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Jinnah Was Right

Jinnah was an intelligent statesman who could see through distant future. The two nation theory is still valid with or without whatever taking place in the other side of the border. Islam will always retain it's district culture and philosophy.
 
That’s a flawed argument. Elections don’t work on absolute numbers in that just because the Muslim population would have been 40% that you’d see around the same percentage of Muslim supported elected representatives.

The distribution of votes in each constituency is what determines the outcome and Muslims in India are spread out too much to influence elections. The Muslim vote in Pakistan & Bangladesh would have similarly been diluted since millions of Hindus, Sikhs & Muslims would not have migrated. So the net impact of this ‘40% Muslim vote in United India’ would have been much, much smaller than the absolute numbers of Muslims in United India, and this whole ‘Ghar Waapsi’ Hindutva BS would have been just as vicious, if not more.

Jinnah saw the writing on the wall long before anyone else. The underlying geographical demographic distribution of the Muslim & Hindu populations of a United India and the underlying religious tensions and especially the underlying Hindu insecurities and anger over Muslim rule were never going to allow a ‘secular’ Federation in the long term, especially when even the Congress party (supposedly the more secular of Indian political parties) rejected Jinnah’s idea of a Federation with significant autonomy for Muslim majority areas.

Indian Hindus can’t even tolerate a tiny number of Muslims in Kashmir exercising autonomy (see the widespread support for revocation of Article 370), let alone tolerating autonomy for vast swathes of Muslim majority territories that today form Pakistan & Bangladesh.
Indian muslims in British India were just over 25% of the total population yet they won 30 seats out of 102 seats while the remaining went to Congress party. So the percentage of seats were around 29%. In an undivided India, muslims would have made 40% of total population and would have got atleast 40% of the seats. So your assumptions hold no water. You in your quest to prove Jinnah right forget that there were comparable records to prove my point.

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Indian muslims in British India were just over 25% of the total population yet they won 30 seats out of 102 seats while the remaining went to Congress party. So the percentage of seats were around 29%. In an undivided India, muslims would have made 40% of total population and would have got atleast 40% of the seats. So your assumptions hold no water. You in your quest to prove Jinnah right forget that there were comparable records to prove my point.

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Muslims are 15% in India. How many % of Muslims are in Indian National Assembly.
 
Muslims are 15% in India. How many % of Muslims are in Indian National Assembly.
Very few as of now(27 to be precise), that comes around 5%. But they have never won more than 50 seats in all these years. Indian muslims are a scattered lot, so they aren't many muslim majority constituencies.

72 years on and where is that "secular state" everyone is harping on about? If it didn't happen in 72 years, it wouldn't happen in another 72 years. As for Pakistan, it isn't Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah that we should be grateful for, we ought to be thanking Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah who granted us people like Jinnah and Iqbal that strove for a Muslim Homeland.

As for India, that country has destroyed any chance it had to peacefully coexist with Muslims the day it allied itself with the illegal, illegitimate, criminal, liar, murderer state of israel. Had India gone and befriend the b@$t@rd child of the anti-christ (israel) there existed a possibility of peace between India and Muslims, not just Pakistan. But now the any avenue of a reproachment between the Islamic World and India are shut, closed and void.

Pakistanis ... do not make the mistake of taking what you've been given, for granted. Because if you do, remember that nations before were punished with awesome punishment from Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah. Ask the nation of Sodom & Gomorrah, nation of Aad and the last nation which was granted so many favors from Allah, Banu Isra'eel. They were all destroyed, the Yahood were destroyed twice. First was a Babylonian Army, followed by the Roman Army.

Pakistaniyun agar aaj bhi tum Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah ka Hukum nahin mano gay, to yaad rakhna, Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah Ghafoor-ur-Raheem to hai, magar jab Al-Akbar ki nafarmani karo gay, to Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah ka ghazab tumhari ruh kamp utha dey gi.

Don't be foolish, ignorant, or arrogant. Don't make that fatal mistake. You have a destiny to fulfill, a destiny which is both glorious and will please Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah only if you abandon your foolish waywardness and hold strong to your Imaan and stand firm on the Sunnah of Nabi Muhammad Alaihi Salaat-u-Wassalam. Remember whose (Alaihi Salaat-u-Wassalam) Ummah you belong to. Remember this Ummah is the LAST ONE.
Forget about India, your so called Islamic world is trying to get closer to Israel..
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Who Cares

Indian Muslims decided to stay in India after the partition, so they need to pay the consequences. It's obvious that they are second class citizens now, and are on their way to be slaves of their Hindu Masters. They made their bed, now they need to sleep on it. Unfortunately, they have no place in Pakistan and they cannot be settled in Pakistan.

We can thank Jinnah who had the foresight to see this issue long before.
So be it... Now thank Jinnah and go to sleep:lazy2:.
 
Again, whoever rules the nation state, the state is secular irrespective of the rulers. RSS Communist or Congress.


Past 70 years Jinnah's Pakistan is in quite a lot of trouble, your nation as a whole is comparable to Bihar in India. If Jinnah was alive, he'd probably migrate to his house in Mumbai, which has a helluva lot better standard than land of pure.
You're repeating your pov without even considering what will be the state of migration. How do you distribute 40% of population without getting majority in a single constituency? Do tell me the math of that.

Who cares how many Muslim legislatures are elected. Did all Muslims vote for another Muslim? No. Maybe in your imagination that's how it works, not so much here.
Pakistani's scale of secularism is defined as how many MNA's from one community elected. Dayum!

Yeah, he might as well as had the foresight of Pakistan going into a religious dominated kleptocracy. Thank you Jinnah indeed.

If you're talking about China, sure. They have particular types of states and unions, or if you're talking about gulfies who come in agreement with other Arabs to send laborers from Egypt or Jordan, yes. Such arrangement don't work in India. People migrate from place to place, after all we all are Indians first and foremost.

There is no contract between Kashmiris and India that'd give them any right to self determination. Don't make things up, art 370 is no contract, it was a temporary arrangement as is written in the article itself which granted the state a level of autonomy which are now repealed in a legal way defined by the constitution.

India has violated no compacts with anyone, Kashmiris are Indians as much as I or any other person who owns the citizenship as it should be the case.






The standard of living in india is WAYYYYY WAY below that of Pakistan. india is the world's biggest open sewer with hyper ugly people with little weiners. REMEMBER it is india which has the world's highest number of severely malnourished and extreme poor compared to ANY other country on earth.....:azn::

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...-third-of-worlds-poorest-says-World-Bank.html

https://m.telegraphindia.com/india/streanh-in-numbers/cid/1684099

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ChAB&usg=AOvVaw2jTTjlVHJzNWSke5ock2KU&ampcf=1


https://m.timesofindia.com/india/India-has-40-of-worlds-malnourished-Expert/articleshow/20840897.cms

https://blogs.worldbank.org/opendata/half-world-s-poor-live-just-5-countries





The above is the reality of the indian race and nation. By the above comparison, Pakistan is a resounding success.......:azn:.......Jinnah's 2 nation theory is hence therefore a success.... :azn:
 
Completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Whatever Pakistan's flaws, they are our flaws, and we are responsible for fixing them. At least we're not suffering under the yoke of a bigoted & hate driven genocidal maniac like Modi.
Huh! Your flaws are in your society. If Jinnah was right, then he would have had an Azerbaijan. Whether you like or hate Modi, he is doing a fine job ruling it's quite natural for Pakistanis to be unhappy about his policies. Duh!

I never said 'there wouldn't be a Muslim majority in a single constituency' - I said that merely throwing the 40% number around is misleading, since the existing Indian Muslim population is too spread out in India to make much of a difference at the constituency level (barring a handful of constituencies) and that even on the Pakistani & Bangladeshi side the number of constituencies that would have a Muslim majority would be reduced because millions of people wouldn't have migrated.

Overall, the number of Muslim seats in the National Assembly would be significantly lower than the actual population of Muslims in a hypothetical 'United India'. You just have to look at how many seats Muslims have currently in India despite a 200 million population. Add in regional ethno-cultural-sectarian political dynamics and the Muslim vote would be split even further. There would be no Muslim answer to the kind of Hindu nationalism that the BJP spouts other than a party that argued for Muslim nationalism, which would logically conclude in a demand for a separate country - and that is exactly what Jinnah had the foresight to recognize and thank goodness for that.

Imagine a Muslim nationalist movement years after the British left, demanding a homeland akin to the Khalistan movement - the bloodshed & civil war it would have caused. It may very well have made the violence during partition look insignificant.
Yeah you were saying Muslims wouldn't vote for one party and are distributed, while Hindus will vote for BJP and so on. The existing Indian Muslims is only 14%. So, it would make sense if they don't come majority in constituencies. Now you're comparing 40% with 14%. Given Pakistan and Bangladesh were already Muslim majority and many regions inside India that previously had Muslim majority, no way in gods green earth would there be a Hindu nationalist party ruling with absolute majority.

You already made the us vs them when you demanded a separate nation. It's not Hindus who wanted to evict 40% of India's population. Even then you're claiming Muslims will be divided on ethno linguistic lines? I'm sorry but that's not logical. Historically that division happens when you become absolute majority. What Jinnah saw is an alter ego of Muslim in Hindus, but there is a lot, quite a lot of difference in that mentality. That's why you lot are trying hard to prove him right by bringing up Hindu nationalist parties, but there is a long way for BJP to go for what Jinnah and many Pakistanis hope India would become.

It's not hard to imagine, a direct action day post 1947, would exactly look like the real one. Khalistan is more or less a joke with no major support from Sikhs, which lead to it's failure.

t has nothing to do with China or the 'gulfies' - the suggestions I made can be implemented within any country. Migration occurs between nations under a legal framework so it can also occur within nations under a legal framework.

India made a compact with the Kashmiris, Pakistan and the UNSC/international community, to allow the Kashmiris to determine their own nationhood by means of a plebiscite when it herself went to the UNSC and committed to the UNSC Resolutions MULTIPLE times. It made a second compact with the Kashmirs when it agreed to article 370 as an interim arrangement till the resolution of the J&K dispute in accordance with the UNSC Resolutions.

Kashmiris are not Indian, they never have been - the UNSC Resolutions are a clear statement to that effect. What you have is India occupying millions of Kashmiris and forcing them to become Indians at the barrel of a gun - that is the example of a weak, insecure & fascist State, which is why it shouldn't surprise anyone that the BJP is bringing the bigotry and fascism that has always existed in India out into the light for everyone to see.
Like I said, we are not trying to create division among states but a union. Your ideas will lead to further division among states.

India never made any such agreements with Pakistan on art 370, and most of you are hearing it for the first time, when it was repealed. Neither did we make any agreement with Kashmiris, article 370 was what we gave them as a temporary provision without any promise regarding Pakistan or a plebiscite. As far as India is concerned, Kashmir is part of India legally. When you hold Indian passport and Ration cards/ID's you're Indian. Others can take an exit, choose not to avail these. Not interested in discussing the dispute, ig it's been discussed to death here.

The standard of living in india is WAYYYYY WAY below that of Pakistan.
True it's way way below.
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Huh! Your flaws are in your society. If Jinnah was right, then he would have had an Azerbaijan. Whether you like or hate Modi, he is doing a fine job ruling it's quite natural for Pakistanis to be unhappy about his policies. Duh!


Yeah you were saying Muslims wouldn't vote for one party and are distributed, while Hindus will vote for BJP and so on. The existing Indian Muslims is only 14%. So, it would make sense if they don't come majority in constituencies. Now you're comparing 40% with 14%. Given Pakistan and Bangladesh were already Muslim majority and many regions inside India that previously had Muslim majority, no way in gods green earth would there be a Hindu nationalist party ruling with absolute majority.

You already made the us vs them when you demanded a separate nation. It's not Hindus who wanted to evict 40% of India's population. Even then you're claiming Muslims will be divided on ethno linguistic lines? I'm sorry but that's not logical. Historically that division happens when you become absolute majority. What Jinnah saw is an alter ego of Muslim in Hindus, but there is a lot, quite a lot of difference in that mentality. That's why you lot are trying hard to prove him right by bringing up Hindu nationalist parties, but there is a long way for BJP to go for what Jinnah and many Pakistanis hope India would become.

It's not hard to imagine, a direct action day post 1947, would exactly look like the real one. Khalistan is more or less a joke with no major support from Sikhs, which lead to it's failure.


Like I said, we are not trying to create division among states but a union. Your ideas will lead to further division among states.

India never made any such agreements with Pakistan on art 370, and most of you are hearing it for the first time, when it was repealed. Neither did we make any agreement with Kashmiris, article 370 was what we gave them as a temporary provision without any promise regarding Pakistan or a plebiscite. As far as India is concerned, Kashmir is part of India legally. When you hold Indian passport and Ration cards/ID's you're Indian. Others can take an exit, choose not to avail these. Not interested in discussing the dispute, ig it's been discussed to death here.


True it's way way below.
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Any REAL evidence? Not indi-manipulated indi-pedia...............:lol:
 
In an undivided India, muslims would have made 40% of total population and would have got atleast 40% of the seats.
What percentage of the population of India are Muslims today and what percentage of seats have they gotten?

You can’t compare the political dynamics of British India with the political dynamics of an undivided India. Furthermore, if you’re referring to the number of seats win by the Muslim League in the 1945 elections, the M.L. won those seats because it campaigned for Pakistan. That is precisely what I referred to in my previous posts, that unifying the Muslim vote in a hypothetical ‘United India’ would have required a party running on ‘Muslim nationalism’ which would have inevitably involved a separate country since Muslims would have been a minority.
 
As time gets older Jinnah gets younger...

He was defeating his opponents while being alive, and is defeating them while being dead...

A winner in the Dunya, and insha’Allah a winner in Ahiret..

Bahtiyar ones followed him to be saved from the clutches of the Ram Rajya, and Bed-Baht ones disobeyed him to be devoured into the hell hole of the Ram Rajya...

Nur ichinde yatsin - May he rest within Nur....
 
Huh! Your flaws are in your society. If Jinnah was right, then he would have had an Azerbaijan. Whether you like or hate Modi, he is doing a fine job ruling it's quite natural for Pakistanis to be unhappy about his policies. Duh!
Jinnah was right, but he could only lay the foundation and he wasn't alive long enough to really cement certain principles into the constitution. What was done after Jinnah is our fault - that doesn't take away from the fact that Jinnah was correct (he absolutely was) it points to the failure on the part of Pakistanis after him to follow through with the vision he had. But just because there have been failures so far doesn't mean that Pakistanis give up. A nation-state is always a work in progress, there is always room for improvement and that evolution and improvement will continue across generations.
Yeah you were saying Muslims wouldn't vote for one party and are distributed, while Hindus will vote for BJP and so on. The existing Indian Muslims is only 14%. So, it would make sense if they don't come majority in constituencies. Now you're comparing 40% with 14%. Given Pakistan and Bangladesh were already Muslim majority and many regions inside India that previously had Muslim majority, no way in gods green earth would there be a Hindu nationalist party ruling with absolute majority.
40% only works if all 40% can actually vote together - one third of that 40% is within modern India and we can see how many seats in the LS Muslims have. And yes, outside of 'Muslim nationalism' (which would result in demands of significant autonomy, that Nehru rejected, or independence) a single political party would not have been able to unify the Muslim vote. So the end result is that the Muslim vote, splintered into different groups, would not have had anywhere close to the impact that the so called "40% Muslim population' advocates claim.

Jinnah saw the writing on the wall and thank god for that.
That's why you lot are trying hard to prove him right by bringing up Hindu nationalist parties,
Jinnah was correct - it's already been proven. Pakistanis want nothing to do with India. Enjoy your country under the rule of a genocidal bigot.
Like I said, we are not trying to create division among states but a union. Your ideas will lead to further division among states.
Divisions are created when the union itself is an unnatural one - are you saying that the Indian Union is such a weak and artificial one that granting an exception to J&K because of its unique status (disputed territory pending implementation of UNSC Resolutions) would destroy India? If India is that weak that it cannot survive without coercing minorities into allegiance at the barrel of a gun, then it deserves to disintegrate.
India never made any such agreements with Pakistan on art 370, and most of you are hearing it for the first time, when it was repealed. Neither did we make any agreement with Kashmiris, article 370 was what we gave them as a temporary provision without any promise regarding Pakistan or a plebiscite. As far as India is concerned, Kashmir is part of India legally. When you hold Indian passport and Ration cards/ID's you're Indian. Others can take an exit, choose not to avail these. Not interested in discussing the dispute, ig it's been discussed to death here.
The UNSC Resolutions have both India & Pakistan as parties to the dispute and as signatories to the UN Charter both States are committed to implement them. The Indian government, after passage of the UNSC Resolutions, repeatedly committed to implement the resolutions and specifically the requirement of a plebiscite, so that is right there an international agreement/commitment made by India on the status of J&K and the means to resolve the dispute.

And please point out where exactly the expiration date of Article 370 is listed. Did the duly elected representatives of the J&K legislature vote on the repeal of 370? This was a unilateral revocation of autonomy by an occupying power.

Kashmiris are not Indians, and more and more of them will refuse to be so long as India treats them as property that it can steal/occupy at the barrel of a gun. Like I said before, nations are formed when the residents of said nations willingly enter into a compact to be part of that nation. Forcing allegiance at the barrel of a gun, as India is doing in J&K, is not nationhood - it is plain and simple fascist thuggery & criminal activity.
 
What percentage of the population of India are Muslims today and what percentage of seats have they gotten?

You can’t compare the political dynamics of British India with the political dynamics of an undivided India. Furthermore, if you’re referring to the number of seats win by the Muslim League in the 1945 elections, the M.L. won those seats because it campaigned for Pakistan. That is precisely what I referred to in my previous posts, that unifying the Muslim vote in a hypothetical ‘United India’ would have required a party running on ‘Muslim nationalism’ which would have inevitably involved a separate country since Muslims would have been a minority.
Muslim league has been winning big time since its jump into big stream. Before that muslim independent candidates use to win muslim majority areas.
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Even the elections of 1920 had considerable muslim representatives. Check out their names here..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Indian_general_election

Many muslims fought as independent candidates during 1934, 1937 elections and won. So in present day, if parties like BJP had flexed hindu nationalism, there would have been a rise of muslim nationalism as well. Let me tell you that since the rise of BJP in all of India, Owaisi's AIMIM which was mostly a Hyderabad based party has become popular in other parts of India and infact been winning in unexpected constituencies.
 
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You can really pick out the anger, frustration and outright hatred for the way India is splitting at the moment amongst Indians:coffee:
 
So in present day, if parties like BJP had flexed hindu nationalism, so would their be a rise of muslim nationalism.
And that’s what Jinnah foresaw - Hindu nationalism would be met with Muslim nationalism and you’d essentially have a civil war, and with a Central government controlled military, Muslims would be the losers.

Jinnah was absolutely correct and saved everyone from a lot of bloodshed. Had India not reneged on the UNSC commitment to hold a plebiscite in J&K, both countries might be a lot further along in development and taking steps towards an economic union /Free Trade Zone.
 
And that’s what Jinnah foresaw - Hindu nationalism would be met with Muslim nationalism and you’d essentially have a civil war, and with a Central government controlled military, Muslims would be the losers.

Jinnah was absolutely correct and saved everyone from a lot of bloodshed. Had India not reneged on the UNSC commitment to hold a plebiscite in J&K, both countries might be a lot further along in development and taking steps towards an economic union /Free Trade Zone.

I have long believed, if India had not been stupid in Kashmir, as you say South Asia would be much more unified

To OUR DETRIMENT

As a much smaller state we would be an extension of India's economic, cultural sphere with a whole host of sell our politicians willing to bow to India


Kashmir saved us

The emnity over Kashmir ensured our military, and state independence

With what's happening in India today this was vital
 
And that’s what Jinnah foresaw - Hindu nationalism would be met with Muslim nationalism and you’d essentially have a civil war, and with a Central government controlled military, Muslims would be the losers.

Jinnah was absolutely correct and saved everyone from a lot of bloodshed. Had India not reneged on the UNSC commitment to hold a plebiscite in J&K, both countries might be a lot further along in development and taking steps towards an economic union /Free Trade Zone.
And what makes you think that the military would have not had muslim soldiers/officers. In an undivided India, muslims would have had atleast 30-40% of proportional participation in Armed Forces, So would have been the case with Central Government. A central government wouldn't have survived without muslim population/muslim leaders support. And with constant cross migrations, present day Pakistan would have had larger land mass than it is presently. You essentially would have had a civil war at some point of time but present day Pakistan and Bangladesh were always safe centres for muslims. Only the muslims in present day Indian mainland would have been vulnerable. So you lost out on Kashmir, possibly good part of Gujarat, Rajasthan and Punjab. Agreed that Kashmir is an issue which has consumed both our countries.
 

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