Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[pagans]

I am a Kashmiri

That's great. we can now have a first person account. You live in India or Pakistan (IOK or ***)?

 

[EjazR]

EjazR - it is irrefutable that the rigged elections had caused discontent in Indian Kashmir. Discontent that was exploited by Pakistan to support the seperatists.

We Indians helped the Mukti Bahani - Pakistan being our enemy supported JKLF, Hizbul etc. But the fact was that the Indian Army had not indulged in mass genocide like the Pak army in Bangladesh in 1971. The situation in 1989 was charged. Hindus were being killed in the valley -the chances of mass ethnic cleansing was there. Fortunately this did not happen. I consider the custodial deaths in Kashmir and shooting of protestors as relatively minor and localised acts.

@pagans - Islamic fundamentalists have spoiled the issue in Kashmir today - they are calling for Islamic state etc. The issue of Islam has come up only recently in Kashmir. India sould prevent the radicalisation of Kashmir. The only way for this is to focus on Kashmiryat, secularism and common values with Kashmir.

I agree with you on this and would like to add that the media tends to report "newsworthy items" (aka TRP ratings and values) In Pakistani media, you will never hear of KAshmir muslims in the police and army fighting militants. Or militants attacking 15times more muslims than nonmuslim civilians.

Every single incident is blown out of proportion and a regular newscast on PTV does not end by replaying images of police keeping a check on protesters which are labeled as "army actions". The army overall has done a pretty good job and has prosecuted those involved in HR abuses. It was mainly the CPRF which was less trained and less professional that had a bulk of HR abuse recorded against them. The media will not report the average regular Kashmiri going to work and making a living and contended with his life and family in India although having grouses against the government that we all have related to development and corruption. They will report on the unemployed youth that throws stones on the police. Recently there was a huge protest where rallies much much bigger than ones by Geelani were arranged and they walked all the way to Delhi. Sikhs and Hindus even with their children were protesting agains the government. BUT it was on the pay rise to J&K government transport workers but in some Pakistani media and some youtube clips it was shown as if these were separatists.

So obviously there are perception issues here. But once the governance issues are resolved and as many separatist leaders have indicated about agreeing to a solution very soon with the GoI, I feel optimistic that we will see an end to the Kashmir problem within a few years barring any other major development.

I draw your attention to Balochistan as an example were a similar situation exists but has experienced multiple full fledged insurgencies. Their discontent in many cases are legitimate state concerns like development, too much interference of the army in local affairs e.t.c Compare that to India were only one such has occurred in J&K and that too at the backdrop of Afghan war that was to change world dynamics.

The only concern are the Chinese as it would not be in their regional long term interests that India Pakistan resolve this issue although at the moment all they can do is act as irritants hopefully, but you have to be prepared for the worse.

 

[Barrett]

That's great. we can now have a first person account. You live in India or Pakistan (IOK or ***)?

 

[Windjammer]

but its impaling pakistan alive

It's your assumption, or wish, no one in Pakistan is walking around with headache tablets.

 

[Hulk]

That fully explains the bais.
About you claim of rapes can you list how many happened in 2009. I am asking for 2009 since it being recent.
Backup with neutral links.

Here is what feel is happening. Few people in good number want to seperate from India either for Azadi or Pakistan. They protest for whatever reason and the protest turns violent, the police(Kashmiri) fires/lathicharge to get things under control. Now this police action is same in rest of India and world, but only Kashmiri links it to oprresion. The point being if violent situation arise then police have to control the crowd, if crowd started violence they are to be blamed for end result not police.

These people pelt stone for no reason, they did it at the time of Amarnath issue. I lost respect for them.

If you want azadi does not mean you throw stone to injure a person doing his duty to earn his bread.

If people really want Azadi they do get India bend on knees purely by peaceful means. History tell why great Mahatma was successful while violet freedom fighter around world are not.

To start with if everybody wants freedom then stop voting get the number below 10% that will be first step. Stop paying tax on mass etc etc. If people are not doing it, means numbers are large but not majority.

 

[pagans]

Kashmiris pays very little taxes

 

[paritosh]

Shahadat is the cost of Independence and 90,000 Kashmirees have offered that already. You cannot stop liberation movement by killing more of them. Independence is the fate of Kashmir and it shell be liberated! Inshallah!

well we talk of independence without giving the ground realities much thought.
India was not independent under the Raj because at that time the govt was imposed on us...there were no basic fundamental rights...people weren't allowed to assemble...the civil services exam was insanely difficult for the Indians...improper penal laws...etc.
now tell me Graphican...why do you feel that Kashmir is not independent?
I agree with one of the Indian posters saying that the Kashmiri separatists are not justified in their demands for independence...they are spreading misinformation for vested interests.

 

[DavyJones]

yea EjazR - good analysis.
Unfortunately the whole of Pak thinks Kashmir is under Indian Army rule which kills and maims Kashmiris at will. They equate Indian actions with Israel's in Palestine but the truth is something else.
India has not built settlements to change the demographics in Kashmir. India is not throwing out Kashmiris from their land. We don't treat Kashmiris as enemies but as estranged brothers. I have been to Kashmir in fact t supposedly militant infested regions in Rajauri district. Peace reigns supreme. The Army is in it's barracks. Local people have set up Tata Sky and DishTV sets in villages and are having electricity, water and health support from the Indian army. The LoC fence has effectively blocked infiltrators to a large extent. In fact I went to the LoC and saw the fence (my friend's a captain in the Indian Army). Latest French, Japanese and Israeli monitoring equipment means most areas along the LoC are monitored well.
The army is secular to the core - I visited a Muslim pir bab shrine near their post. In fact the shrine is open to visits from the locals even though it is in a sensitive and strategic position. The army provides for the shrine's upkeep.

 

[paritosh]

Kashmiris pays very little taxes

+ no one from outside Kashmir can buy land or property in Kashmir...+ Kashmir is an alcohol free state

 

[EjazR]

Here is a website run by Indian Kashmiris which addresses news and articles for the entire J&K state. The insight section provides a good way to familiarise the issues in J&K from a pro-Indian Kashmiri perspective, including issues related to Gilgit Baltistan for example and militants forcing and threatning locals to provide logistic support base.

www.jammu-kashmir.com: Insights

 

[Hulk]

Kashmiris pays very little taxes

Can you make me understand this, do you mean they are governed by different law or else.

 

[Hulk]

I want to understan this issue a little more. By population what % of azad Kashmir have relation in Indian Kashmir.

Additionally.
Are there similar amount of protest in Azad Kashmir against India.

What I want to understand is how much people of Azad Kashmir has desire to unite with Indian Kasmir.

 

[sensenreason]

A plebiscite under the already pending U.N resolution will be able to answer all questions.

Yes. Exactly, like Bush asked UNSC to rubberstamp Iraq war...

UN, World Bank and IMF are no longer relevant institutions and surely not held in any respect by any country to solve disputes. Events have left UN far behind.

While there might be UN resolutions on J & K and ***; but to trust them in a psuedo non-anglo-saxon dominated multi polar world is stupidity. These institutions were used by UK/US post second world war to legitimise imperialism; but they are hardly credible now....

Another example of moral bankruptcy of global politics is whats happening in Copenhagen - Climate summit using sham science as exposed by leaked emails....

While your arguements about your position might have their own logic and relevance but am not sure whether you need to hold a plebiscite. Imagine a situation, where J&K chooses Pakistan in a plebiscite. Indians would not find it acceptable.

Simply due to the core ideology of what India stands for...secularism (however flawed and token it might be...) Pakistani people might believe they have a 'principlined' stand and India's stand is geo-political....the reality is exactly the opposite. Mull that over....

 

[EjazR]

^^^Mirpuris which constitute the bulk of Kashmiri diaspora are more Punjabi than Kashmiri. They had to leave their land and take refugee status in UK e.t.c because of flooding of their homes when GoP build a dam. You can identify this in the pictures where ethnic Kashmiris wear Pherans while Mirpuris usually wear punjabi style shalwar kameez.

The Gilgitis and Baltis are closer to Ldakhis in India although you hardly hear much about them. Most of the militant recruitment centre are based in Mirpur or Muzafarabad and these areas provide the bulk of militants who are "ethnic Kashmiris" Other than that you have the crazies from the Afghan war which include other Pakistanis and Afghans and to a lesser extent Arabs as well.

For all intents and purposes the local militancy had been finished as JKLF had ordered a ceasefire and given to peaceful struggle in '95 after Pakistani security establishment was not happy with their aim to establish a united independent J&K. That's when we started to see suicide bombings, assassinations, targeting civilians including non-muslim minorities and even attacks in mosques where muslim children were killed and kidnapping and murdering of tourists. Things that had never happened before in the local militancy chapter.

 

[EjazR]

You can't have a free and fair plebescite until and unless the United Jihad council is shutdown and there are no militants threaning the locals. Then a plebescite has to be conducted on both sides including in PAkistan. Infact, Pakistan can go ahead and conduct a plebescite in area it controls to act as a pressure to India, but will they do it?

And ofcourse China has to return it illegally occupies like the Shaksam valley given away by Pakistan and Aksai Chin. Maybe Pakistan can use its good will to get these territories back?

Personally if there is a free and fair plebescite with only India and Pakistan as option as per UN resolution, its most likely that India will win. Geelani and his small group will have to listen to majoirty opinion. So will the people who live in Gilgit Baltistan e.t.c.
This is after looking at the opinion survey that I posted earlier. Infact this is also the opinion of the Irish professor and expert in conflict studies who oversaw this study on www.peacepolls.org

Moreover, even if we ignore the legal argument of ascension which is what matters in an International court anyways. Sheikh Abdulla was by far the most popular leader and when the local people of J&K elected his government in 54 they basically ratified his resolution that was passed and stated that J&K state has acceded to India.