Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well, if Pakistan could have controlled the 'non state actors' from the tribal regions back in '47 we wouldn't have come to this and if we did, then India would clearly be the aggressor.

The UNSC resolutions calling for a plebsicite and calling J&K disputed, agreed to by India, Pakistan and the majority of the global community, occurred in the aftermath of the war in 1947-48.

Pakistan has violated several treaties itself, so lets get off the high horse shall we.

Ahh, but the issue I raised was about the immorality of the Indian position in J&K given that you were arguing in favor of India not being tied down by morality, not just any treaty.

Also, if tomorrow, as was the case with the nuclear deal, India is 'allowed' to have nuclear weapons and Pakistan isn't, since you guys are all about following the law in Pakistan, would you give up your nukes?

That is a rather hypothetical question with a lot of if ands or but's - I find it hard to believe that any Pakistani government will accept civilian nuclear technology and completely remove its nuclear weapons capability (see Pakistan's concerns at the Conference on Disarmament - ArmsControlWonk: Pakistan Blocks Consensus in CD).

I believe that we should settle the issue, I don't want to get into it on this thread. Kindly refer to my comment here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...i-honest-indian-perspective-9.html#post464118

and here

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...i-honest-indian-perspective-9.html#post464315

I'll check out the comments - thanks for linking to them.

anyways, this is a law enforcement issue. These people have no right to go around telling what other people to do. They can't decide if girls should wear hijabs or not, that's up to the girls themselves. This crap won't fly in India. Some jokers tried to ban jeans earlier, they were put in their place rather quickly.

I agree completely - my post was only in response to the argument that the India forces in J&K should adopt 'immoral policing'.

 

[afriend]

What does any of that have to do with my point?

I am merely pointing out that spitfighters argument about 'not being restrained by moral policing' doesn't really matter since the entire Indian position on Kashmir, in denying the right of self-determination, is immoral.

How does it not matter, both are different issues, and if you connect one with another, then whole things that pakistan and india did would be comming into this thread, pakistan's support of jihadists and brutality in bangladesh..etc all those can be talked about, so lets keep this thread free from that.

 

[Spitfighter]

And we're the ones being lectured on abiding the UNSC resolutions. Why not show us how its done and practice what you preach? Maybe that will lend some credibility to your claims.

How can one harp about the 'Indian occupation' while the GoP is busy distributing parts of Kashmir to China?

I think Pakistan has made its stand clear now. It will be interesting to see how the 'freedom fighters' they've nurtured for so long react to this move.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And we're the ones being lectured on abiding the UNSC resolutions. Why not show us how its done and practice what you preach? Maybe that will lend some credibility to your claims.

Its not being integrated into the country as a "fifth State or Province", as the Indians have done, now is it?

The autonomy package for G-B is akin to the Azad Kashmir autonomy.

So please do learn how its done.

 

[Patriot]

Yes, we will be worried when common Kashmiris protest in Azad Kashmir like they do in Jammu and Kashmir..Politicans well what can you say about them.

 

[Spitfighter]

Its not being integrated into the country as a "fifth State or Province", as the Indians have done, now is it?

The autonomy package for G-B is akin to the Azad Kashmir autonomy.

So please do learn how its done.

And what about the parts that Pakistan has 'gifted' to China?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And what about the parts that Pakistan has 'gifted' to China?

The region was barren and unpopulated when the agreement with China on the Trans-Karakoram Tract was inked, and the agreement indicates that final resolution of the territory is dependent upon the resolution of the Kashmir dispute:

Article 6 The two parties have agreed that after the settlement of the Kashmir dispute between Pakistan and India, the sovereign authority concerned will reopen negotiations with the Government of the People's Republic of China on the boundary as described in Article. Two of the present agreement,

 

[IndiaNews98]

It is clear that the Pakistani part of Kashmir is much worse off than the Indian one. The only difference is that they don't have to handle the Pakistan-sponsored insurgency that has made life hell on the Indian side.

 

[Omar1984]

It is clear that the Pakistani part of Kashmir is much worse off than the Indian one. The only difference is that they don't have to handle the Pakistan-sponsored insurgency that has made life hell on the Indian side.

And when did you visit Pakistan's Azad Kashmir?

When did you hear of troops firing at defenseless people in Pakistan's Azad Kashmir, and we know how common protests against Indian rule is in Indian Occupied Kashmir and how Indian troops fire at defenseless Kashmiris.

Ever since Azad Kashmir (including Gilgit-Baltstan) became part of Pakistan there has never been one single protest by the people of the region against being part of Pakistan.

Also we dont see thousands of troops all over Pakistan's Azad Kashmir unlike in Indian Occupied Kashmir where there as much indian troops as there are Kashmiri civilians.

 

[humblehobbes]

Dint the preconditions ask for the Pakistani Army to vacate Kashmir? OR am i missing something here? This was never heeded by Pakistan! Then why is there a question of the resolutions when the preconditions were not met!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Dint the preconditions ask for the Pakistani Army to vacate Kashmir? OR am i missing something here? This was never heeded by Pakistan! Then why is there a question of the resolutions when the preconditions were not met!

Again, that has been answered in the UNSC resolutions sticky, which you really should read if you are intent on pursuing this line of argument and respond there.

 

[IndiaNews98]

Of course there have been protests in Pakistani Kashmir - plenty of protests, rallies etc. etc. But once they experienced the heavy hand of Pakistani Army, they all fizzled out because there was no outside force to sustain it.

In India's case, we have an entire state of 160 million whose propoganda machinery works non-stop to create hatred and resentment for Indians in Kashmir, and huge amounts of cash, weapons, propoganda material that flows in.

That is why, Pakistani Kashmir, inspite of being worse off in almost every human indicator, remains relatively, far more peaceful.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Of course there have been protests in Pakistani Kashmir - plenty of protests, rallies etc. etc. But once they experienced the heavy hand of Pakistani Army, they all fizzled out because there was no outside force to sustain it.

In India's case, we have an entire state of 160 million whose propoganda machinery works non-stop to create hatred and resentment for Indians in Kashmir, and huge amounts of cash, weapons, propoganda material that flows in.

That is why, Pakistani Kashmir, inspite of being worse off in almost every human indicator, remains relatively, far more peaceful.

We all saw and read about the massive protests in IOK against Indian occupation - any sources to back up any of the above, about massive protests against 'Pakistani occupation and Military suppression', and all the rest or is it just your opinion?

 

[IndiaNews98]

There have been several protests over the years. Admittedly, the were nowhere as massive as the anti-Indian ones, thanks to complete control over media and speech in the Pakistani-Kashmir, and the absence of any foreign country stoking the flames.

However, here are the news reports of interest:

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Asia Times

End reign of terror, deprivation in Gilgit, Baltistan: EU-Kashmir Alliance

Additionally, here's an excerpt from the UNHCR report on that region
UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]

Here are some excerpts worth reading:

While the Pakistani authorities have readily provided support to armed militants fighting in India, they have been less tolerant of groups that espouse Kashmiri self-determination, including primarily the All Parties National Alliance (APNA), a conglomerate of 12 small proindependence Kashmiri groups. Nationalist and proindependence groups in Pakistani-administered Kashmir, including the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), the Gilgit-Baltistan United Movement, and others, continued in 2007 to agitate for increased political representation. In October 2007, Musharraf proposed a number of reforms to the governance structure for the Northern Areas, but most groups rejected them as insufficient, saying they lacked a solid constitutional foundation and guarantees of judicial independence. By year's end, the imposition of a state of emergency in Pakistan on November 3, which led to widespread restrictions on political rights as well as the postponement of planned legislative elections, had led to a worsening of political freedom in Azad Kashmir, while Musharraf's planned reforms for the Northern Areas were put off indefinitely.

The appropriation of land in the Northern Areas by non-Kashmiri migrants from elsewhere in Pakistan, with the tacit encouragement of the federal government and army, has led to dwindling economic opportunities for the local population and an increase in sectarian tension between the majority Shia Muslims and a growing number of Sunnis. Ethnic violence first erupted in 1988, with riots in Gilgit that killed at least 150 people, and it continues to be a concern.

As detailed by Human Rights Watch (HRW) in a 2006 report on the region, individuals and political parties who do not support Kashmir's accession to Pakistan are barred from participating in the political process, standing for election, taking a job with any government institution, or accessing educational institutions. At least 60 proindependence candidates who belonged to the JKLF, the APNA, and smaller political parties were barred from participating in the July 2006 Azad Kashmir legislative assembly elections. Overall, HRW noted that the election process was flawed and "greeted with widespread charges of poll rigging by opposition political parties and independent analysts."

The Pakistani government uses the constitution and other laws to curb freedom of speech on a variety of subjects, including the status of Kashmir and incidents of sectarian violence. In recent years, authorities have banned several local newspapers from publishing and have detained or otherwise harassed Kashmiri journalists. In March 2007, the government suspended its advertisements in publications by the Dawn English-language media group after it reported on a possible resurgence of official support for militants in Kashmir. In April 2007, Dawn reported that the editor and publisher of the banned monthly Kargil International magazine were indicted on sedition and defamation charges for publishing a proindependence article in 2004.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) operates throughout Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas and engages in extensive surveillance (particularly of proindependence groups and the press), as well as arbitrary arrests and detentions. In some instances, those detained by the ISI, the police, or the security forces are tortured, and several cases of death in custody have been reported.

 

[Omar1984]

India protests Pakistan plan for "occupied" Kashmir areas


New Delhi, Aug 31 : India has taken serious note of the Pakistan government approving a self-governance package for the Northern Areas, renaming it as 'Gilgit-Baltistan', which is part of the Pak-occupied-Kashmir.

The areas named by Pakistan on August 30 are part of Jammu and Kashmir which is an integral part of India, a senior official of the Ministry of External Affairs said.

The 'Gilgit-Baltistan Empowerment and Self Governance Order 2009', announced by Pakistan Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani at a news conference, is also aimed at giving the Northern Areas ''full internal autonomy'', so that it would have rights akin to those of Pakistan's four provinces.

The development was very serious and was unacceptable to India, the official said.

Paksitan Federal minister Farooq Sattar had told reporters in Islamabad that the Northern Areas would go to polls in the next three months to elect a government like the one in Azad Kashmir. He said a cabinet committee will be constituted to ''remove hurdles for merging Gilgit-Baltistan into Pakistan.'' The Gilgit-Baltistan area is strategically located. In the west, it borders the North West Frontier Province, in the north, it borders Afghanistan and in the east it borders with Jammu and Kashmir.

--UNI



In the east, Gilgit-Baltistan borders China, in the south it borders Jammu and Kashmir.

And yes its very strategically located so try to take it from us if you can india