Kargil’s military success was converted into political defeat: Musharraf

[Heinz Guderian]

sure sure.... ask that to your SSG guys sitting there.. they will absolutely agree to you and your brilliant analysis.

The terrorism and nuclear threat is best card in Pakistani pocket to do whatever they want, but did they know what would be Indian response?

Hi,

Youngman,

You can only talk tough----read my other posts----your military ran out of heavy guns ammunition during kargil---. It airlifted some from south Africa----but there was not enough to fight with Pakistan----and pak military's ammo was intact.

It was your air force and the cowardice of Nawaz Sharif that saved the day for you---. If pak air force had an aota more strength and Nawaz bigger ballz---pak military could have walked in and india had no heavy artillery to stop the progress---.

No military can fight a war without heavy guns.

Now for 1965----name one European news paper that declared india as victorious of 1965 war or even close to it---.

Wow, if India had intergalactic space weapon and if they had brains, not spine ( spine never do this job), then Pakistan would be out of map.

 

[MastanKhan]

ok sir, assume we don't have 155 mm round , but war is not only about 155 mm round...No doubt Pak army can hold themselves fro some time. But if war escalate, major looser will be your navy and after that Air force...who didn't have any BVR missile...You are again assuming the safe box...like Mushi (your earlier general does does if we does India will respond only this...you general forget basic things in wat tactics " always expect unexpected".... main thing you lost your solder for false and idiot planner...

Sir,

Again---a new member---welcome to the board----.

Plz read my post again----if pak air force had any fangs at all---things would have been different.

Yes----militaries fight their battles with heavy guns----no heavy guns---no victories.

@Alfa-Fighter

As for cold start---the concept of cold start fits Pakistan better---. Sir---just before you start seeing RED in front of your eyes--you need to calm down---remember---the enemy gets to vote as well in a conflict----.

The targets and goals of the kargil strikes were achieved----.

Now you know and all Indians know----once you fail---try try try again----it is just a matter of time----. Someone invaded the region 17 times before he was successful---.

It is just a numbers game guys----your opposition needs to succeed only one time and that is all---. Now think about it---.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

There was nothing wrong with sending Sharif----the only problem was that Sharif did not have a backbone then---he still he does not have a back bone now. And for Bill Clinto----what was he going to do----just sit back and watch.

Gen Musharraf could HIMSELF have gone to meet Clinton

Indian position was simple ; we had RESTRAINED ourelves by NOT ESCALATING the conflict

AND STILL we had managed to recover EIGHTY FIVE percent of our territory

SO if Pakistan did not vacate India would have OPENED Another Front On the International Border

Nukes be damned ; we were not giving in to nuclear blackmail

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

You are riled up----. Your post is not balanced---.

There was nothing wrong with sending Sharif----the only problem was that Sharif did not have a backbone then---he still he does not have a back bone now. And for Bill Clinto----what was he going to do----just sit back and watch.

I am not riled up. You couldn't answer ONE thing properly given in my post. I'll ask another question here again. If this Kargil deal was SUCH an amazing win plan. Why send a Civilian leader to abandon it and seize fire? How much value did Civilians had back then when it came to military affairs? The military never cared to even let these people know of exercises, let alone operations like these.

The reality is, when the SSG soldiers started to die in hundreds a day, the Pakistani Army realized "holly shiit", and then, India started to mobilize two of their corpses immediately, along with battle deployment of IAF's assets to the FOB's. For both, the Pakistani Army had no plans on countering. The PAF had flat out refused to get into a conflict and had only assured patrols within the Pakistani airspace, even those CAP's were reduced in numbers as the -16's couldn't fly much due to aging parts and no spares.

The Migs and the Mirages had locked onto the -16's and other PAF assets from 30 miles inside the Indian territory.

You can try to color this thing as NS's fault. But it was one of those half baked plans created by your very own Mushy, while he was on his " I am the General High"; and made thousands lose their lives, while risking the entire country's system, assets, people and all.
But do answer my question, if this was really a "win" plan as Mushy claims, why did he not continue with it and sideline NS like he did later????

 

[nForce]

I agree with your entire post and its points BUT the line in bold, above. There are a lot of other conflicts that I've learned over the history of both India and Pakistan where India couldn't really do "conflict termination". I can start speaking but this may not be the right place for it.

I am genuinely interested..Can you please tell us about them ?
We can always open a new thread if that is required.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

The targets and goals of the kargil strikes were achieved----.

What Kargil achieved was the FURTHER Militarisation of India

India started spending even more

In just two years ie 2001 ; we were AGAIN eyeball to eyeball

And again in two years ie in 2001
Pakistan was feeling utterly helpless

 

[MastanKhan]

Wow, if India had intergalactic space weapon and if they had brains, not spine ( spine never do this job), then Pakistan would be out of map.

Sir,

A wonderful welcome---.

So---only if the cows could fly because pigs don't count-------. Intergalactic space weapons for india is like an itchy and angry bald person was given long sharp nails---

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Never before In HUMAN history an ARMY fought with SO MANY odds against it
like Indian Army did

We could not cross the LOC because USA was our ENEMY given the 1998 Nuclear Tests

The whole world was watching whether India was a RESPONSIBLE Nuclear weapon state
or a war monger

Normally such battles are fought by opening another fronts
or out flanking the enemies

We did neither ; we just attacked in the MOST PEACEFUL and PACIFIST manner

 

[MilSpec]

Hi,

Youngman,

You can only talk tough----read my other posts----your military ran out of heavy guns ammunition during kargil---. It airlifted some from south Africa----but there was not enough to fight with Pakistan----and pak military's ammo was intact.

It was your air force and the cowardice of Nawaz Sharif that saved the day for you---. If pak air force had an aota more strength and Nawaz bigger ballz---pak military could have walked in and india had no heavy artillery to stop the progress---.

No military can fight a war without heavy guns.

Now for 1965----name one European news paper that declared india as victorious of 1965 war or even close to it---.

Dear sir,

Sorry to burst you bubble, the arty shells you are referring to was 155 mm 45 cal shells for FH77, Whereas what i know is that around 340 howitzers were employed in kargil conflict out of which 215 Haubits FH77 were employed, rest were a mix of 105mm IFG's and M46 130mm IFG's. The approximate number of operational arty guns at that time were 2500 units, that still leaves roughly 1500 to 1800 units on pakistan border areas deployment. I also know for a fact that 400 M46 130 mm's were dispatched from Deolali not for J&K though....

Sure 1965 was as huge pakistani victory, what were your objectives for 1965 again?

 

[MastanKhan]

I am not riled up. You couldn't answer ONE thing properly given in my post. I'll ask another question here again. If this Kargil deal was SUCH an amazing win plan. Why send a Civilian leader to abandon it and seize fire? How much value did Civilians had back then when it came to military affairs? The military never cared to even let these people know of exercises, let alone operations like these.

????

Hi,

The goal for Kargil had been achieved---simple as that---. Pak military achieved that goal at its weakest moment in history----.

Nawaz was sent because he was still the prime minister---. He was involved in the planning.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Hi,

The question about the lives of the soldiers was a big big concern----it was discussed over and over, but the gains were more important----.

A good military plan needs to change with the changing scenario---and it did---. Andas much as Pakistan wanted it to end---india wanted it to end faster than Pakistan----. All the indian ammunition for 155 mm big guns was gone----. They had to make fastrak procurement to take care of kargil issue---but enough to fight Pakistan on another front.

Pakistan's military's ammunition was intact to confront the indian military on the other front if needed---yes---air force was of major issue---for that reason the war did not escalate---.

India knew that it did not have bombs to lob into Pakistan---Pakistan knew it could not fight the indian air force---and Nawaz Sharif bowed his head down in front of Bill Clinton----.

I mean to say---look at the stupid indian kids over here----" why the indian army did not continue the advance "---

A) Yes, during War, India is not facing sever Ammunition shortages , the only thing is 155mm Guns were brought from Strike Cops to Kargil.

B) By the time end PAK is only one week of Fuel left, You think after one week Mayhem will havoc in PAK when everything in PAK stopped. Car/ factories / power plants / and your Army will dried up after a one more week.

D) US had put much pressure in India not to escalate the conflict

Sir,

Nawaz Sharif should be hanged for his cowardice---. Gutless man---as he was described by Bill Clinton in one of his interviews---.

Troops died---because that is what they signed for and that is what they are for----.

As I stated in my other post---indian military had run out of 155 mm rounds----they had to airlift them from south Africa on the run----but they were not enugh to fight a war with Pakistan which had all its ammunition intact----. Air force was the weak link for Pakistan----lack of ammunition a weak link for the indian military----.

In war India never Run out of 155mm Ammo , In war you have to replenish stocks at faster level to meet any eventuality. thats why their is always faster procurement during wars .

But do you have fuel left to fight a War? what you think IAF will do after wiping PAF ?

if NS should be hand what you should do with Army ? who so scared that block the kargil report?

Hi,

Youngman,

You can only talk tough----read my other posts----your military ran out of heavy guns ammunition during kargil---. It airlifted some from south Africa----but there was not enough to fight with Pakistan----and pak military's ammo was intact.

It was your air force and the cowardice of Nawaz Sharif that saved the day for you---. If pak air force had an aota more strength and Nawaz bigger ballz---pak military could have walked in and india had no heavy artillery to stop the progress---.

No military can fight a war without heavy guns.

Now for 1965----name one European news paper that declared india as victorious of 1965 war or even close to it---.

In 1965 , all the western Countries are in PAK favour / Allies, did you ever find any mention n Operation brasstrak? they did not even mentioned that IA reached Lahore

During Cuba missile crisis, West only published the report that Russian gone back from Cuba , but they didn't Print the news that US has to withdraw missiles for Russian border countries also in return.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@MastanKhan

Why did USA threaten to BOMB Pakistan to stone Age after 9/ 11

Because US Pakistan relations had been damaged by U S support to India
in Kargil conflict in 1999

Two things HELPED in Turning around INDO US relations

1 Vajpayee's bus trip to Lahore which proved India's sincere intentions in FEB 1999

2 India's very restrained response in kargil war in June 1999

These two factors HELPED in bridging Indo USA divide

Kargil war damaged US Pakistan relations

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Hi,

The goal for Kargil had been achieved---simple as that---. Pak military achieved that goal at its weakest moment in history----.

Nawaz was sent because he was still the prime minister---. He was involved in the planning.

What is the Goal of Kargil? The goal is to get Siachen , how funny? PA get Siachen.

NS was not involved in Planning even PA didn't involved PAF and PN also, that why Airforce didn't played along.

PA was based on assumption that After PAK get the peak , India will not attack Nor able to take peak by force because they are high point . but they wrong and all hell break loose , After that PA , Pak Govt etc all running here and their to save situation .like headless hen .

PA Gen in China , PAK Civilians in US to save situation.

 

[Heinz Guderian]

Sir,

A wonderful welcome---.

So---only if the cows could fly because pigs don't count-------. Intergalactic space weapons for india is like an itchy and angry bald person was given long sharp nails---

Lol, you talking this not me

If we had this, we done this, if we had the interplanetary rockets, we attacked India from Mars.

But question is reality, those weps were in arsenal of PAF or not.

I tell you truth, before 1996 the Indian Army was very shy to retaliate on PA attacks on LoC. When PM IK Gujaral fuked up with this all, then he allowed the plans of Command Gen ‘Paddy’ Padmanabhan,over a 48-hour period along the LoC during which, for the first time since 1971, the 160mm Soltam mortars were air-lifted from Uri by Mi-26Ts & were used with devastating effect.

That was the same reason MiG-25R broke the sound barrier ( very unusual because of there highly classified missions) over the Islamabad.

But maybe Mussy decided to take revenge of this, and might want a war with those weps which never exist in PAF inventory.

 

[nForce]

Hi,

You are riled up----. Your post is not balanced---.

There was nothing wrong with sending Sharif----the only problem was that Sharif did not have a backbone then---he still he does not have a back bone now. And for Bill Clinto----what was he going to do----just sit back and watch.

There is this one question..if Musharraf did not need NS for planning and even execution of his plan, then why was NS required when things got tough ? Why didn't Musharraf simply go ahead with his plan if it was so good ?

To me, it sounds like Musharraf vomitted and wanted someone else to clean his mess.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Sir,

Again---a new member---welcome to the board----.

Plz read my post again----if pak air force had any fangs at all---things would have been different.

Yes----militaries fight their battles with heavy guns----no heavy guns---no victories.

@Alfa-Fighter

As for cold start---the concept of cold start fits Pakistan better---. Sir---just before you start seeing RED in front of your eyes--you need to calm down---remember---the enemy gets to vote as well in a conflict----.

The targets and goals of the kargil strikes were achieved----.

Now you know and all Indians know----once you fail---try try try again----it is just a matter of time----. Someone invaded the region 17 times before he was successful---.

It is just a numbers game guys----your opposition needs to succeed only one time and that is all---. Now think about it---.

Lol If cold Start concept fit in PAK better , then how come Cold Start concept Used by India in Siachen by IA worked for India and not for PAK in kargil?