JF-XX(Strike Fighter)

[Khafee]

Why wo't Pak go for J 31?

still in dev phase

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

still in dev phase

Looks like it is gonna come out much earlier than AZM

 

[Sine Nomine]

Getting H 6?



Mirages are better and they did a better job on 27 and they were the real surprise

Chor bahi jo randi rona Bhart karey ga in kai aney par wo dekh ney wala hou ga.

"Parmanu hathyro sai lais yeah ghatak visahl veman,banaye ga bhart ko nishana"
"Cheen aur Pakistan ke aik aur napak sajish"

 

[niaz]

There won't be any major R&D apart from flight testing of new wing configuration.

Sir,we don't need 10,000 kg of payload,the idea of using PGM's with pinpoint accuracy like
GBU-39/53 Small Diameter Bombs or BLU 105 isn't bomb truck supportive.
RD 93 is alreading powering JFT and we are ok with 3 fuel tanks config.Mirage 5/3 is powered by engine which gives it 9436 lbf try thrust,load carrying and range capability is 1,250 km (675 nmi, 777 mi) hi-lo-hi profile, payload two 400 kg bomb and max external fuel.Total payload is 4000kg.Total internal fuel is in between 2350 L to 3340 L,while Mirage 2000 14500 lbf engine is giving it payload of 6300kg.
Now JF-XX SF

• RD 93 would provide 11,105 of dry thrust,new version may have better already 7% increase in Rd-33mk.
• Already internal fuel is 2329 kg,new wing design which would 100% larger would allow almost 500 to 1000 kg of more fuel,total fuel would be almost 3000+ kg.
• As @Naif al Hilali calculated in thread https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17s-ferry-and-combat-ranges.462726/
  • Internal Fuel + Targeting Pod + Two 2,400 Pound Precision Guided Bombs + Two SD-10A + Two PL-5EII
    27,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
    5,000 pounds [4,600 liters] fuel
    - 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
    - 800 pounds climbout covering 50 nautical miles
    - 500 pounds cruise 80 nautical miles to target
    - 1,600 pounds reserves for five minutes combat (including two minutes afterburner use)
    - 800 pounds bring back all drop tanks and missiles, climbout & cruise up to 130 nautical miles
    - 800 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
    @ 130 nautical miles mission radius
  • It is safely assumed that range in A2G is around 700km.
• Current payload is in between 4000 and 4500 we want 5500 kg.
• In nutshell our target is 5500 kg of payload and Range of 1200km.
• Which can be achieved by having,
  • More efficient version of RD-93 like Rd-33mk or 93MS.
  • Extensive use of composites in wings area would save a lot of weight.
  • Stabilizer and removal of their related control mechanism, would save some weight.
• Going for new engine kills the whole idea of cost saving by using existing facilities.

We don't need a new power plant,Rd 93 would do the job.


My layman opinion is, it would better if it's a clean sheet design or above all we go for J-31.


I am trying to make it fly

Honorable Sir,

Permit me to explain the reason behind my comments.

First JF-17 Block 3 is expected to be operating with PAF in 2022. That is about 3 years after Block 2. On this basis, JF-XX wouldn’t be ready before 2025 and would probably remain in the PAF frontline service for about 25 years, which means up to 2050.

By 2025 and beyond our main adversary (IAF) would have a fleet consisting of Rafael, Su-30 MK1 and the 5th generation PAKFA/FGFA (a Joint Venture between India & Russia). JF-XX must, therefore, be at least in the class of Eurofighter & Rafael; otherwise, it would be an exercise in futility. While F-16 block 70 or Eurofighter are unlikely to be offered for sale to Pakistan, Chinese J-20 & J-31 are available.

For your convenience, Eurofighter performance is summarised as under:

· Empty weight: 11,000 kg[407][N 6] (24,000 lb)

· Loaded weight: 16,000 kg[408][N 7] (35,270 lb)

· Max. takeoff weight: 23,500 kg[406] (51,800 lb)

· Fuel capacity: 5,000 kg (11,020 lb) internal[409][410]

· Powerplant: 2 × Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofan

o Dry thrust: 60 kN (13,500 lbf) each

o Thrust with afterburner: >90 kN[407][411] (20,230 lbf) each

Performance

· Maximum speed: **At altitude: Mach 2 class[412] (2,495 km/h or 1,550 mph at 10,975m altitude)[413][414]

o At sea level: Mach 1.25[405] (1,530 km/h or 950 mph)[415]

o Supercruise: Mach 1.5[178]

· Range: 2,900 km (1,800 mi)

· Combat radius:
(with 3 × external 1,000 l tanks)

o Ground attack, lo-lo-lo: 601 km (325 nmi)

o Ground attack, hi-lo-hi: 1,389 km (750 nmi)

o Air defence with 3-hr combat air patrol: 185 km (100 nmi)

o Air defence with 10-min. loiter: 1,389 km (750 nmi) [406][418]

· Ferry range: >3,790 km (2,350 mi; with 3 × drop tanks)

· Service ceiling: 19,812 m (65,000 ft[416][417])

· Rate of climb: >318 m/s[419][N 8][420] (62,600 ft/min)

· Wing loading: 312 kg/m²[406] (63.9 lb/ft²)

· Thrust/weight: 1.15 (interceptor configuration)[406][421]

· g-load limits: +9 g to −3 g[422]


You would notice that in order to achieve the required performance, Eurofighter designers fitted it with 2 engines.

You would agree that so many modifications the JF-17 would increase in weight. Even the latest version of RD-93 is unlikely to provide sufficient thrust to JF-XX to enable it to match Rafael or Eurofighter. Therefore unless the JF-XX is fitted with a far more powerful engine than JF-17 block 3, there would not be much of an improvement and little point in its development. It would be prudent to go for the Chinese J-20 or J-31 instead.

As I had already mentioned the idea is very good. However, if you want JF-XX to be really a match for the IAF fleet, you need either a far more powerful engine or modify the fuselage to accept 2 engines,

Since I am not an aeronautical engineer, my arguments are based on common sense alone. It is quite possible that I am completely in the wrong and I would be the last person to discourage someone who can think of "out of the box" solutions.

 

[Tps43]

Chor bahi jo randi rona Bhart karey ga in kai aney par wo dekh ney wala hou ga.

"Parmanu hathyro sai lais yeah ghatak visahl veman,banaye ga bhart ko nishana"
"Cheen aur Pakistan ke aik aur napak sajish"

Hahahahaha

 

[Sine Nomine]

Honorable Sir,

Permit me to explain the reason behind my comments.

First JF-17 Block 3 is expected to be operating with PAF in 2022. That is about 3 years after Block 2. On this basis, JF-XX wouldn’t be ready before 2025 and would probably remain in the PAF frontline service for about 25 years, which means up to 2050.

By 2025 and beyond our main adversary (IAF) would have a fleet consisting of Rafael, Su-30 MK1 and the 5th generation PAKFA/FGFA (a Joint Venture between India & Russia). JF-XX must, therefore, be at least in the class of Eurofighter & Rafael; otherwise, it would be an exercise in futility. While F-16 block 70 or Eurofighter are unlikely to be offered for sale to Pakistan, Chinese J-20 & J-31 are available.

For your convenience, Eurofighter performance is summarised as under:

· Empty weight: 11,000 kg[407][N 6] (24,000 lb)

· Loaded weight: 16,000 kg[408][N 7] (35,270 lb)

· Max. takeoff weight: 23,500 kg[406] (51,800 lb)

· Fuel capacity: 5,000 kg (11,020 lb) internal[409][410]

· Powerplant: 2 × Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofan

o Dry thrust: 60 kN (13,500 lbf) each

o Thrust with afterburner: >90 kN[407][411] (20,230 lbf) each

Performance

· Maximum speed: **At altitude: Mach 2 class[412] (2,495 km/h or 1,550 mph at 10,975m altitude)[413][414]

o At sea level: Mach 1.25[405] (1,530 km/h or 950 mph)[415]

o Supercruise: Mach 1.5[178]

· Range: 2,900 km (1,800 mi)

· Combat radius:
(with 3 × external 1,000 l tanks)

o Ground attack, lo-lo-lo: 601 km (325 nmi)

o Ground attack, hi-lo-hi: 1,389 km (750 nmi)

o Air defence with 3-hr combat air patrol: 185 km (100 nmi)

o Air defence with 10-min. loiter: 1,389 km (750 nmi) [406][418]

· Ferry range: >3,790 km (2,350 mi; with 3 × drop tanks)

· Service ceiling: 19,812 m (65,000 ft[416][417])

· Rate of climb: >318 m/s[419][N 8][420] (62,600 ft/min)

· Wing loading: 312 kg/m²[406] (63.9 lb/ft²)

· Thrust/weight: 1.15 (interceptor configuration)[406][421]

· g-load limits: +9 g to −3 g[422]


You would notice that in order to achieve the required performance, Eurofighter designers fitted it fitted with 2 engines.

You would agree that so many modifications the JF-17 would increase in weight. Even the latest version of RD-93 is unlikely to provide sufficient thrust to JF-XX to enable it to match Rafael or Eurofighter. Therefore unless the JF-XX is fitted with a far more powerful engine than JF-17 block 3, there would not be much of an improvement and little point in its development. It would be prudent to go for the Chinese J-20 or J-31 instead.

As I had already mentioned the idea is very good. However, if you want JF-XX to be really a match for the IAF fleet, you need either a far more powerful engine or modify the fuselage to accept 2 engines,

Since I am not an aeronautical engineer, my arguments are based on common sense alone. It is quite possible that I am completely in the wrong and I would be the last person to discourage someone who can think of "out of the box" solutions.

Sir,i agree and i am taking your point.
For that we have to use two engines,two RD series in same configuration as that on Mig series.Going for AL series of engine destroys whole idea of cost cutting.We are going for Rd series MRO if i am not wrong.
Putting two engines means we are investing a lot into it but that would be still less then new one.
By doing that it can be a replacement for F-16 also.

 

[Sine Nomine]

@niaz Sir, Here is another of my rough estimate about twin engine JF-XX.
data from JF-17,F-16xl,F-16,EAF has been used.

General characteristics
• Crew: 1 or 2
• Length: 15.5 m (50 ft) ( fuselage is lengthened by 1 feet by the addition of a sections at the joints of the main fuselage sub-assemblies)
• Wingspan: 10.44 m (34 ft 3 in)
• Height: 5.28 m (17.3 ft)(Would allow more Ground clearance)
• Wing area: 646 ft² (60.0 m²)
• Empty weight: 10,000kg
• (EW of single JFT is 6,586kg, weight of RD-33 is 1055kg,6586+1055=7641, taking a wild Guess at usage of extra material on construction of wings, fuselage and V-Tails, let’s say it’s 2359 kg,7641+2359=10000)
• Useful load: 7000 kg
• Max. takeoff weight: 24000 kg (From the fact that Empty weight is 10,000 kg, Payload in 7,000 kg and Internal fuel capacity is 7,000 kg)
• G-limit: +8 g / -3 g
• Internal Fuel Capacity: 7,000 kg (Due to Delta wings already our estimate of fuel stands at 3300 kg[which is based on calculation that F-16 carries 3200 kg of fuel, while XL carries 5100kg] , let’s assume that it’s total capacity is around 7000 kg of fuel in fuselage and wing tanks)
• Powerplant: 2 × Klimov RD-33MK afterburning turbofans
• Dry thrust: 53.0 kN (11,900 lbf) each
• Thrust with afterburner: 88.3 kN (19,840 lbf) each
•
Performance
• Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,960.1 km/h; 1,217.9 mph)
• Service ceiling: 16,916 m (55,500 ft)
• Thrust/weight: ???
• Range: ~2400 km(Internal fuel)
• Combat Radius: ~1200km(Internal fuel)
Armament
• Guns: 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon
• Hardpoints: 12 pylons with a capacity of up to 7,000 kg of payload (6 × under-wing, 2 × wing-tip, 4 × under-fuselage)

 

[Silicon0000]

@niaz Sir, Here is another of my rough estimate about twin engine JF-XX.
data from JF-17,F-16xl,F-16,EAF has been used.
View attachment 554216
General characteristics
• Crew: 1 or 2
• Length: 15.5 m (50 ft) ( fuselage is lengthened by 1 feet by the addition of a sections at the joints of the main fuselage sub-assemblies)
• Wingspan: 10.44 m (34 ft 3 in)
• Height: 5.28 m (17.3 ft)(Would allow more Ground clearance)
• Wing area: 646 ft² (60.0 m²)
• Empty weight: 10,000kg
• (EW of single JFT is 6,586kg, weight of RD-33 is 1055kg,6586+1055=7641, taking a wild Guess at usage of extra material on construction of wings, fuselage and V-Tails, let’s say it’s 2359 kg,7641+2359=10000)
• Useful load: 7000 kg
• Max. takeoff weight: 24000 kg (From the fact that Empty weight is 10,000 kg, Payload in 7,000 kg and Internal fuel capacity is 7,000 kg)
• G-limit: +8 g / -3 g
• Internal Fuel Capacity: 7,000 kg (Due to Delta wings already our estimate of fuel stands at 3300 kg[which is based on calculation that F-16 carries 3200 kg of fuel, while XL carries 5100kg] , let’s assume that it’s total capacity is around 7000 kg of fuel in fuselage and wing tanks)
• Powerplant: 2 × Klimov RD-33MK afterburning turbofans
• Dry thrust: 53.0 kN (11,900 lbf) each
• Thrust with afterburner: 88.3 kN (19,840 lbf) each
•
Performance
• Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,960.1 km/h; 1,217.9 mph)
• Service ceiling: 16,916 m (55,500 ft)
• Thrust/weight: ???
• Range: ~2400 km(Internal fuel)
• Combat Radius: ~1200km(Internal fuel)
Armament
• Guns: 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon
• Hardpoints: 12 pylons with a capacity of up to 7,000 kg of payload (6 × under-wing, 2 × wing-tip, 4 × under-fuselage)

First I appreciate your innovative thinking and efforts.

Your first option seems better as it requires minimum trials/development work, which is the basis of conversion of JF17 into stike specific aircraft.

2 engine means almost completely new Aircraft which is right now didn't seems practical. Infact then J10 platform becomes more reasonable option.

Just my views.

 

[Khanivore]

PAF needs a mach 2+ fighter, to fly low and fast, capable of >6,000kg payload out to 1,200km range. H-6K is not suitable for region like Pakistan.

 

[Wow]

It is an excellent idea. I have only two comments. Firstly who will finance the R&D cost? For Thunder cost was shared 50/50 between Pakistan & China. In case Chinese are not interested, can Pakistan afford to finance the development all by herself?

Assuming R&D matters have been resolved. Since the availability of US origin engine is out of the question; is there any Russian or Chinese power plant available that would enable the new fighter to achieve near Mach 1 at sea level, and Mach 2 at altitude with a clean T/W ratio of >1.1, load carrying capacity of about 10,000 KG (16,000 lbs) and range of about 1000 Km at Hi-lo-lo on internal fuel? Because I have a feeling that while the design of the airframe is within the realm of probability, lack of a suitable engine may kill the project.

Shhhhhh shhhhh your ruining the fantasy

 

[niaz]

@niaz Sir, Here is another of my rough estimate about twin engine JF-XX.
data from JF-17,F-16xl,F-16,EAF has been used.
View attachment 554216
General characteristics
• Crew: 1 or 2
• Length: 15.5 m (50 ft) ( fuselage is lengthened by 1 feet by the addition of a sections at the joints of the main fuselage sub-assemblies)
• Wingspan: 10.44 m (34 ft 3 in)
• Height: 5.28 m (17.3 ft)(Would allow more Ground clearance)
• Wing area: 646 ft² (60.0 m²)
• Empty weight: 10,000kg
• (EW of single JFT is 6,586kg, weight of RD-33 is 1055kg,6586+1055=7641, taking a wild Guess at usage of extra material on construction of wings, fuselage and V-Tails, let’s say it’s 2359 kg,7641+2359=10000)
• Useful load: 7000 kg
• Max. takeoff weight: 24000 kg (From the fact that Empty weight is 10,000 kg, Payload in 7,000 kg and Internal fuel capacity is 7,000 kg)
• G-limit: +8 g / -3 g
• Internal Fuel Capacity: 7,000 kg (Due to Delta wings already our estimate of fuel stands at 3300 kg[which is based on calculation that F-16 carries 3200 kg of fuel, while XL carries 5100kg] , let’s assume that it’s total capacity is around 7000 kg of fuel in fuselage and wing tanks)
• Powerplant: 2 × Klimov RD-33MK afterburning turbofans
• Dry thrust: 53.0 kN (11,900 lbf) each
• Thrust with afterburner: 88.3 kN (19,840 lbf) each
•
Performance
• Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,960.1 km/h; 1,217.9 mph)
• Service ceiling: 16,916 m (55,500 ft)
• Thrust/weight: ???
• Range: ~2400 km(Internal fuel)
• Combat Radius: ~1200km(Internal fuel)
Armament
• Guns: 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon
• Hardpoints: 12 pylons with a capacity of up to 7,000 kg of payload (6 × under-wing, 2 × wing-tip, 4 × under-fuselage)

T/W ratio for aircraft is normally the maximum thrust / max T/O weight. In your proposal, it would be 39680/52800 or 0.75

 

[messiach]

No. Bad idea on multiple grounds. Too many empty variables.

JF-XX(Strike Fighter)
https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...amar/8391e952f1ce64eb8e497064bca6b1d37001a09c

 

[mingle]

But we must induct new aircraft already in our inventory like F16 and JF-17 we need to increase the size of airforce and replace legacy jets too.

 

[Sine Nomine]

No. Bad idea on multiple grounds. Too many empty variables.

I know madam but i think it's worth discussion.

T/W ratio for aircraft is normally the maximum thrust / max T/O weight. In your proposal, it would be 39680/52800 or 0.75

Sir,i am putting this whole idea citing the fact that PAF is heading for another lost decade.

 

[princefaisal]

J-31 should be re-designed with single engine having WS-15 series. And then it should be adopted in Project Azm.