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JF-17B Updates, News & Discussion

the JF-17 development program has been a great success for a new comer in the exclusive club of Aviation industry together with the partnership of China whose own aviation achievements are modest (yes).

does a strike fighter specially electronic warfare and SAM / radar suppression role needs a 2 seater as a must have? the Hornets Grawler is 2 seater and I understand its not for training but for combat role.

Hi,

Modern day 4th gen fighter aircraft with the package you described do need the twin seater---. It is an extremely intense game being played out there ansd the pilot does not have the ability to indulge in engineering and managing electronic suppression or interference of enemy assets.

The F22 / F35 should not be even brought into discussion because those aircraft are functionally designed for a different purpose and utility---.
 
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Agreed, if PAC wants, they can surely go a "Gripen Route". However, the devil is in the details here.

Using Spanish EW in a basic EW suite is fine but when you move to current high end EW tech, it requires very close integration. The Chinese won't allow that kind of integration with their systems, as it would allow Western companies to get details.

For instance, it is perfectly technically possible to integrate AMRAAMs on the JF-17. All you need is a handshake between the Chinese radar, JF-17 electronics and the AMRAAM. However, this cannot be done.

Now imagine your RWR, other sensors, EW on pods, radar, all seemlessly needing to talk to each other instantaneously. Yes, if a system from Spain allows itself to be given with full access to the source codes, it is possible to integrate it. However, when you go into higher end systems, like those on the Gripen, the Europeans would:
1. Not sell
2. Sell without full access to the software

This means that seamless integration is difficult at best. Meaning that instantaneous and unified working of the electronics is now not possible.

Again, the Indians made this mistake. Israeli equipment was not able to effectively integrate with Russian equipment. Not because the Indian engineers were incompetent, but because the Israelis and Russians didn't want to give each other access and insight into their systems. Had the Indians not been short sighted, they would have never gone through to begin with.

And that was for tech 2 decades ago. Last generation EW. The problem becomes 10x with the current generation of EW. Let me explain this further. In the very latest technology, your radar itself becomes almost a subsystem of the wider EW system. They need to seemlessly work with your EW pods, RWR, DRFM, processing, etc at the fastest, most instantaneous way possible. If it can't do it near instantaneously, the whole thing collapses in terms of its effectiveness.

Gone are the days of brute Russian jamming. Yes, that still works, but the art is far more refined to be as efficient as possible, so that small aircraft like the Gripen can have a meaningful EW capability.

The American F/A-18 Growler combines both brute power with ultra refinement. This is what makes it such a major asset. Meanwhile, the F-35 does ultra refinement. It is claimed that DEW is now in its capability - but this may be urban legend.

What does that mean? What is DEW? DEW is the ability of an EW suite to do permanent damage on an enemy system. A radar, for instance, is a powerful microwave. If you walk in front of a radar, you are basically getting an x ray and if you have chocolates with you, they will melt. A very powerful microwave directed, pinpointed at a point, could cause permanent damage even to the enemy system. "Fry the electronics".

Now imagine a generation even beyond that - something perhaps we may see in the near future. A laser and the radar pointing their energy at an enemy aircraft's radar, RWR, and perhaps frying those electronics. That is the future.

To complement this brute power, you have a very effective DRFM and processing that allows you to instantly jam and algorithms that allow you to anticipate what the enemy EW will do. So you can now put your whole jamming capability into the small band that the enemy radar is about to radiate.
First news about JF-17 Block 3 configuration was made official in 2015.

Are you suggesting PAF, PAC and their engineers and the leadership were unable to finalize its configuration even after 5 years?

Then you are mistaken.

After closely following PAF strategy, it is quite evident that PAF never put all eggs in one single basket.

Mirage III and Mirage V Rose upgradation is one of the genius inception of this strategy.

Most of our respected PDF members underestimate old Mirages and consider them as vintage.

First of all, we must realize that Mirages after overhaul are as good as new as their critical airframe parts and aircraft electrical wiring are being replaced. Same is the case with the Atar engines.

Let me assure, that these Mirages after Rose mod are more lethal and more effective than one can imagine, when used in complete package. Each aircraft has a specific role in the package to complete the assigned mission.

JF-17 being being smaller aircraft, the costly upgradation will be in similar pattern.

The east and west fusion will be found in complete package not in one individual aircraft.

In the modern day air warfare, it is not necessary that a single platform be loaded with all high end EW/ECM avionic package.

This strategy not only reduce the overall cost of the platform, but also reduce cost of iteration during war.

In fact this type of fusion is deadly, precise and efficient to achieve the assigned missions.
 
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First news about JF-17 Block 3 configuration was made official in 2015.

Are you suggesting PAF, PAC and their engineers and the leadership were unable to finalize its configuration even after 5 years?


Then you are mistaken.

After closely following PAF strategy, it is quite evident that PAF never put all eggs in one single basket.

Mirage III and Mirage V Rose upgradation is one of the genius inception of this strategy.

Most of our respected PDF members underestimate old Mirages and consider them as vintage.

First of all, we must realize that Mirages after overhaul are as good as new as their critical airframe parts and aircraft electrical wiring are being replaced. Same is the case with the Atar engines.

Let me assure, that these Mirages after Rose mod are more lethal and more effective than one can imagine, when used in complete package. Each aircraft has a specific role in the package to complete the assigned mission.

JF-17 being being smaller aircraft, the costly upgradation will be in similar pattern.

The east and west fusion will be found in complete package not in one individual aircraft.

In the modern day air warfare, it is not necessary that a single platform be loaded with all high end EW/ECM avionic package.

This strategy not only reduce the overall cost of the platform, but also reduce cost of iteration during war.

In fact this type of fusion is deadly, precise and efficient to achieve the assigned missions.

Hi,

It does not work that way and your assessment is incorrect---. Right now the agency is sitting at the cusp of finalizing a couple of key technology features.

The wait is worth the utility---.
 
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First news about JF-17 Block 3 configuration was made official in 2015.

Are you suggesting PAF, PAC and their engineers and the leadership were unable to finalize its configuration even after 5 years?

Then you are mistaken.

After closely following PAF strategy, it is quite evident that PAF never put all eggs in one single basket.

Mirage III and Mirage V Rose upgradation is one of the genius inception of this strategy.

Most of our respected PDF members underestimate old Mirages and consider them as vintage.

First of all, we must realize that Mirages after overhaul are as good as new as their critical airframe parts and aircraft electrical wiring are being replaced. Same is the case with the Atar engines.

Let me assure, that these Mirages after Rose mod are more lethal and more effective than one can imagine, when used in complete package. Each aircraft has a specific role in the package to complete the assigned mission.

JF-17 being being smaller aircraft, the costly upgradation will be in similar pattern.

The east and west fusion will be found in complete package not in one individual aircraft.

In the modern day air warfare, it is not necessary that a single platform be loaded with all high end EW/ECM avionic package.

This strategy not only reduce the overall cost of the platform, but also reduce cost of iteration during war.

In fact this type of fusion is deadly, precise and efficient to achieve the assigned missions.
Friend

I disagree with your assessment about the ROse/M3/5. Yes the upgrades were effective to a certain point but the airframe overall remain unchanged or even engine. Cheetah option was there but never followed thru - a sloppier route was taken. Penny wise pound foolish. Right now we are back to square one. There was a huge opportunity to bring over entire Cheetah line over here and continue on; who knows it would have landed other M3/5 clients to undergo the same conversion.
 
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Comparing specifications of Cheetah with Mirage V, Mirage V has greater ferry and combat range, higher service ceiling and can carry same weight of payload ie 4000 kg.

If PAF wanted to have Cheetah option, they would have opted for it.

MRF and PAC have the capability to manufacture complete airframe structure of Mirage aircraft.

However, manufacturing a new airframe structure along with other parts such as landing gears is very costly as compared to extensive overhauling of older airframes. During the overhaul complete bulkhead of Mirage is being inspected for any anomaly, all damaged bulkheads parts and critical load bearing members are being replaced with new ones, complete aircraft rewiring is being done and its engine, other parts and equipment are being overhauled. In short Mirages coming out of MRF have their service life extended.

In my opinion investing on Cheetah option would have been wastage of scarce financial resources. PAF opting to buy phase out Mirage fleets from various Air Forces is a cheaper solution as it serves the purpose to build enough fleet after extensive overhaul, upgradations and modifications.
Sorry you are completely wrong in every point you raised.
Hi,

Modern day 4th gen fighter aircraft with the package you described do need the twin seater---. It is an extremely intense game being played out there ansd the pilot does not have the ability to indulge in engineering and managing electronic suppression or interference of enemy assets.

The F22 / F35 should not be even brought into discussion because those aircraft are functionally designed for a different purpose and utility---.
This is where new form of flight awareness and technology enabled systems come into play to support the pilot and co-pilot.
 
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In terms of range, payload & other features how does B's fare against regular block-2?
 
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