Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[Hulk]

I have a suggestion we should pick these separatist and send them to remote place and do nothing. Just move Gellani out of Kashmir for 1 year maybe TN or Port Blair or somewhere remote. Also identify the regular stone pelters and put them Bihar jail. This is the solution. I am positive we will be out of this, ISI is working with separatist on new tricks, we will also learn to handle them for sure.

 

[DesiGuy]

Why india banned all the media activities ? it means india don't want to show the real face to world.
this will happen when you crush people by power .. Kashmir will free inshALLAH very Soon..



Should have tell this same to china during riots in xinjiang!!!

but no, as china is friend to pakistan.


all this crying or at least pretending is nothing for pakistan government. give them a chance and they will take over Kashmir without thinking how many will die at than.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, I can show several threads where you have supported JuD for its "work" and now the GoP has banned it. So lack of evidence is not holding you govt. back when Pak is under fire...

The JuD has been 'banned' since the UNSC sanctions on it - and yes, it is also fact that the JuD ran several charitable works such as clinics, schools, orphanages etc. which is commendable work - but what does anything in your post have to do with my post you responded to?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

We all would like to see the source to that claim, please. IIRC the torture claims were proven to be true.

Lies out of control September 1999​

A couple of months after the Kargil conflict, some intense soul-searching by the Indian print and electronic media is revealing that much of the national press meekly toed the government line and fanned war hysteria at the cost of objectivity and professional ethics.

Prominent journalists have come out with scathing indictments of the Indian media and their contents are indeed shocking for what it portends.

The Times of India’s Sidddharth Varadarajan writes that Indian Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh’s allegation—made at the height of the Kargil conflict—that the bodies of six dead Indian soldiers were "severely mutilated" by Pakistanis, was never substantiated. "Virtually every newspaper carried the gory details released by an Indian wire service without waiting for independent confirmation. Such confirmation never arrived... During the war itself, at least two newspapers received information that the allegation was highly exaggerated—probably only one of the bodies bore signs of mutilation. But the journalists who received the information, chose to remain silent."

Varadarajan has also revealed that a newspaper and a magazine received reports from its correspondents at the war-front that Indian soldiers had mutilated the dead bodies of Pakistani soldiers in retaliation. But after heated editorial debates, it was decided to kill these stories—at least until the fighting was over.

"The Indian media was on test as to how fairly it would report and interpret. But overall, it failed miserably," says columnist Praful Bidwai. "The general style of reports was: ’50 Pakistanis killed and 11 gallant Indian soldiers laid down their lives’. So our boys became dedicated soldiers and Pakistanis barbarians; our leaders are mature politicians and theirs prisoners of dark forces. It is upto the government to say all that. Why should the media?"

N. Ram, editor of Frontline magazine, said that the distinction between the reporter and the armyman was blurred during the fighting. "Objectivity was the biggest casualty in the coverage of the Kargil conflict," according to another weekly, Outlook, which also said that journalists chose to become participants instead of remaining objective observers in the revered war correspondent tradition.

Analysts have also accused ‘independent’ TV news channels of becoming a propaganda wing of the state by suppressing the truth and glamourising war. Giving instances of censorship and manipulation, Bidwai said that recycled stock pictures were frequently presented as live footage.

Another commentator, Sagarika Ghose, wrote that no attempt was made by print or TV journalists "to scrutinise the role of the military from the citizens’ point of view". TV, she said, has a duty to make sure that legions of jobless young men don’t unthinkingly give themselves to the army in order to die for their country because of a false bravado. "We were shown [puzzlingly] brave parents promising to send more sons to the front if need be. What about parents who were sad? What about parents who cried and said I want this war to stop and I don’t want my son to die?"

Analysts said that even if soldiers in Kargil couldn’t voice their doubts about the war before television cameras, reporters should have dutifully paraphrased their fears to project a balanced picture. The Indian media also failed to question the official figure of 410 dead and 594 injured in six weeks of intense fighting in one of the world’s most treacherous battlegrounds. "How is it possible that casualties on the Pakistani side were higher—as India claims—when they had all the advantage of higher ground? The Indians should have suffered higher casualties than the Pakistanis," said Arthur Max, New Delhi bureau chief of Associated Press.

Another senior journalist of The Times of India, Jug Suraiya criticised the coverage of the shooting of a Pakistani plane in the Kutch region soon after the Kargil conflict. Wrote Suraiya: "Was the wreckage of the Pakistani reconnaissance aircraft really retrieved from Indian territory or, as circumstantial evidence indicated, was it salvaged from across the border to give the prime minister a vote-catching photo opportunity?"

"The suppression of truth...and the dissemination of half-truths and innuendoes did not save lives. All it did was undermine the reputation of the Indian media," warned Varadarajan. Perhaps the most insightful comment came from Seema Mustafa, political editor of The Asian Age, who pointed out that the Kargil conflict exposed the warts and the moles the Indian media has managed to camouflage over the years.

Himal Southasian/News Archive

=================

The return of six tortured bodies of Indian soldiers by Pakistan on June 10, 1999, is an incident,108 which, in addition to inflaming passions (the perceived force multiplier effect), also revealed the loss of restraint and objectivity in the media. Siddharth Vardarajan observes that:

Virtually every newspaper carried the gory details released by an Indian wire service without waiting for independent confirmation. Such confirmation never arrived…. probably only one of the bodies bore signs of mutilation…​

The issue here is not about the veracity of the torture. To manage emotions and balance them efficaciously with judicious observation is a hallmark of conflict reportage. The semantics of reportage in this case led to a proliferation of exaggerated stories about the mutilation, since certain sections of the media presumed that to contradict or question would appear unpatriotic or anti-national:

All of this is shocking and deeply reprehensible. Nevertheless, it does not amount to mutilation…. But the mutilation story – which so inflamed passions in India – remained in print because we (emphasis added) felt that to contradict the army would be unpatriotic and demoralizing.​

The Media in Terror

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Any Iota of proof about the above statement. Aren't you just trolling ??

Any iota of proof that the alleged 'intercept' is not one faked by the Indian authorities?

 

[blueoval79]

Any iota of proof that the alleged 'intercept' is not one faked by the Indian authorities?

Any iota of proof that the intercept is faked?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Any iota of proof that the intercept is faked?

Since you have no evidence to support the veracity of these alleged intercepts, nor can I negate them - the article is better discarded as an unverifiable piece of work.

However, these reports of the alleged intercepts are from the Indian authorities and Indian media, and as pointed out earlier, their histrionics about Pakistani institutions being involved in the Mumbai attacks, without any evidence whatsoever, indicate a pattern of deception, lies and propaganda to malign the other side in order to further their objectives.

In the current situation in Kashmir, the Indian authorities have every motive to malign the other side and try and paint these protests as anything but spontaneous and a reflection of deep disenchantment with Indian occupation and subjugation of Kashmiris.

 

[blueoval79]

Since you have no evidence to support the veracity of these alleged intercepts, nor can I negate them - the article is better discarded as an unverifiable piece of work.

Exactly... the problem the truth will never come out..and both sides will continue to blame each other....

But One thing to be noted is ...that there is no counter to this intercept theory coming from the so called separatists as well...so the common logic goes ...if you don't reply to the allegation ...the chances are that the allegations are valid.

However, these reports of the alleged intercepts are from the Indian authorities and Indian media, and as pointed out earlier, their histrionics about Pakistani institutions being involved in the Mumbai attacks, without any evidence whatsoever, indicate a pattern of deception, lies and propaganda to malign the other side in order to further their objectives.

Well....then the other side has all the right to counter the allegations with proofs that the allegations are a hoax..but that has not happened yet....so I would rather wait and see how things play out.

In the current situation in Kashmir, the Indian authorities have every motive to malign the other side and try and paint these protests as anything but spontaneous and a reflection of deep disenchantment with Indian occupation and subjugation of Kashmiris.

On the other hand if the so called separatist leaders are unable to prove that the allegations are fake ....this makes India's claim of foreign involvement stronger..... and makes India case stronger..that its not the Kashmiris who are having issues but the forces across the border are instigating the problems on this side.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Exactly... the problem the truth will never come out..and both sides will continue to blame each other....

But One thing to be noted is ...that there is no counter to this intercept theory coming from the so called separatists as well...so the common logic goes ...if you don't reply to the allegation ...the chances are that the allegations are valid.



Well....then the other side has all the right to counter the allegations with proofs that the allegations are a hoax..but that has not happened yet....so I would rather wait and see how things play out.




On the other hand if the so called separatist leaders are unable to prove that the allegations are fake ....this makes India's claim of foreign involvement stronger..... and makes India case stronger..that its not the Kashmiris who are having issues but the forces across the border are instigating the problems on this side.

It is a logical fallacy to try and 'prove a negative' - in other words, you cannot prove something does not exist, you can only prove something exists.

Theologically this amounts to the burden of proof being on those claiming God exists - if He exists, then there must be proof he exists. It is not up to the atheist to prove God does not exist. The same principle applies to 'innocent till proven guilty'. If you committed a crime, then there must be evidence of that crime and evidence that the crime was committed by you.

Therefore, if these intercepts were indeed of militants and not just propaganda, it is up to the GoI to prove that the account is true.

 

[EjazR]

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, calling in the army is going backwards. We are suppose to move towards a demilitarization of Kashmir and this is like handing over a victory to separatists to show that Kashmir is under occupation.

Already the Colonel and other Army officers and Kashmiris involved in the Machil fake encounter have been arrested. They should be taken to their logical conclusion.

The Army should be moved out back again asap and even the CRPF should be withdrawn. The J&K police should raise a separate riot control squad and that should tackle protests that turn violent.

The Hindu : Front Page : “Army's stay in Kashmir is not for too long”

NEW DELHI: Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram on Thursday expressed the hope that the Army would not be required in the Kashmir Valley for too long and appealed to the people to observe curfew restrictions.

While a major burden of patrolling and law enforcement was being shouldered by the police and the Central Reserve Police Force, the Army was on standby in case there was any need for its deployment, he said.

“The Army was deployed at the request of the Jammu and Kashmir government. I am not at liberty to disclose where it has been deployed. But I can assure that most of the places affected are still being patrolled and curfew enforced by the State police and paramilitary forces,” he told reporters.

He stressed that the purpose of moving in the Army was to “serve as a deterrent.” The Army would be in Kashmir “as long as it is necessary” to deal with the situation there. “But I sincerely hope that it will not be necessary for too long.”

Mr. Chidambaram emphasised that people should not come out of their homes during curfew and indulge in stone-throwing.

“I appeal to the Jammu and Kashmir people to observe curfew and stay indoors. Curfew is in place for a couple of days. I am sure the State government will be able to relax it in a couple of days,” he said.

“Parents should ensure that their children remain indoors. It is the responsibility of parents,” he added.

 

[S_O_C_O_M]

Musharraf was at brink of Kashmir solution: India​

Updated at: 0850 PST, Wednesday, July 07, 2010

HOUSTON – Raja Zahid Akhter Khanzada: The president Indian Supreme Court Bar Association (ISCBA), the chairman Kashmir Committee and a member of Rajeya Sabha Ram Jethmalani disclosed Tuesday Kashmir issue could have been long resolved peacefully if General Musharrf, the then Pakistani President, would remain in power for a little longer, Geo news reported.

Judiciary has no power to meddle with constitution legislated by a parliament, he observed.

He was talking to Jang/Geo news here in Houston city of Texas after attending a convention hosted by Sindhi Association of North America (SANA) on Tuesday.

Pervez Musharraf was at brink of resolving Kashmir issue practically before being destabilized by political turmoil in Pakistan, sending automatically the matter in limbo again, he revealed.

He said, “It is no longer a secret now that president Musharraf sent us a document carrying acceptable recommendations and proposals for solution of Kashmir Issue for two sides.”

“Subsequently, I myself, worked on those proposals being chairman of Kashmir Committee, made slight changes and produced them before mass representatives”, he said adding, “but time did not permit Musharraf.”

He hoped Kashmir Row would be resolved soon.










Musharraf was at brink of Kashmir solution: India

 

[blueoval79]

It is a logical fallacy to try and 'prove a negative' - in other words, you cannot prove something does not exist, you can only prove something exists.

Well in this case the proof exists...and the charged has to prove that the evidence is fake.....and for that the one needs to come out and say its a fake and prove it that its a fake.....the law and common man will see the proof ..even if it is cooked..unless and until the proof is not countered.

Theologically this amounts to the burden of proof being on those claiming God exists - if He exists, then there must be proof he exists. It is not up to the atheist to prove God does not exist. The same principle applies to 'innocent till proven guilty'.

But in this case the God(the evidence) exists....now its the separatists who need to come out and say the evidence is fake....

If you committed a crime, then there must be evidence of that crime and evidence that the crime was committed by you.

But if there is evidence that proves I am guilty... then its my responsibility to prove that the evidence is fake or fabricated....If I don't do that ...I am guilty as charged.

Therefore, if these intercepts were indeed of militants and not just propaganda, it is up to the GoI to prove that the account is true.

Well GOI gave valid proof ...and it is valid till proven fake........and now its the charged who has to prove that the proof is fake.....if they want to continue to play their game of separatism.

 

[EjazR]

The audio of the "intercepts" are between office bearers of Hurriyat (G) and not of militants. They are speaking in Kashmiri and can be heard here
Is some of the Kashmir violence planned and instigated?


But still justifying the killing of people in protests based on this by firing is unacceptable. There will always be elements that will try to take advantage of the situation. This is a historical fact. But by resorting to firing on crowds instead of using non-lethal riot control techniques, the govt. is only alienating the people.

The protests are still quite small compared to the 2008 Amarnath agitation that had between 1000-10,000 protestors and was across the entire state of J&K, buit even then there were about 40+ deaths in police firing. Both J&K govt. and GoI should have learnt from this.

The next of Kin of those who died in protests should be compensated and again security forces should be withdrawn from population centers just like the Army has been. The J&K police should be at the forefront of riot control duties in situations like this.

 

[EjazR]

A Big Question: Do they really want withdrawal of troops from Kashmir?

Ajmer Alam Wani

JAMMU: They (separatists and the main stream political parties) were raising high pitched slogans that Indian Government should withdraw its security forces from the soil of Kashmir so the people of Kashmir can feel a sense of security (which is not possible in the absence of security forces).

But at the mature time, when the process was started these leaders who claim to be the owners of entire Kashmir valley, used their brains in such a way to accomplish their selfish motives, the situation took reverse and the process has started otherwise now. Instead of troops withdrawal Indian Government has decided to move more troops in to control the situation and ensure peace in Kashmir.

People of Kashmir should now understand the reality that troops can not be withdrawn until there is peace on the streets. If the people of Kashmir, who have been treated and slaves not India but their own leaders, will not understand the fact that peace is imperative for troop withdrawal, their generations will never see the streets free of troops.

These people are being played with, their sentiments and ego is challenged every time and being a hot blood race they lost their brain and throng to streets raising slogans for Azadi and against India…But in the process many lost their near and dear ones, even teenagers some become the victim of stray bullets while some succumb to the stone injuries.

One fails to understand that what purpose is solved through protests and facing the bullets or throwing the stones on troops? The process provokes every human heart to react and so do the security forces or the other agencies dealing with the situation. Being in the great trouble for the last three days, the people of Kashmir, who are being exploited by the separatists and other trouble mongers, must understand now that they are no more dearer to any of these leaders. These people must understand that these leaders are using them for their personnel interests and the time has come now that people of Kashmir should identify their foes and friends.

Since last few years these people were openly instigated and provoked through speeches and public addresses, not only by the separatist organizations but also by mainstream political parties, that the presence of Army and other Indian forces in Kashmir Valley is making them slaves and these people were asked to resort to the agitations, strikes and stone pelting against the security forces.

These innocent people were taught that every killing in Kashmir takes place due to the presence of security forces so these people who even don’t know the role of security forces in protecting their lives do what these leaders and the agencies operating from across the border want them to do. But when it come to face the bullets, it is only common citizen of Kashmir Valley who becomes the victim but the leaders (separatists) who want to keep the pot of violence boiling enjoy wazwan inside their luxury homes so some times are put under house arerest., while those in the mainstream political parties are invited by the National Media for discussions making audience fool.

Here one must ask, and the innocent people of Kashmir must understand that when the situation was arrived to an extent that Indian Government had started withdrawing the security forces from the civilian areas of Kashmir step by step then what goes wrong. That now Indian government has decided to deploy more troops in Srinagar and other districts of Kashmir to maintain peace.

One doubts, does these leaders who raise the slogans demanding withdrawal of Army from Kashmir really want it or it is just a gimmick to hijack the minds of common people of Kashmir and keep them engaged in scuffles and brawl with the security agencies which ultimately results sometimes in deaths and injuries. People of Kashmir have to understand now that who provoked them to make the situation so worst that the government which was in the process of withdrawing its forces from the civilian areas has again decided to deploy more and more troops there in Kashmir valley.

This is high time for the Kashmir people to understand that on what direction they are taking coming generations and what legacy they are going to left for them. Will their coming generations to continue with protests and stone pelting and breasting their last either on roads, streets or in the hospitals? The people of Kashmir have to wakeup and think about their future generations, their security and their stability.

 

[gubbi]

Lies out of control September 1999​

Himal Southasian/News Archive

=================

You quote blogs as your sources? I am surprised! The second source you posted also quotes (source link no 109.) your first source "Himalmag.com". We all agreed, as gentlemen, that quoting blogs is disreputable. Why then, do that?

Anyhow, the point that these articles make is not that they deny mutilation of Indian soldiers by Pakistanis (the so called mujaheedin or PA regulars), but the fact that none of the reporters tried to make an effort to understand the extent of mutilations as opposed to those claimed by the IA (See the amount of freedom of media - and some ignoramuses complain the lack of such in India!!). It was an introspective piece. You of all people should have comprehended that article. Similar articles deplored the role that media played during Mumbai massacre. Dont tell me that by quoting those you can cast doubt on the whole Mumbai massacre.

IA may have exaggerated some of the instances of mutilation of bodies, but in a "war like situation" (credit to A.B. Vajpayee) it becomes imperative to sway public's mood to support the task at hand - which was to KICK intruders OUT of Indian land. Mission almost accomplished, dont you think so?

It was a war. Your folly, you paid. Period.