Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[notsuperstitious]

It is not an accusation it is a reality. Gujrat or any other state don't holds 700000+ troops but IOK does. Kashmir public safety act is imposed in IOK not in Gujrat or maharashtra or any other Indian mainland.

You are trying to compare apple with oranges. This is not a justification that since their are no killings in other parts of India on protests so it is Kashmiris who are responsible. You can't expect something good from those who lived their lives under the shadows of guns their lands occupied by foreigners.

I just gave you a link that there IS lethal force by Indian police when protesters resort to violence. And thats not the only case, it happens all the time. So I DID NOT say there are no deaths, I said there are no deaths where protests are peaceful. You just refused to read it.

Kashmir has more troops because of the terrible violence unleashed by the separatists and their pakistani backers and other pakistani non state actors AKA terrorists in Kashmir. Govt officials, Hindu Kashmiri pundits, pro india politicians and anyone who did not tow the pro pakistan line was gunned down. Right from 1947 Pakistan has done the job of making the situation in Kashmir worse, and now they are complaining there are that many troops in Kashmir, of course there are, and of course that bothers you. Because those troops are there for you.

 

[Areesh]

No. Just because I proved so.

I have also proved that the world is a cube.

 

[Areesh]

I just gave you a link that there IS lethal force by Indian police when protesters resort to violence. And thats not the only case, it happens all the time. So I DID NOT say there are no deaths, I said there are no deaths where protests are peaceful. You just refused to read it.

Kashmir has more troops because of the terrible violence unleashed by the separatists and their pakistani backers and other pakistani non state actors AKA terrorists in Kashmir. Govt officials, Hindu Kashmiri pundits and anyone who did not tow the pro pakistan line was gunned down. Right from 1947 Pakistan has done the job of making the situation in Kashmir worse, and now they are complaining there are than many troops in Kashmir, of course there are, and of course that bothers you. Because those troops are there for you.

The answer that I was expecting anyways I think this link answers it all.

Indian People’s Tribunal Report On Human Rights Violations In IOK

 

[Patrician]

If this is what you call proof then I can prove Gravitation does not exist .

What part of my proof did you not understand my friend?

I said "India is willing to kill is many required to preserve its territorial integrity"

My proof is 'logic' and if you still do not understand then let me elaborate:

1. India has enormous amount of resources at its disposal.
2. India has a huuuuuge military at its command to keep Kashmir firmly under Indian control
3. India has world opinion going for it in the current geo-political scenario.
4. UN/US/China none of them wants to get into the quagmire of kashmir especially after India proved its relevance during their worst economic crisis after the great depression.
5. This is the most important, Indian public and a whole billion plus of them permit their govt. to do whatever it can, I repeat, whatever it can in order to keep Kashmir under firm Indian control.

Now tell me, what factors do you envisage working for you in this misguided and bungled up battle plan of yours?

I'm only asking you to change your battle plan since your current one doesn't seem to be working in your favour.

You will have to learn to compromise.

Pakistan will have to compromise.
india will have to compromise.

No redrawing of borders is going to take place unless:

1. India permits so
2. Somebody compells India by use of force (read war)

So in my honest opinion, greater autonomy for Kashmir is the only solution.

Other than that, there is war. And in war, I do not have to remind you again that which party has nearly unlimited amount of resources at its disposal.

My friend, its nearly impossible to unseat the power of the state without using open war.

And nobody is supporting you for open war in the current geo-political-economic scenario.

So learn to compromise. Fanaticism and loudmouth blabbering will not solve your problem.

Many of your problems are genuine and most Indians will accept that. Human rights violations must cease and everything including greater autonomy must be grated to kashmir.

But complete independence from India or even Pakistan for that matter is a far fetched idea which will get you nowhere but only away from ground reality.

 

[EjazR]

I am not defending wrongs done by the army or other security forces. I thoroughly condemn them as would the many Indians just like you quoted in your posts. And I think that once the situation stablises and UJC is disbanded in Muzaffarabad AFSPA should be removed just as it was not there before `1989. Infact, it has already been removed from Buddhist majority Leh and muslim majority KArgil districts. So there is precedence that AFSPA can be removed in other parts of J&K state.

I completely understand that FCR should be repealed after things get settleed in FATA. But was there any reason to have FCR before the current times? I am just showing how 4 million people in FATA live under FCR since independance which is much more draconian compared to the 20 years that AFSPA is in place in Kashmir in the context of PAkistani based militants wreacking havoc in Kashmir. Accepting the fact lets say for the moment that IA is some evil entity, you don't expect IA to spread rose petals when militants cross over and start subversive attacks like what happened in the 90s.

 

[notsuperstitious]

The answer that I was expecting anyways I think this link answers it all.

Indian People’s Tribunal Report On Human Rights Violations In IOK

LOL, and your response is predictable too. The issue was of violent protests. Anyway.

There are human rights abuses by separatists and terrorists too.

K P S Gill: The Kashmiri Pandits: An Ethnic Cleansing the World Forgot -- Islamist Extremism & Terrorism in South Asia
Rights Abuses Behind Kashmir Fighting | Human Rights Watch
BERNAMA - More Muslims Killed In Kashmir By Militants
Congressman Frank Pallone, Jr. (NJ06) - Pallone Introduces Resolution Condemning Human Rights Violations Against Kashmiri Pandits
Bill Text - 109th Congress (2005-2006) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)
Asia Times
News : European Parliamentarians express concern for Gilgit Baltistan

 

[Areesh]

LOL, and your response is predictable too. The issue was of violent protests. Anyway.

There are human rights abuses by separatists and terrorists too.

K P S Gill: The Kashmiri Pandits: An Ethnic Cleansing the World Forgot -- Islamist Extremism & Terrorism in South Asia
Rights Abuses Behind Kashmir Fighting | Human Rights Watch
BERNAMA - More Muslims Killed In Kashmir By Militants
Congressman Frank Pallone, Jr. (NJ06) - Pallone Introduces Resolution Condemning Human Rights Violations Against Kashmiri Pandits
Bill Text - 109th Congress (2005-2006) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)
Asia Times
News : European Parliamentarians express concern for Gilgit Baltistan

So are you justifying the acts of your army with those militants whose loyalty and ethnicity isn't confirm. God knows whether how many of those are Pakistani supported and how many Indian intelligence agencies supported terrorists. Like come one yaar the "brave" Indian army should show some grace in comparison of these militants.

It is Rashtrya Rifles who has the dignity to **** 80 years women. Don't how many militants have reached this piety. You are again comparing apples with oranges.

 

[Areesh]

I completely understand that FCR should be repealed after things get settleed in FATA. But was there any reason to have FCR before the current times?

Yup you are right but these laws were in placed to put law and order in the law less regions of FATA. They were definitely not their to keep occupied FATA or any thing like this. We can say that Govts didn't give importance to this issue and didn't feel it necessary to amend them. Anyways the GOP has no problem in abolishing these laws.

 

[EjazR]

Thankyou for the breakdown........but i think my opinion holds true that the muslims dont want india while the hindus do.

Well the issue is that only the valley muslims want indepednance. So its not just muslims, more specifically the valley muslims.

That in a way makes the movement weaker as it is seen as a muslim sepratist movement. Mirwaiz and other realise that and keep insisting that this movement is for all religions but the ground reality is different.

 

[somebozo]

ironic?? Even the family member dont agree?

Ali Sofi is said to be close to Mustafa Kamal, former minister and uncle of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah.

 

[EjazR]

Just a reminder to those who think that police don't kill rioters in shoot to kill under curfews in other parts of India. In KAshmir you have thousands of massive protests in 2008 and still casualty count was lower there as compared to other parts in India.

This is a nation wide problem and not restricted to Kashmir. Maybe world should also show concern of the many more Gujjars, AP residents e.t.c. killed in police firing as well?

The Hindu : Front Page : Srinagar Army deployment driven by panic?

National problem

Fatalities caused by police firing have been far fewer in Jammu and Kashmir than in many other States less threatened by large-scale protests. Police in Uttar Pradesh killed 104 civilians and injured 145 in 608 incidents of police firing in 2008. Maharashtra reported 47 civilian deaths in 89 incidents of police firing.

Police in several States, the data shows, are more likely than their Jammu and Kashmir counterparts to open fire to kill. In 2007, 30 civilians were killed in Andhra Pradesh in 45 incidents of police firing; eight died in Jammu and Kashmir in 47 incidents. Back in 2006, the Andhra Pradesh police killed 72 civilians in 79 incidents of firing, while 138 Chhattisgarh residents were shot dead in 213 incidents.

Part of the problem, experts say, lies in deteriorating riot-control skills. “Indian police forces,” notes the New Delhi-based Institute for Conflict Management's Ajai Sahni, “used to be internationally regarded for their crowd control skills. Police managing agitations in Punjab or Assam quite routinely dispersed crowds of tens of thousands of people without opening fire.”

“The fact that police forces across the country are using lethal force to disperse a few hundred people throwing stones,” Mr. Sahni argues, “shows something has gone badly wrong.”

 

[notsuperstitious]

Well since pro India leaders were in the mob, this proves the mob was incited by the Koran rumors and was NOT anti India

What a waste of life.

 

[civfanatic]

What part of my proof did you not understand my friend?

I said "India is willing to kill is many required to preserve its territorial integrity"

My proof is 'logic' and if you still do not understand then let me elaborate:

1. India has enormous amount of resources at its disposal.
2. India has a huuuuuge military at its command to keep Kashmir firmly under Indian control
3. India has world opinion going for it in the current geo-political scenario.
4. UN/US/China none of them wants to get into the quagmire of kashmir especially after India proved its relevance during their worst economic crisis after the great depression.
5. This is the most important, Indian public and a whole billion plus of them permit their govt. to do whatever it can, I repeat, whatever it can in order to keep Kashmir under firm Indian control.

Now tell me, what factors do you envisage working for you in this misguided and bungled up battle plan of yours?

I'm only asking you to change your battle plan since your current one doesn't seem to be working in your favour.

You will have to learn to compromise.

Pakistan will have to compromise.
india will have to compromise.

No redrawing of borders is going to take place unless:

1. India permits so
2. Somebody compells India by use of force (read war)

So in my honest opinion, greater autonomy for Kashmir is the only solution.

Other than that, there is war. And in war, I do not have to remind you again that which party has nearly unlimited amount of resources at its disposal.

My friend, its nearly impossible to unseat the power of the state without using open war.

And nobody is supporting you for open war in the current geo-political-economic scenario.

So learn to compromise. Fanaticism and loudmouth blabbering will not solve your problem.

Many of your problems are genuine and most Indians will accept that. Human rights violations must cease and everything including greater autonomy must be grated to kashmir.

But complete independence from India or even Pakistan for that matter is a far fetched idea which will get you nowhere but only away from ground reality.

Nice to see you accept that India's control of Kashmir is based on power alone . But the two charectetristics of power make it rather unreliable arbiterer ie relativity of power and dynamic nature of power.

 

[Patrician]

Why are you proposing him to post off topic and get banned for it. Don't you like his presence on this forum.

Anyways you can start separate threads for such issues and the Pakistani members would definitely answer you.

Areesh my friend, no matter how hard we Indians and Pakistanis try but ghoom phir ke baat wahin aa jaati hai dost.

Kashmir is a very emotive issue for all of us.

Every other day there is a new thread, sometimes 2-3 of them, related to the ongoing trouble in Kashmir.

What else do you expect us to say other than not stating the ground reality as it is.

We can't just say RIP and move on you know. This is the fate of every thread on Kashmir and it is quite understandable.

Unless we let go of this deep rooted hatred for each other, it will be impossible for both Indians and Pakistanis to avoid mentioning the root causes and the grond reality again and again.

We have just so much hatred for each other.

@ mods I'm sorry for it was never my purpose to derail the thread and in fact, deep down I and perhaps everyone knows that this will be the fate of every thread related to kashmir/pakistan/india in every such thread of every such forum on the internet.

We have just so much hatred for each other and that's what saddens me to the core.

Regards

Peace

 

[ironman]

And who is this Pro India NC ??

Do not target missionary property, control emotions: Geelani​

Strongly condemning the alleged burning of the Quran in the US, the chairman of the breakaway Hurriyat Conference (HC) Syed Ali Shah Geelani today urged to control their emotions
and not to target the property of Christian missionary in the Kashmir valley.

''We condemn those involved in setting ablaze the missionary school at Tangmarg,'' Mr Geelani said here this afternoon.

He called upon the people of the Valley to exercise restraint over the alleged desecration of Holy Quran in the United States (US).

''I can understand that emotions of Kashmiri Muslims have been hurt by the desecration of the Holy Quran,'' he said adding at the same time, we have to control our emotions and not create such a situation which could give a chance to vested interests to defame Islam and our movement.

In a bid to calm down angry protesters in the Kashmir valley, who took to the streets against this act, Mr Geelani addressed the protesters through telephones in various parts of the Valley.

He said the Quran does not approve of attacks on the minority communities or their establishments.

''I urge the Muslims to protect the members of minority community and their religious places. We should at any cost maintain the age old communal harmony and brotherhood for which Kashmir is known world over,'' he said .

Mr Geelani hailed the role of Christian missionaries in dissemination of education in the valley.

Strongly condemning the desecration, he said such acts show the frustration of US and its allies over the popularity of Islam.

''The Holy Quran is in our hearts. By desecration of Quran, the US has accepted its defeat and shown its cowardice,'' he added.

http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20100913/1586321.html