JF-17's various initial design phases & design resemblances

[khanasifm]

Same old story 1999 to 2001 waiting for Western avionics and finally delink avionics from aero structure blah blah blah guessing here

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

The more I looked into it---the more it became evident was that the JF17 design---utility and function was totally influenced by the F20 Tigershark aircraft---.

The following video was a great surprise for me---.

In the 1980s, several PAF officers were interested in the F-20. But the induction of the F-16 combined with the F-20's developmental issues (i.e. a crash, lack of backing from the US, etc) prevented it from becoming a factor.

By the time the PAF was looking for a plane like the F-20 (i.e. to replace the F-6s), the F-20 was off-the-table. This pushed the PAF to work with Chengdu and Grumman to bring the F-20's key features - i.e. the GE404 engine, AN/APG-63 radar, etc - to an enlarged F-7.

This was the Sabre II, but a mix of relatively high costs and US embargoes on China over Tienanmen Square canned that too. So the PAF ended the issue by opting for a very large order of F-16s - i.e. go the NATO route of just building a large multi-role core (F-16) with specialist assets (Mirages) around the edges. If that succeeded it would've been similar to what Turkey has today - i.e. lots of F-16s + upgraded F-4s for strike.

 

[ziaulislam]

In the 1980s, several PAF officers were interested in the F-20. But the induction of the F-16 combined with the F-20's developmental issues (i.e. a crash, lack of backing from the US, etc) prevented it from becoming a factor.

By the time the PAF was looking for a plane like the F-20 (i.e. to replace the F-6s), the F-20 was off-the-table. This pushed the PAF to work with Chengdu and Grumman to bring the F-20's key features - i.e. the GE404 engine, AN/APG-63 radar, etc - to an enlarged F-7.

This was the Sabre II, but a mix of relatively high costs and US embargoes on China over Tienanmen Square canned that too. So the PAF ended the issue by opting for a very large order of F-16s - i.e. go the NATO route of just building a large multi-role core (F-16) with specialist assets (Mirages) around the edges. If that succeeded it would've been similar to what Turkey has today - i.e. lots of F-16s + upgraded F-4s for strike.

i think the plan was 100 f-16s+300+ f-7/mirages, i doubt PAF could have ever afforded that many f-16s
essentially the super 7 got replaced with f-7pg and mirage roses first and than thunders

couldnt resists, nice video

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

Dying to see block 3 design

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

i think the plan was 100 f-16s+300+ f-7/mirages, i doubt PAF could have ever afforded that many f-16s
essentially the super 7 got replaced with f-7pg and mirage roses first and than thunders

couldnt resists, nice video

It was 100 F-16A/Bs plus ~90 Mirage III/5s and 120+ F-7Ps. I don't think the total fleet would have crossed 320. But bear in mind that the F-16 was special thanks to the massive scale of USAF orders and the ability to do small-batch orders.

I genuinely believe we could have reached 150+ F-16s by 2010.

What Turkey, Egypt, South Korea etc did by amassing lots of F-16s each time the USAF started inducting a variant, the PAF would have joined them. After PG-III/IV in the 1990s, it might be 12 Block-25s in 1999, then 18 Block-32s in 2002, 32 Block-42s in 2006 and so on.

 

[Tank131]

Hi,

The first models without the DSI were more like the Tigershark.

The spine behind the cockpit is very similar---. At around 9 min mark---the video talks about modular design---also about the short turn around time---about how one tech can do the basic service---about the extremely short spool up time.

It is expected that if there is an SU30 in the hangar at an airstrip in indian Kashmir---and it starts its engine---and a JF17 starts its engine at Kamra---the JF17 would be in the air and on top of the indian airbase by the time the SU30 is ready for take off---which is about 12-15 minutes time for the SU30---and about 1-2 min time for the JF17.

If you look at the cockpit layout of the Tigershark and the JF17---the JF17 has a lots more influence from that aircraft than anything else---.

We also hear that the Grippen is also an off-shoot of the F20 Tigershark---.

It just simple amazes me that how far are the americans ahead of some of the designs than the rest of the world---.

The F-20 was a missed opportunity for PAF. The project was offered wholesale to PAF down to the manufacturing of the radar and the GE-404. It offered Sparrow capabilities and was to later carry AMRAAM but because it had a prototype crash (as they tend to do from time to time) PAF got scared off.

The tigershark was a beautiful aircraft and definitely ahead of its time conceptually. The reason thats true of American aircraft is that Americans have creativity. They think outside the box. Our desire that life should be made easier by technology leads to innovation. Americans also have a strong work ethic as a whole when it comes to putting ideas into reality. We find a way to do it. The same is true of Japanese, which is why you see innovation from these places. Most others are too worried to think outside the norm.

 

[ziaulislam]

The F-20 was a missed opportunity for PAF. The project was offered wholesale to PAF down to the manufacturing of the radar and the GE-404. It offered Sparrow capabilities and was to later carry AMRAAM but because it had a prototype crash (as they tend to do from time to time) PAF got scared off.

The tigershark was a beautiful aircraft and definitely ahead of its time conceptually. The reason thats true of American aircraft is that Americans have creativity. They think outside the box. Our desire that life should be made easier by technology leads to innovation. Americans also have a strong work ethic as a whole when it comes to putting ideas into reality. We find a way to do it. The same is true of Japanese, which is why you see innovation from these places. Most others are too worried to think outside the norm.

it would have been a disastrous (of epic scale) seeing we would have been sanctioned....we are lucky we didnt go that route

 

[GumNaam]

The F-20 was a missed opportunity for PAF. The project was offered wholesale to PAF down to the manufacturing of the radar and the GE-404. It offered Sparrow capabilities and was to later carry AMRAAM but because it had a prototype crash (as they tend to do from time to time) PAF got scared off.

The tigershark was a beautiful aircraft and definitely ahead of its time conceptually. The reason thats true of American aircraft is that Americans have creativity. They think outside the box. Our desire that life should be made easier by technology leads to innovation. Americans also have a strong work ethic as a whole when it comes to putting ideas into reality. We find a way to do it. The same is true of Japanese, which is why you see innovation from these places. Most others are too worried to think outside the norm.

What's also true about the americans is that they attach strings to everything they offer. It was NOT the F20 crash that scared of the PAF, it was the fact that the strings attached to the whole sale F20 technology and manufacturing was the complete, verifiable reversal of Pakistan's nuclear weapons and missiles program along with handing over political control to american cronies in Pakistan so that the nuclear weapons and missile program could never be kick started again. So thanks but no thanks, the F20 tigershark can RIP as far as I'm concerned...

 

[MastanKhan]

What's also true about the americans is that they attach strings to everything they offer. It was NOT the F20 crash that scared of the PAF, it was the fact that the strings attached to the whole sale F20 technology and manufacturing was the complete, verifiable reversal of Pakistan's nuclear weapons and missiles program along with handing over political control to american cronies in Pakistan so that the nuclear weapons and missile program could never be kick started again. So thanks but no thanks, the F20 tigershark can RIP as far as I'm concerned...

Hi,

Okay---if there were strings attached with the F20---then what was the issue with the F1 Mirage---.

 

[GumNaam]

Hi,

Okay---if there were strings attached with the F20---then what was the issue with the F1 Mirage---.

Not familiar with the F1 story so can't say.

 

[Tank131]

it would have been a disastrous (of epic scale) seeing we would have been sanctioned....we are lucky we didnt go that route

Please explain hiw a manufacturing line for the F-20 in Pakistan would have been a disaster. How it would have been wprse to be able to from scratch, make the fighter. PAF would have owned the F-20 much like Turkey owns the T-129 Atak. They bought the mangusta program lock stock and barrel. That would have enabled PAF to keep building despite sanctions. Not be stuck with 40 F-16 for 20 years. It would have caused a much quicker development of the local aerospace program than what had occured.

What's also true about the americans is that they attach strings to everything they offer. It was NOT the F20 crash that scared of the PAF, it was the fact that the strings attached to the whole sale F20 technology and manufacturing was the complete, verifiable reversal of Pakistan's nuclear weapons and missiles program along with handing over political control to american cronies in Pakistan so that the nuclear weapons and missile program could never be kick started again. So thanks but no thanks, the F20 tigershark can RIP as far as I'm concerned...

The terms were the same as those for the sale of the F-16. At the time, Northrop was wanting desperately to have some type of international sale to showcase its ability to replace legacy fighters (including its own F-5) with a cheap 4th gen fighter it had pushed the US govt hard to market the F-20 program to Pakistan. Given the impendi g clash with USSR northrop would have made a marketing splash when the world would see its F-20 downing soviet and. Afghan Su-22s Su-25s and Migs-23s). Instead F-16 got that honor and the rest is history.

As for other short-sighted issues, the Mirage F1 was offered to Pakistan as well in similar fashion to set up a manufacturing (not assembly) line and deliver the remaining large stockpile of Snecma Atar 9k-50. PAF was to be given the rights to do whatever it wanted with the aircraft. While not as good as the M2k or the F-16 which were also on offer, it would have given PAF the ability to make a 3.5 gen fighter all at home. The Mirage still had something over the F-16 which was it could fire the BRV Matra Super 530F and subsequently the 530D which had a range of 40km. Some variants eventually were also equipped with MICA. The alterations made to the SAAF's Atlas Cheetah and the Israeli Kfir show what Pakistan could have eventually done to this machine, with SAAF using 2 Cheetah Ds as test beds for the Russian SMR-95 engine (a development of the RD-33) and IAI fitting a superb AESA radar (ELM 2052) into the modified nose of the Kfir. This combo (modern tubofan and radar) in the F1 and the ability to mass produce the aircraft l would, in my estimate, have made far more of an impact for PAF than the F-16. There wpuld be no struggle to replace old Mirages and F-7P. There may never have even been an F-7PG which was an emergency stop gap, rather theor would have been modernized variants pf the Mirage F1. It would have beem for Pakistan what the stolen Mirage V plans (which became Nesher and Kfir) were for Israel. The basis of a aerospace program which could have included advanced avionics. PAF is now doing what it could have started back in the 80s with F-20 or Mirage F1. Better late than never I suppose.

Kfir block 60 cockpit to give you an idea of what could be accomplished even on such an obsolete airframe.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The sanctions came---because there was no interest from the american industry behind it---.

GD was already paid for the F16's---. If the F20 deal was signed---then the congressman and senator from the state where Northrop Gruman was based at would be fighting for their vested interest because Northrop Gruman would be pushing them hard---.

Pakistani kids and adults blurt out sanctions without having any clue to how they happen and how to fight and stop them---.

 

[ziaulislam]

Please explain hiw a manufacturing line for the F-20 in Pakistan would have been a disaster. How it would have been wprse to be able to from scratch, make the fighter. PAF would have owned the F-20 much like Turkey owns the T-129 Atak. They bought the mangusta program lock stock and barrel. That would have enabled PAF to keep building despite sanctions. Not be stuck with 40 F-16 for 20 years. It would have caused a much quicker development of the local aerospace program than what had occured.



The terms were the same as those for the sale of the F-16. At the time, Northrop was wanting desperately to have some type of international sale to showcase its ability to replace legacy fighters (including its own F-5) with a cheap 4th gen fighter it had pushed the US govt hard to market the F-20 program to Pakistan. Given the impendi g clash with USSR northrop would have made a marketing splash when the world would see its F-20 downing soviet and. Afghan Su-22s Su-25s and Migs-23s). Instead F-16 got that honor and the rest is history.

As for other short-sighted issues, the Mirage F1 was offered to Pakistan as well in similar fashion to set up a manufacturing (not assembly) line and deliver the remaining large stockpile of Snecma Atar 9k-50. PAF was to be given the rights to do whatever it wanted with the aircraft. While not as good as the M2k or the F-16 which were also on offer, it would have given PAF the ability to make a 3.5 gen fighter all at home. The Mirage still had something over the F-16 which was it could fire the BRV Matra Super 530F and subsequently the 530D which had a range of 40km. Some variants eventually were also equipped with MICA. The alterations made to the SAAF's Atlas Cheetah and the Israeli Kfir show what Pakistan could have eventually done to this machine, with SAAF using 2 Cheetah Ds as test beds for the Russian SMR-95 engine (a development of the RD-33) and IAI fitting a superb AESA radar (ELM 2052) into the modified nose of the Kfir. This combo (modern tubofan and radar) in the F1 and the ability to mass produce the aircraft l would, in my estimate, have made far more of an impact for PAF than the F-16. There wpuld be no struggle to replace old Mirages and F-7P. There may never have even been an F-7PG which was an emergency stop gap, rather theor would have been modernized variants pf the Mirage F1. It would have beem for Pakistan what the stolen Mirage V plans (which became Nesher and Kfir) were for Israel. The basis of a aerospace program which could have included advanced avionics. PAF is now doing what it could have started back in the 80s with F-20 or Mirage F1. Better late than never I suppose.

Kfir block 60 cockpit to give you an idea of what could be accomplished even on such an obsolete airframe.

going by history of french deals, i doubt they would have offered f1 manufacturing or tot
and how knows what would have happened in 1990s sanctioned, they did breifly sanctioned us in 1990s

Hi,

The sanctions came---because there was no interest from the american industry behind it---.

GD was already paid for the F16's---. If the F20 deal was signed---then the congressman and senator from the state where Northrop Gruman was based at would be fighting for their vested interest because Northrop Gruman would be pushing them hard---.

Pakistani kids and adults blurt out sanctions without having any clue to how they happen and how to fight and stop them---.

sanctions came because there was huge concern for nuclear proliferation in unipolar world
i doubt a senator or two or even many would have been able to continue a few billion dollars f20 deal
f-16 was much larger potential deal and it was scrapped!!

 

[PDF]

 

[MastanKhan]

going by history of french deals, i doubt they would have offered f1 manufacturing or tot
and how knows what would have happened in 1990s sanctioned, they did breifly sanctioned us in 1990s


sanctions came because there was huge concern for nuclear proliferation in unipolar world
i doubt a senator or two or even many would have been able to continue a few billion dollars f20 deal
f-16 was much larger potential deal and it was scrapped!!

Hi,

sanctions came because you did not have any options available---.

If had a secondary aircraft in service---the sanction would have been worthless---.

You make this practise for self preservation for your family and near ones---why is it that when it comes to the nation---you people start " strange talk ".