case if you want

But the PN ORBAT as it stands is quite limited. I mean 8 - 10 frigates and 0 destroyers and you want to detect a blue water SSBN with that against a much larger navy? Okie dokie....

Lets bring @Penguin into this discussion too and see what he thinks are Pakistan's chances on effectively hunting an Indian SSBN or two

 

[laphroaig]

Its called a switch and batteries. You do realise that Indian navy will extensively test the noise levels of its SSBNs with all their ASW's and come up with a plan for best evasion plan for the SSBN? They will be testing the SSBN against ASW assets that Pakistan has nothing near the level of.....because these have to stand up to PLAN and others.....not PN.

Thank you. I really did not know where to start with the Pakistani lady.

 

[Nilgiri]

Thank you. I really did not know where to start with the Pakistani lady.

Didn't know @PaklovesTurkiye is female

This changes everything!

 

[laphroaig]

Pakistan would have to be hiding a large navy (several times larger especially in deep water capable ASW numbers) for that to happen. You can dream thats the case if you want

But the PN ORBAT as it stands is quite limited. I mean 8 - 10 frigates and 0 destroyers and you want to detect a blue water SSBN with that against a much larger navy? Okie dokie....

Lets bring @Penguin into this discussion too and see what he thinks are Pakistan's chances on effectively hunting an Indian SSBN or two

Not counting the fact that the SSBN does not need to be in the Arabian Sea either to be able to hit them.

I can just see the Pakistani frigates steaming under full power past the entire Indian Navy, throwing depth charges over the side every nautical mile. Just in case ....