Karachi Violence .. Updates & Discussion ..

[Mav3rick]

1. Good
2. So, are you saying that anyone MQM murdered were not human beings? Wow .. strong statement that. Can you provide categorical evidence of this? I really want to see who was murdered by whom. Enough of wild generalized allegations lets have some details and evidence?
3. Its good that you are in Pakistan - are u in karachi?
5. The reason for your moral support being what? These are butchers . have you seen the HRCP's report about 12th May?
6. What a contradiction man... you say you are a FOREIGN NATIONAL YET you are a Pakistani?? How can one be a foreign national yet a Pakistani?? So you have sworn allegiance to another country yet you are a patriot Pakistani? wonder how that works? A bit hypocritical isn't it? Amazing!!

You support meaning of AH's words .. ok ... so you agree with his statement in India about Partition? Also, that he threatened a Pakistani journalist? Also, that he held Quran and was singing songs and dancing? Also, that he lied a numerous times on oath in his 9/9 press conference?

I am still awaiting the ISI report that you referenced ?

1 - !
2 - That's exactly what I said. First, you have to provide evidence of murders committed by MQM and then I will provide the same. Evidence is empirical, undeniable fact, yeah?
3 - Yes, I have never actually lived anywhere other then Karachi in Pakistan. I was born here and I continue to live here.
4 - !
5 - I do not require a report on May 12 or on any other day, I have lived through these days. May 12 was a major conspiracy against MQM and the plotters played the game perfectly. All I can say is that MQM was the victim on May 12.
6 - Constitution of Pakistan provides citizens of Pakistan the right to hold dual nationality! Any oath taken at a citizenship ceremony concerns only the laws and rights of that country....it does not mean denouncing your previous citizenship or change of allegiance. I continue to be a Pakistani first and foremost and I would defend the country with my life, if need be.

AH's comments about partition are so correct that they are scary and none of you have the guts to admit it, despite the fact that we lost more than half of Pakistan because of that partition, is that how the partition was envisioned by Jinnah or Iqbal or Sir Syed Ahmed Khan or anyone else? And I said that I support the meaning of his words, not his acts of using the Quran or dancing or singing.

EDIT: Before you take point 3 the wrong way, let me clarify that I mean I haven't lived in any other part of Pakistan while I have lived in Pakistan. I have lived overseas for 7-8 years in the past 10 years (and visited Pakistan atleast 2-3 times on average every year in the past 5 years) but I am in Karachi for the past 2.5 years straight.

 

[Wadera]

1 - !
2 - That's exactly what I said. First, you have to provide evidence of murders committed by MQM and then I will provide the same. Evidence is empirical, undeniable fact, yeah?
3 - Yes, I have never actually lived anywhere other then Karachi in Pakistan. I was born here and I continue to live here.
4 - !
5 - I do not require a report on May 12 or on any other day, I have lived through these days. May 12 was a major conspiracy against MQM and the plotters played the game perfectly. All I can say is that MQM was the victim on May 12.
6 - Constitution of Pakistan provides citizens of Pakistan the right to hold dual nationality! Any oath taken at a citizenship ceremony concerns only the laws and rights of that country....it does not mean denouncing your previous citizenship or change of allegiance. I continue to be a Pakistani first and foremost and I would defend the country with my life, if need be.

EDIT: Before you take point 3 the wrong way, let me clarify that I mean I haven't lived in any other part of Pakistan while I have lived in Pakistan. I have lived overseas for 7-8 years in the past 10 years (and visited Pakistan atleast 2-3 times on average every year in the past 5 years) but I am in Karachi for the past 2.5 years straight.

2. What constitutes evidence for you? Confessions of killers - are there - if you deny this you can deny anything. Meanwhile you have not provided anything as such ... as I said Saulat Mirza has been charged and convicted and awaiting death penalty. How can you deny this? The list of MQM'ers forgiven via NRO for murders was provided too ... .. Summum bukmun 'umyun?
3. Good - so we can meet in person - it would be a good discussion to have.
5. You have lived through it? ok - link below - you can see other karachite (Also urdu speaker) who lived through the same and has explained blow by blow ... where is your version of the so called conspiracy??

http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/131071-eyewitness-karachi-may-12-2007-a.html

6. Don't hide behind the constitution - the question is why do you need a foreign passport? Why does Altaf need one? Why doesn't he come back to Karachi? This only shows that one does not have trust in the system and patriotism takes a back seat. Thus, its ironic for a self-claimed foreign national to defend a butcher party.. agree?

Sticking to MQM ... and why should hate these murderers too.

You want evidence - following link shows you the report by Dawn about MQM target killer Hashimuzafar (in a press conference in 1990's) admitting to murder of tariq azeem (please read this with an open mind and keep your MQM bias aside for a moment)

http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/128814-mqm-exposed-part-1-hashimuz-zafar.html

The Oath that you have just denied -- is quoted in a published book highlighted below: - instead of just denying .. provide some evidence man .. otherwise there is not point talking to you..

“I,…believing that Allah is here and watching over me, swearing by His book and my mother, take oath that I shall remain loyal to the MQM and Altaf Hussain for my whole life. I will not take part in any conspiracy, planning or action against MQM or Altaf Hussain and I will not maintain any link with anyone who is involved in any of the acts mentioned above. I swear by my mother that if any conspiracy against MQM or Altaf Hussain or any act harmful to them comes into my knowledge, I shall immediately inform Altaf Hussain or other main leaders, even if the conspirators be my brother, sister, mother, father, any relative or friend…I swear that I shall keep every secret of my party and regard it more precious than my life. I swear that I shall accept Altaf Hussain’s decision as final in any matter and obey all his decisions. If I disobey any of his decisions, I must be regarded as a traitor. I swear that I have and I will have blind trust in party leader Altaf Hussain…May God help me to remain firm and loyal to the MQM.” [From the book: A People of Migrants: Ethnicity, State and Religion in Karachi by Oskar Verkaaik , page 72].

AH's comments about partition are so correct that they are scary and none of you have the guts to admit it, despite the fact that we lost more than half of Pakistan because of that partition, is that how the partition was envisioned by Jinnah or Iqbal or Sir Syed Ahmed Khan or anyone else? And I said that I support the meaning of his words, not his acts of using the Quran or dancing or singing.

Your latest statement to defend Altaf's statement is really shocking. Any self respecting Pakistani cannot say such, let alone in a hostile neighboring country. Interestingly he can goto India but not Pakistan. Making such statement tells you that he is against the very idea of an integral Pakistan. He is denying the reality of Pakistan.

How did we lose half of Pakistan? Was there Pakistan before the actual independence? The same Altaf is happily writing to Tony blair to disband ISI .. and same goon's party happily chalking Karachi walls by demanding separate province .. Jinnahpur ... then denied Jinnahpur ..

Lastly, meaning of his words? Wow .. how can you support only his words .. his singing is not his words???

Again - please give the evidence .. i would love to read the ISI report you talked about.

 

[ehsanm1]

Off-topic: For any Urdu-speaking haters, how would Pakistan would be without Karachi?

 

[Mav3rick]

2. What constitutes evidence for you? Confessions of killers - are there - if you deny this you can deny anything. Meanwhile you have not provided anything as such ... as I said Saulat Mirza has been charged and convicted and awaiting death penalty. How can you deny this? The list of MQM'ers forgiven via NRO for murders was provided too ... .. Summum bukmun 'umyun?
3. Good - so we can meet in person - it would be a good discussion to have.
5. You have lived through it? ok - link below - you can see other karachite (Also urdu speaker) who lived through the same and has explained blow by blow ... where is your version of the so called conspiracy??

http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/131071-eyewitness-karachi-may-12-2007-a.html

6. Don't hide behind the constitution - the question is why do you need a foreign passport? Why does Altaf need one? Why doesn't he come back to Karachi? This only shows that one does not have trust in the system and patriotism takes a back seat. Thus, its ironic for a self-claimed foreign national to defend a butcher party.. agree?

Sticking to MQM ... and why should hate these murderers too.

2 - Confessions of anyone after police torture is a lie. I am a man of pride but I, too, would admit to anything just to avoid torture and humiliation that police can cause after arrest......you all would do exactly the same. On the other hand, sting operations and confessions, brags or admissions outside police stations would be acceptable. Besides when you say MQM, you mean anyone urdu speaking while I mean anyone who takes an oath to be a karkun. And by extension of that you want to blame MQM for all crimes committed by urdu-speaking population but I can only accept actions that are ordered by MQM. And nobody can say urdu speaking are all saints, none of us are free ofsins but I believe our discussion should be whether MQM promotes this or not.

3 - Discussion face to face is actually a pretty good idea. My office is in the State Bank of Pakistan (I.I Chundrigarh Rd.), are you anywhere close by? We can grab lunch.

5 - May 12 is a long discussion unto itself. All I have to say is that MQM was the victim that day of a very well planned and executed conspiracy.

6 - Is it immoral to benefit financially from another country while you live in that country? Being a citizen of the other country I enjoyed benefits such as local fees for education and an opportunity to apply for jobs in the Govt. sector. Also, the passport of a European country opens many doors and lifts many visa restrictions. But the important thing here is that I left an excellent job at Citigroup International abroad to live and work in Pakistan at a fraction of pay that I was getting there.

And I went to the link you provided which just takes me to another thread and post by the well known 'teeth maestro'. No need to say anything else.

You want evidence - following link shows you the report by Dawn about MQM target killer Hashimuzafar (in a press conference in 1990's) admitting to murder of tariq azeem (please read this with an open mind and keep your MQM bias aside for a moment)

http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/128814-mqm-exposed-part-1-hashimuz-zafar.html

Well.......the link just takes me to another post by yourself. All this hard work and what for? Anyway first there is a fiery confession and then Ishrat Emad is attending the guy's wedding ceremony instead of ordering a hit on him....strange and quite contradictory of each other yeah? Unless.....the guy was forced and blackmailed by some 3rd party to hold that press conference (a link would be good) and MQM knew that the guy did what he did under blackmail. What wouldn't you do if you knew there were armed men at your home holding a gun at your family? It was either that or that MQM rewards even those who defame MQM in press conferences. Take your pick.

The Oath that you have just denied -- is quoted in a published book highlighted below: - instead of just denying .. provide some evidence man .. otherwise there is not point talking to you..

“I,…believing that Allah is here and watching over me, swearing by His book and my mother, take oath that I shall remain loyal to the MQM and Altaf Hussain for my whole life. I will not take part in any conspiracy, planning or action against MQM or Altaf Hussain and I will not maintain any link with anyone who is involved in any of the acts mentioned above. I swear by my mother that if any conspiracy against MQM or Altaf Hussain or any act harmful to them comes into my knowledge, I shall immediately inform Altaf Hussain or other main leaders, even if the conspirators be my brother, sister, mother, father, any relative or friend…I swear that I shall keep every secret of my party and regard it more precious than my life. I swear that I shall accept Altaf Hussain’s decision as final in any matter and obey all his decisions. If I disobey any of his decisions, I must be regarded as a traitor. I swear that I have and I will have blind trust in party leader Altaf Hussain…May God help me to remain firm and loyal to the MQM.” [From the book: A People of Migrants: Ethnicity, State and Religion in Karachi by Oskar Verkaaik , page 72].

I am not disputing your posted claims, all I am saying is that that is not the way I have heard it.

Your latest statement to defend Altaf's statement is really shocking. Any self respecting Pakistani cannot say such, let alone in a hostile neighboring country. Interestingly he can goto India but not Pakistan. Making such statement tells you that he is against the very idea of an integral Pakistan. He is denying the reality of Pakistan.

Bhai go and listen to the speech, the whole of it, not doctored cut-paste portions but the actual unedited version of it. He says that partition of the sub continent was a blunder, biggest blunder but today Pakistan is a reality that nobody can deny!

How did we lose half of Pakistan? Was there Pakistan before the actual independence? The same Altaf is happily writing to Tony blair to disband ISI .. and same goon's party happily chalking Karachi walls by demanding separate province .. Jinnahpur ... then denied Jinnahpur ..

1 - Actual demand of independence was for 2 countries, Bangladesh was a trap. The actual partition should have been one side Pakistan and other side India, not 2 parts of Pakistan at 2 ends of India!

2 - The letter has been disowned by MQM, what else can I say?

3 - Jinnahpur was not a demand for a new state but a demand for a separate country. Ofcourse it was a fabrication, a lie to start a military operation in Karachi (which was initiated as an operation against dacoits in interior Sindh)

Lastly, meaning of his words? Wow .. how can you support only his words .. his singing is not his words???

Again - please give the evidence .. i would love to read the ISI report you talked about.

Ok, let me rephrase to make you understand, I agree with the essence AH's words ...Happy now?

You have asked twice about the ISI report, which report are you talking about?

 

[ice_man]

Off-topic: For any Urdu-speaking haters, how would Pakistan would be without Karachi?

i am SURE no one is urdu spekaing hater! if they are then they should be killed indiscriminately! the problem is that when people defend MQM they think they are defending ALL urdu speaking or ALL "muhajir". they forget then alot of people migrated into punjab and rest of sindh too hence. there were people hwo moved from afghanistan into pakistan too in 1947. hence sayign ALL "muhajir's" are represented by MQM is incorrect.

as for ALL URDU SPEAKING being represented by MQM is also incorrect. reason is the second biggest population of urdu speaking is in multan and i know that MOST of them don't support MQM. neither does ALL of urdu speaking people in karachi.

so when talking about MQM please make sure the word representation of "muhajir" or urdu speaking doesn't come up.

 

[Mav3rick]

3. Good - so we can meet in person - it would be a good discussion to have.

Yo.....Any plans? I live at Tariq Rd., we can catch up there after work sometime if that suits you better then II Chundrigarh Rd.

 

[ice_man]

Yo.....Any plans? I live at Tariq Rd., we can catch up there after work sometime if that suits you better then II Chundrigarh Rd.

kiyoun bicharaay kaay size ki buri tayar kar lii hai kiyaa ???

 

[Wadera]

2 - Confessions of anyone after police torture is a lie. I am a man of pride but I, too, would admit to anything just to avoid torture and humiliation that police can cause after arrest......you all would do exactly the same. On the other hand, sting operations and confessions, brags or admissions outside police stations would be acceptable. Besides when you say MQM, you mean anyone urdu speaking while I mean anyone who takes an oath to be a karkun. And by extension of that you want to blame MQM for all crimes committed by urdu-speaking population but I can only accept actions that are ordered by MQM. And nobody can say urdu speaking are all saints, none of us are free ofsins but I believe our discussion should be whether MQM promotes this or not.

Going by this explanation and reasoning - we can never convict a criminal as anyone confessing their crimes would accuse authorities of torture as a way of confession. Is this why MQM leaders were happy to get a let of via NRO? To me or any reasonable person a confession on video would be sufficient but apparently not to MQM fan boys.

Also, I mean MQM when I say MQM - you think that MQM is the sole representative of urdu speakers. This is not true at all. Afaq Ahmad condemns Altaf, Late Tariq Azeem condemned Altaf too (perhaps the reason for his murder) ... there are others too .. Dr. Ghulam Mujataba is another MQM hater. So, clearly you are only trying to muddle things up - didn't expect this from you.. but then again what else can an MQM fan boy do when faced with evidence. For the record - you have provided ZERO evidence yet. Only tried unsuccessfully using Fox news logic to counter with absurd statements... sad .. if this continues then I will put you on ignore ..

3 - Discussion face to face is actually a pretty good idea. My office is in the State Bank of Pakistan (I.I Chundrigarh Rd.), are you anywhere close by? We can grab lunch.

Yes one fine day but by the looks of your line of thinking and reasoning - you seem to be gullible and ignorant to accept any other reality besides MQM being right .. if I want to meet a person like you - I 'd best to meet Altaf himself or one of his poster boys in Karachi .. which I have met enough of ... and for the record these guys in private conversations .. (when they have had a few drinks) ... admit to most of the things i have posted here ... these audio / video will come out in due time in media .. just wait and watch ..

5 - May 12 is a long discussion unto itself. All I have to say is that MQM was the victim that day of a very well planned and executed conspiracy.

Another example of you being too gullible and ignorant. Whole world is saying its MQM .. MQM was in govt .. and yet you come and claim something so absurd. .. I don't expect you to accept anything against MQM but lets call a spade a spade, shall we? HRCP , news media, columnist .. everyone has condemned MQM .. but yet you are blind enough to defend these butchers... I pity you for your blindness..

6 - Is it immoral to benefit financially from another country while you live in that country? Being a citizen of the other country I enjoyed benefits such as local fees for education and an opportunity to apply for jobs in the Govt. sector. Also, the passport of a European country opens many doors and lifts many visa restrictions. But the important thing here is that I left an excellent job at Citigroup International abroad to live and work in Pakistan at a fraction of pay that I was getting there.

Yes it is really immoral and wrong. So, what if we goto war with Aussies .. who would you defend? If you say Pak .. then you basically took an Oath to defend Aussie .. which would be a lie..... jisi thaali say khaa rahey ho usi mein cheyd karogay?

But I commend you for coming back to Pakistan unlike Altaf coward - tell me - you from a salaried class can leave a cushy job and come back to Pakistan then what is so special about Altaf that you let him live in UK and hold all Karachites hostage? Do enlighten me ..

And I went to the link you provided which just takes me to another thread and post by the well known 'teeth maestro'. No need to say anything else.

Yes, teeth maestro or Dr. Awab Alvi was the one who put up the story on his blog .. published in The News (owned by urdu speakers) .. so Awab is a urdu speaker too .. my point is .. a urdu speaker is narrating the 12 may incident .. and by your own definition all urdu speakers are at the mercy of MQM and support MQM .. thus - we can accept this narration? Or do you call those lies too? (I am just checking how ignorant can you be)

Well.......the link just takes me to another post by yourself. All this hard work and what for? Anyway first there is a fiery confession and then Ishrat Emad is attending the guy's wedding ceremony instead of ordering a hit on him....strange and quite contradictory of each other yeah? Unless.....the guy was forced and blackmailed by some 3rd party to hold that press conference (a link would be good) and MQM knew that the guy did what he did under blackmail. What wouldn't you do if you knew there were armed men at your home holding a gun at your family? It was either that or that MQM rewards even those who defame MQM in press conferences. Take your pick.

This just tells you that these bast**ds kill people, confess and get support from Altaf and his goons. They are really that bad .. that they not only do the crimes but commit to it .. and then brag about it ...

You are saying that the guy was blackmailed by 3rd party to hold press conference .. yet you ask me for the link .. wow !! height of ignorance?

Yes armed men hold families at gun point .. I agree .. and its a dangerous situation. But they belong to MQM. That is what the captured target killers have admitted too in the video confessions. Yes, MQM rewards those who kill on orders of bhai .. they know very well that there many gullible / ignorant people like you .. who will not only follow them blindly but support them even in presence of video confessions ... so MQM (like you) .. don't care about video confessions..

I am not disputing your posted claims, all I am saying is that that is not the way I have heard it.

You hear .. what you want to hear .. video confessions are not sufficient for you .. urdu speakers talking about 12 may .. events is not good for you .. list of mqm leaders with charges that were forgiven via NRO .. is not enough for you .... as I asked earlier .. wonder what is enough for you? I reckon nothing because you are someone who is totally sold on the idea of MQM being innocent because of either ignorance/gullible ... continue that way .. I am not here to reform you .. but facts are infront of the whole world

Bhai go and listen to the speech, the whole of it, not doctored cut-paste portions but the actual unedited version of it. He says that partition of the sub continent was a blunder, biggest blunder but today Pakistan is a reality that nobody can deny!

I have listned to the whole speech .. heck I did better .. I have his interview he gave to an indian news paper post speech ... Yes ... and partition of sub continent was the reason Pakistan came into being ... so are you saying that creation of Pak was wrong??? Take a stand. How can you say that partition was the biggest blunder but Pakistan is a reality .. ?? Either you are happy with Pakistan or not ... and in same speech he begged india to accept the muhajirs ... what do you say about that? Isn't it shameful? Why do you even call yourself muhajirs after 60+ years? Fact is .. this speech was made by a british national about my country in an enemy country ..and Altaf boldly stated that creation of Pakistan was the biggest blunder .. and he begged for refuge from indians ... What could be more shameful for any self respecting pakistani?

1 - Actual demand of independence was for 2 countries, Bangladesh was a trap. The actual partition should have been one side Pakistan and other side India, not 2 parts of Pakistan at 2 ends of India!

What is your point in all this?? I simply don't comprehend .. so are you saying that during partition 3 countries instead of 2 would be a better solution???

2 - The letter has been disowned by MQM, what else can I say?

What else do you expect MQM to do?? Will they ever admit?? Although Mustafa Kamal indirectly acknowledge the letter by defending most parts .. and then stating that colindale is not MQM HQ .. and that there is a distance of 'zameen' 'asmaan' between collindale and edgware ...

Please do me a favor .. go and check MQM website around the dates of the letter of 23rd Sept 2001 .. Altaf openly promised rallies against terrorism ..on 26th Sept .. this was to show Tony Blair that MQM is capable of this .. OPEN YOUR EYES man ...

3 - Jinnahpur was not a demand for a new state but a demand for a separate country. Ofcourse it was a fabrication, a lie to start a military operation in Karachi (which was initiated as an operation against dacoits in interior Sindh)

Dude .. as a I said .. read more ..there are blogs of MQM supporters who admit to this .. even the major incharge of this officer has come and told everyone that there were maps ..

Ok, let me rephrase to make you understand, I agree with the essence AH's words ...Happy now?

You have asked twice about the ISI report, which report are you talking about?

ISI report on May 12 that you or some other fan boy mentioned in this discussion ...

Lastly, you have not provide a single proof to counter anything i have mentioned. You only bring your words. . which really only tell me that you are a gullible person. For you even if Altaf himself comes and admits his crimes .. you will still worship him .. not for the sake of this one sided debate ... but for your own sake .. please realise the facts man ... Qiyamat key din .. har kisi ka hisaab hoga ... no one will be forgiven ... so stop defending murderers .. may Allah guide you to the right path, Ameen.

 

[Mav3rick]

Going by this explanation and reasoning - we can never convict a criminal as anyone confessing their crimes would accuse authorities of torture as a way of confession. Is this why MQM leaders were happy to get a let of via NRO? To me or any reasonable person a confession on video would be sufficient but apparently not to MQM fan boys.

Also, I mean MQM when I say MQM - you think that MQM is the sole representative of urdu speakers. This is not true at all. Afaq Ahmad condemns Altaf, Late Tariq Azeem condemned Altaf too (perhaps the reason for his murder) ... there are others too .. Dr. Ghulam Mujataba is another MQM hater. So, clearly you are only trying to muddle things up - didn't expect this from you.. but then again what else can an MQM fan boy do when faced with evidence. For the record - you have provided ZERO evidence yet. Only tried unsuccessfully using Fox news logic to counter with absurd statements... sad .. if this continues then I will put you on ignore ..

1 - NRO is just 1 of the 2-3 things on which I did not agree with Musharraf. NRO was like handing a 'get out of jail free' card to many criminals and 'alleged criminals'. But the basic idea of NRO was to terminate cases that were registered to blackmail politically. Anyway NRO is a black spot on our constitution.

2 - There were many beneficiaries from all political parties under NRO, why single out MQM?

3 - You tell me that by my reasoning and logic, a criminal cannot be convicted. However:

a) If you look at it the other way around, wouldn't anyone admit to anything under torture? Would that be correct? I expect an answer on this.
b) Do constitutions of first world countries allow torture? If these highly educated, civilized socities do not tolerate torture during remand then there must be a reason to it, think about it!

You speak of Islam, does Islam allow torture for confessions? Do you know what we call people like you who pick and choose its and bits from here and there to suit their personal needs? Hypocrite!

My post earlier was crystal clear and precisely presented, yet you twisted it to suit your need because you had no valid counter arguments. No other political party is accused for crimes committed by an Urdu Speaking, it is only MQM, and this was my point.

Yes one fine day but by the looks of your line of thinking and reasoning - you seem to be gullible and ignorant to accept any other reality besides MQM being right .. if I want to meet a person like you - I 'd best to meet Altaf himself or one of his poster boys in Karachi .. which I have met enough of ... and for the record these guys in private conversations .. (when they have had a few drinks) ... admit to most of the things i have posted here ... these audio / video will come out in due time in media .. just wait and watch ..

Hey, I have an idea.....why don't we get drinks for all the accused and they will fess up??? Private confessions.....spicy! Anyway these arguments are getting ridiculous, I was looking forward for a chance to meet you so that I could explain some things that you do not know. I'd still like to meet you, I can come meet you wherever you wanna meet if that would relax you.

Another example of you being too gullible and ignorant. Whole world is saying its MQM .. MQM was in govt .. and yet you come and claim something so absurd. .. I don't expect you to accept anything against MQM but lets call a spade a spade, shall we? HRCP , news media, columnist .. everyone has condemned MQM .. but yet you are blind enough to defend these butchers... I pity you for your blindness..

As I said, this is a discussion unto itself. I stand firm by my stance, MQM was the victim on May 12.

Yes it is really immoral and wrong. So, what if we goto war with Aussies .. who would you defend? If you say Pak .. then you basically took an Oath to defend Aussie .. which would be a lie..... jisi thaali say khaa rahey ho usi mein cheyd karogay?

But I commend you for coming back to Pakistan unlike Altaf coward - tell me - you from a salaried class can leave a cushy job and come back to Pakistan then what is so special about Altaf that you let him live in UK and hold all Karachites hostage? Do enlighten me ..

Actually NO! Stopping someone from committing a sin is also an act of defence, so I will support the victim and try to stop the aggressor. The difference b/w me and AH is that I did not have a 'wanted:dead or alive.....reward Rs. 2.5 million' on my head unlike AH, neither did I have the 3-5% ruling elite as my enemy as they are enemies of AH because he wants to empower the other 95%!

Yes, teeth maestro or Dr. Awab Alvi was the one who put up the story on his blog .. published in The News (owned by urdu speakers) .. so Awab is a urdu speaker too .. my point is .. a urdu speaker is narrating the 12 may incident .. and by your own definition all urdu speakers are at the mercy of MQM and support MQM .. thus - we can accept this narration? Or do you call those lies too? (I am just checking how ignorant can you be)

Please stop repeating the same thing over and over again, if you want to speak on May 12 then go and read the threads created on that, everything has been answered there.

This just tells you that these bast**ds kill people, confess and get support from Altaf and his goons. They are really that bad .. that they not only do the crimes but commit to it .. and then brag about it ...

You are saying that the guy was blackmailed by 3rd party to hold press conference .. yet you ask me for the link .. wow !! height of ignorance?

Yes armed men hold families at gun point .. I agree .. and its a dangerous situation. But they belong to MQM. That is what the captured target killers have admitted too in the video confessions. Yes, MQM rewards those who kill on orders of bhai .. they know very well that there many gullible / ignorant people like you .. who will not only follow them blindly but support them even in presence of video confessions ... so MQM (like you) .. don't care about video confessions..

1 - I asked for a link to his confession, none was provided.

2 - About blackmailing, well that was the trend back then of the agencies (still is) so I just floated my idea. But I know for a fact that all the confessions of langra's and kaana's and commando's and chotta etc. which were aired every day on national television during the 90's were fabricated and confessions under severe torture so this must be something similar.

3 - Armed men that hold families belong to MQM, all of them? How intelligent!

You hear .. what you want to hear .. video confessions are not sufficient for you .. urdu speakers talking about 12 may .. events is not good for you .. list of mqm leaders with charges that were forgiven via NRO .. is not enough for you .... as I asked earlier .. wonder what is enough for you? I reckon nothing because you are someone who is totally sold on the idea of MQM being innocent because of either ignorance/gullible ... continue that way .. I am not here to reform you .. but facts are infront of the whole world

Please read my responses above of your repetitive posts. I do have another question for you, I expect an answer to this as well. How long would you be able to resist under torture if someone was forcing you to say something? Just give me the answer in minutes.......the torture would include severe beatings, electric shocks, hanging upside down, anal probing with batons dipped in chillies, stretching of legs in opposite directions, tie-ups on slabs of ice etc. Bari bari baaten kerna bohat asaan hai.

I have listned to the whole speech .. heck I did better .. I have his interview he gave to an indian news paper post speech ... Yes ... and partition of sub continent was the reason Pakistan came into being ... so are you saying that creation of Pak was wrong??? Take a stand. How can you say that partition was the biggest blunder but Pakistan is a reality .. ?? Either you are happy with Pakistan or not ... and in same speech he begged india to accept the muhajirs ... what do you say about that? Isn't it shameful? Why do you even call yourself muhajirs after 60+ years? Fact is .. this speech was made by a british national about my country in an enemy country ..and Altaf boldly stated that creation of Pakistan was the biggest blunder .. and he begged for refuge from indians ... What could be more shameful for any self respecting pakistani?

He said partition was wrong, the Indian subcontinent should have been divided into 2 parts (1 Part Pakistan and other part India - No Banladesh). Pakistan on this side should have been much bigger in size to accommodate the part that was given on the other side of India. That was the idea of partition floated by the founders of Pakistan movement.

During 1960's and 1970's operations against east Pakistan drove hundreds of thousands of Pakistani's into Indian territory to seek shelter, as they grew fed up of the injustice and treachery of the west Pakistani politicians they decided to fight for their rights and mukti bahini (the freedom fighters for Bangladesh) was formed. they were trained, supplied and sheltered by India, these men were branded traitors by west Pakistan. The same men are knows as heroes in east Pakistan....now knows as Bangladesh! But it was not just these men that fought for their freedom but the whole of Bangladesh.

Did you learn your lesson from that mistake? NO! and you continued to trample the rights of Mohajirs, Baloch, Pathan and even Sindhi's. You continue to do so and you wonder why Balochistan demands freedom, why NWFP and the whole tribal belt still does not recognize the constitution of Pakistan and why AH made that speech as a political statement! Ever wonder why the speech was made? Why is the most important question that you all should have asked!

What is your point in all this?? I simply don't comprehend .. so are you saying that during partition 3 countries instead of 2 would be a better solution???

No, Pakistani territory should have extended deeper into India and Bangladesh should not have existed as a part of Pakistan, ever. Compensation in territory should have been provided to west Pakistan instead of creating an east Pakistan.

What else do you expect MQM to do?? Will they ever admit?? Although Mustafa Kamal indirectly acknowledge the letter by defending most parts .. and then stating that colindale is not MQM HQ .. and that there is a distance of 'zameen' 'asmaan' between collindale and edgware ...

Please do me a favor .. go and check MQM website around the dates of the letter of 23rd Sept 2001 .. Altaf openly promised rallies against terrorism ..on 26th Sept .. this was to show Tony Blair that MQM is capable of this .. OPEN YOUR EYES man ...

You want me to go and check MQM website for dates of that letter? Don't you think the write of that letter would have done the exact same thing? Wouldn't he/she have taken up those dates from MQM website or other sources to plan the letter? You aren't very bright, are you?

Dude .. as a I said .. read more ..there are blogs of MQM supporters who admit to this .. even the major incharge of this officer has come and told everyone that there were maps ..

Major incharge? Dude the chief of ISI during that period has admitted that it was a lie, as well as an army major general (former corps commander of Karachi or something during the operation).

ISI report on May 12 that you or some other fan boy mentioned in this discussion ...

Lastly, you have not provide a single proof to counter anything i have mentioned. You only bring your words. . which really only tell me that you are a gullible person. For you even if Altaf himself comes and admits his crimes .. you will still worship him .. not for the sake of this one sided debate ... but for your own sake .. please realise the facts man ... Qiyamat key din .. har kisi ka hisaab hoga ... no one will be forgiven ... so stop defending murderers .. may Allah guide you to the right path, Ameen.

I think you are mixing me with someone else on the ISI report.

And you are right, Qiyamat ke din har kisi ka hisaab hoga, un ka bhi jinhon ne without proof dosron pe ilzaam lagayee aur duniya bhar mei dhandhoora peeta. Afaq Ahmed, too, is going to be released today and no single man has committed more murders then this man yet he walks scott free today. This is your justice system! Lekin Allah hisaab lega sab se, including me and you!

 

[Bratva]

going by the logic of "Suspects" were made to give force confessions, I would say Afaq Ahmad is also innocent and all those ANP activists who are held by Police is also innocent because they were made to confess Right?

 

[Bratva]

And MQM is not involved in the Target killings, nor do they have any kind of weapons, nor do they have any militant wing, nor do they were involved in Killings of Police Officials nor do their One Activist were Involved in May 12 event, "Right" ?

 

[Mav3rick]

going by the logic of "Suspects" were made to give force confessions, I would say Afaq Ahmad is also innocent and all those ANP activists who are held by Police is also innocent because they were made to confess Right?

As the saying goes....Innocent until proven Guilty!

Forensics and evidence collection along with authentic witnesses and a fair trial is must to assess the crimes. We don't want to go around punishing innocents neither do we want to let go of criminal elements, do we? Irrespective of who they may be, justice should be available to all.

---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 AM ----------

And MQM is not involved in the Target killings, nor do they have any kind of weapons, nor do they have any militant wing, nor do they were involved in Killings of Police Officials nor do their One Activist were Involved in May 12 event, "Right" ?

Define involvement in this instance, does it mean taking out a rally? does it mean defending the participants of the rally which included children, women and elderly?

My friend, I have posted my views on MQM's militant wing, their involvement in murders of police personnel and others quite clear in many of my posts. Please go through the posts before demanding answers as they have been provided on many instances previously.

 

[ice_man]

its simple MQM fanboys will deny facts deny even if the angels come down and tell them ALTAF & MQM militant wing is messed up!! even if you give them videos they will say they are self defence videos! you give them footage of confession they say it is tortured confession!

you can't argue with ignorant so let it go!

 

[Wadera]

1 - NRO is just 1 of the 2-3 things on which I did not agree with Musharraf. NRO was like handing a 'get out of jail free' card to many criminals and 'alleged criminals'. But the basic idea of NRO was to terminate cases that were registered to blackmail politically. Anyway NRO is a black spot on our constitution.

2 - There were many beneficiaries from all political parties under NRO, why single out MQM?

I am not supporting any single person who was freed by NRO but why single out MQM here ... at this point of discussion you ask such a question ... ah well. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MQM and their viciousness. Remember, I am claiming that they are worst b***ards on earth while you claim that they are angels who have descended from heavens?

3 - You tell me that by my reasoning and logic, a criminal cannot be convicted. However:

a) If you look at it the other way around, wouldn't anyone admit to anything under torture? Would that be correct? I expect an answer on this.
b) Do constitutions of first world countries allow torture? If these highly educated, civilized socities do not tolerate torture during remand then there must be a reason to it, think about it!

a) Firstly, your total line of argument is based on the assumption that they were tortured - as I have asked a number of times .. PLEASE PROVIDE some evidence ... So, when you can provide evidence that can without shadow of doubt prove that the murderers were tortured . then we can take this point further... I don't see why should we even discuss this without that..

b same as above .. nice try but boy lets talk on facts and not your wild fantasies

You speak of Islam, does Islam allow torture for confessions? Do you know what we call people like you who pick and choose its and bits from here and there to suit their personal needs? Hypocrite!

My post earlier was crystal clear and precisely presented, yet you twisted it to suit your need because you had no valid counter arguments. No other political party is accused for crimes committed by an Urdu Speaking, it is only MQM, and this was my point.

Your post was crystal clear and precise only in your fickle mind. So, by your own admission urdu speaking criminal elements only come from MQM .. i.e. MQM harbors them ?? ... own goal??

Hey, I have an idea.....why don't we get drinks for all the accused and they will fess up??? Private confessions.....spicy! Anyway these arguments are getting ridiculous, I was looking forward for a chance to meet you so that I could explain some things that you do not know. I'd still like to meet you, I can come meet you wherever you wanna meet if that would relax you.

So while you expect me to believe your wildest fantasy - for the record you have provided no evidence .. only your own assertions ... but when I refer to conversations that may come out in the media .. you say this... that is why I said you are a very gullible person.

About meeting you, I have given you my views clearly.. and you have only come forth to further strengthen my argument.. if I want to argue about MQM in person - its best to argue with people who can actually make a difference in MQM .. not a nobody like you ... you are gullible and ignorant .. because when people give you evidence .. you deny them .. then you keep repeating .. the same story .. did you really leave a job in Citibank or were you shown the door? .. just curious

As I said, this is a discussion unto itself. I stand firm by my stance, MQM was the victim on May 12.

That is no argument .. but what can you expect from an MQM fanboy who can't prove a thing .. I actually pity you.

Actually NO! Stopping someone from committing a sin is also an act of defence, so I will support the victim and try to stop the aggressor. The difference b/w me and AH is that I did not have a 'wanted:dead or alive.....reward Rs. 2.5 million' on my head unlike AH, neither did I have the 3-5% ruling elite as my enemy as they are enemies of AH because he wants to empower the other 95%!

hahaha .. is this what they brainwash you with?? Another own goal .. so if the elite is against AH .. then why is he happy to sit in their laps? Similarly .. he is against wadera's jaagirdars .. feudal system but he is happy to sit in their laps as long as it serves his mad urge of power? You didn't answer . conveniently ignored .. about Altaf being a british national and controlling karachi on a remote control .. isn't that ethical? You mentioned torture .. what about threats he made to azher jawed? this is on defence pk trhead .. whcih I shared with you ... no answer?

Please stop repeating the same thing over and over again, if you want to speak on May 12 then go and read the threads created on that, everything has been answered there.[ /quote]

I am repeating to bring home a point .. which I believe I did .. as you seem totally shut when I mention May 12 ..

1 - I asked for a link to his confession, none was provided.

2 - About blackmailing, well that was the trend back then of the agencies (still is) so I just floated my idea. But I know for a fact that all the confessions of langra's and kaana's and commando's and chotta etc. which were aired every day on national television during the 90's were fabricated and confessions under severe torture so this must be something similar.

3 - Armed men that hold families belong to MQM, all of them? How intelligent!

1. all videos are on youtube .. alternatively .. I have also posted earlier in this thread too . perhaps you did not really read my posts

2. again .. where is your proof ? You are alleging that 7 agencies who individually interrogate a terrorist .. and then have a joint report (JIT) .. that all these agencies did so through torture .. wow! .. where is the evidence bacha? Talk is cheap ... as I said .. i dont see the point of discussing if you just continue to live in your fantasies

3. Yes - MQM armed men do that ... try to utter a few words against Altaf ... you will soon know how it works ... if not all .. majority of them are MQM'ers

Please read my responses above of your repetitive posts. I do have another question for you, I expect an answer to this as well. How long would you be able to resist under torture if someone was forcing you to say something? Just give me the answer in minutes.......the torture would include severe beatings, electric shocks, hanging upside down, anal probing with batons dipped in chillies, stretching of legs in opposite directions, tie-ups on slabs of ice etc. Bari bari baaten kerna bohat asaan hai.

How is this relevant? whether I prefer to die then confess a crime that I did not commit .. is not relevant .. what is relevant is that you as an MQM spokesperson .. provide some evidence that these criminals were indeed tortured .. your word .. has no value for me.

He said partition was wrong, the Indian subcontinent should have been divided into 2 parts (1 Part Pakistan and other part India - No Banladesh). Pakistan on this side should have been much bigger in size to accommodate the part that was given on the other side of India. That was the idea of partition floated by the founders of Pakistan movement.

During 1960's and 1970's operations against east Pakistan drove hundreds of thousands of Pakistani's into Indian territory to seek shelter, as they grew fed up of the injustice and treachery of the west Pakistani politicians they decided to fight for their rights and mukti bahini (the freedom fighters for Bangladesh) was formed. they were trained, supplied and sheltered by India, these men were branded traitors by west Pakistan. The same men are knows as heroes in east Pakistan....now knows as Bangladesh! But it was not just these men that fought for their freedom but the whole of Bangladesh.

Did you learn your lesson from that mistake? NO! and you continued to trample the rights of Mohajirs, Baloch, Pathan and even Sindhi's. You continue to do so and you wonder why Balochistan demands freedom, why NWFP and the whole tribal belt still does not recognize the constitution of Pakistan and why AH made that speech as a political statement! Ever wonder why the speech was made? Why is the most important question that you all should have asked!

Amazing .. let me make it simple for you .. because you are so blinded to support Altaf that you have really lost it:

1. Did he make this provocative speech in India? .. is India an enemy territory or not?
2. Did he ask indians for asylum to muhajirs .. yes or no?
3. His exact words were .. partition is a big blunder in history of mankind.. what was he trying to do? Apart from showing his loyalty to indians that Pakistan was a mistake .. and begging for India to take muhajirs as immigrants??
4. Don't try to divert from the real issue. Don't be a hypocrite or twist words. Did he not call the partition the biggest blunder in the history of mankind? If you say he wanted only 2 parts .. no Bangladesh .. then why in a different video where he tried (unsuccesfully) to jjustify his remarks said that he wanted all Muslims of subcontinent to unite? So, either his justification is flawed or you are flawed? I am sure you will take on for your peer.

Stop defending a british national who is a traitor.

No, Pakistani territory should have extended deeper into India and Bangladesh should not have existed as a part of Pakistan, ever. Compensation in territory should have been provided to west Pakistan instead of creating an east Pakistan.

Wow - so for someone who claims partition was not good and mass migration was bad .. wanted more migration? What stupid logic is that? You wanted so many Bengalis to move from their homes to India? and expected Indians to happily accept this? Now I am sure you are not only gullible but reflects your low IQ ... again no evidence .. so i consider this babbling..

You want me to go and check MQM website for dates of that letter? Don't you think the write of that letter would have done the exact same thing? Wouldn't he/she have taken up those dates from MQM website or other sources to plan the letter? You aren't very bright, are you?

haha .. typical fox news rebuttal .. man .. you didn't answer .. 1) M Kamal accepting most part of the letter .. 2) M Kamal totally lying about the addresses .. .. shame on you to ignore the points ..

Major incharge? Dude the chief of ISI during that period has admitted that it was a lie, as well as an army major general (former corps commander of Karachi or something during the operation).

haha .. do you know how these operations are conducted? The dudes you mention sit in their air con room and normally major rank officers are in charge of field activities ... besides we all now that Brig Imtiaz Billa is the biggest liar on planet .. Also, have a look at the blog below .. that belongs to an urdu speaker .. who also points to MQM .. his contacts are there .. so feel free to engage him too .. if you do deny it .. like you have denied everything else with closed eyes/brains .. then provide some evidence

Republic of Jinnahpur

I think you are mixing me with someone else on the ISI report.

Yes I reckon .. as you have never provided any evidence .. and thats because you have none

And you are right, Qiyamat ke din har kisi ka hisaab hoga, un ka bhi jinhon ne without proof dosron pe ilzaam lagayee aur duniya bhar mei dhandhoora peeta. Afaq Ahmed, too, is going to be released today and no single man has committed more murders then this man yet he walks scott free today. This is your justice system! Lekin Allah hisaab lega sab se, including me and you!

See this is what I don't like about people like you ... to quote you as in bold above .. so justice system belongs to all Pakistanis but ofcourse you are self acclaimed foreign national ... so clearly you will say YOUR justice system.

On Afaq Ahmed .... where is your evidence bhai? talk is cheap .. heck . do you have a confessional video??

Lastly, I notice that you have been brainwashed so badly that you will not accept any evidence .. that I putforth .. like confessional video, NRO lists, Altaf's body guard interview etc etc .. in return .. you have not given a single shred of evidence . accept your flawed arguments and denials ..

So .. in reply if you don't provide evidence .. don't bother replying . .. because that will only prove that you are wrong and MQM are the worst butchers on the planet.

---------- Post added at 04:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 PM ----------

its simple MQM fanboys will deny facts deny even if the angels come down and tell them ALTAF & MQM militant wing is messed up!! even if you give them videos they will say they are self defence videos! you give them footage of confession they say it is tortured confession!

you can't argue with ignorant so let it go!

I agree with you bro .. unfortunately, this is the same conclusion I can reach after debating this 'so-called' banker .. and in return they don't give any evidence of the innocence of their masters .. shame on them ..

 

[Evil Flare]

---------- Post added at 07:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ----------