JF-17B - EW 'Growler'

[FuturePAF]

PAF Should look to develop Scaled up JF-17 models using WS-10/WS-15 Class engines for a JF-17EW Growler Model. The Added Power will be necessary to increase jamming range for all those pods. No sense in being limited when you can get a nearly Doubling in Power For only a slightly longer engine.

Or the PAF could work with the Chinese to Develop a J-10 Variant As a Growler. No need for all new flight testing on an enlarged JF-17. The PLAAF would also get a Growler they can fit into their fighter squadrons as well.

The added benefit would be the PAF would get the J-10, and as the older used F-16s retire we can build up the knowledge of operating the J-10. If in the Future we need to buy, Lease or borrow J-10s as Fighters from China, we will be ready.

Per Wikipedia, the PAF has 20 Fighter Squadrans. If the PAF Acquires 40 J-10D/EW Growler Models, they can be distributed two per Squadran as an added layer of protection. Form theses 40 planes into 3 Squadrans and train them like Fighter Squadrans, but then train them in dedicated Electronic Warfare with all of our allies; especially in countering the S-300 and S-400. The Planes are ready now, The KLJ-7A with the two side panels can be Scaled up 50% and all the pods can be added on as they become available. In the mean time we get 40 J-10s and start training up our future Electronic Warfare officers.

Also the Planes, EW Equipement, and Pilots/EW Officers could be ready by 2022; the expected operational time frame for the Indian S-400s.

China, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia can be good Partner in each of their own ways when helping to build up an effective EW Fleet. China will be best at developing tactics to defeat the S-400 as well as learn how best to use its S-400 for its own defenses, and can share the knowledge with the PAF. Turkey makes EW Equipment and can train PAF on how to counter systems the TuAF operates with and against. (Some EW JF-17 should be made with an all Turkish EW Suite for dissimilar training) Finally the Saudis operate a modern Air Force with the best equipment and operate Advanced Western Sam Systems. training with the PAF will help them use their systems better and help the PAF counter non-Russian SAM Systems better. The Saudis could also learn how to make their Pilots that much better when operating in a complex EW Environment such as the Middle East is becoming. These are capabilities they may not be allowed to acquire otherwise by some of their other friends.

 

[rcrmj]

Come to KAMRA and see what they've been doing with this plane for the last five years. The aircraft in picture is clearly equipped with two pods, a hint that a Wild Wiesel or even aggressive jamming configuration was being tested. In other words, it is not appropriate to speak on things without knowledge. Unless you know for sure that there will be EW configuration in jf-17, it is too early to go into the naivety mode.

I have had seen a few things hence my claim that a lot is going on at KAMRA.

listen, there is no EW version JF-17 under development, and the current JF-17 is more than capable to carry EW pods as JF-17's mission and weapon software was designed with open interface, its mission capability is more than you know````and again, an EW fighter is way way way too different than a plane that can carry few EW pods````````remember this,`````

btw, CAC is currently working on Block III with an arse kicking AESA radar (not the air cool cheap version)`````Pakistan's defense capability is no trivil to us, but very strategic, we wont consider much profit over the stuff that we sold to you. as long as it is within the reasonable cost, we would give you the best we could````so as the JF-31 project, once you have the enough fund, it is very LIKELY to see PAF flying 5th gen fighter much earlier than IAF``````````

i wont bet on things that is half cooked```

 

[wulff]

listen, there is no EW version JF-17 under development, and the current JF-17 is more than capable to carry EW pods as JF-17's mission and weapon software was designed with open interface, its mission capability is more than you know````and again, an EW fighter is way way way too different than a plane that can carry few EW pods````````remember this,`````

btw, CAC is currently working on Block III with an arse kicking AESA radar (not the air cool cheap version)`````Pakistan's defense capability is no trivil to us, but very strategic, we wont consider much profit over the stuff that we sold to you. as long as it is within the reasonable cost, we would give you the best we could````so as the JF-31 project, once you have the enough fund, it is very LIKELY to see PAF flying 5th gen fighter much earlier than IAF``````````

i wont bet on things that is half cooked```

It appears to me, as the comments by Messiach indicate, that the Block 3 twin seater is being developed with a SEAD/DEAD capability in mind. This is something the PAF badly needs, since the US withheld Wild Weasel gear from the PAF's F-16s.

It would help to put your point across if you said that a SEAD aircraft is not the same as a Growler/J-16D type dedicated jamming aircraft. The JF-17 is completely unsuitable for a dedicated jammer role because it doesn't have the electrical power output of a twin engine plane, doesn't have the internal space for all the electronics needed, and doesn't have the endurance that such an aircraft will require in the air. However, all this doesn't preclude it from acquiring SEAD capability.

If they really are looking in this direction, it indicates that the PAF has started taking EW and SAM suppression seriously after all. Maybe wishes do grow on trees and maybe, just maybe, I will see my wish of the Block 3 carrying towed and expendable decoys fulfilled

 

[Dazzler]

listen, there is no EW version JF-17 under development, and the current JF-17 is more than capable to carry EW pods as JF-17's mission and weapon software was designed with open interface, its mission capability is more than you know````and again, an EW fighter is way way way too different than a plane that can carry few EW pods````````remember this,`````

btw, CAC is currently working on Block III with an arse kicking AESA radar (not the air cool cheap version)`````Pakistan's defense capability is no trivil to us, but very strategic, we wont consider much profit over the stuff that we sold to you. as long as it is within the reasonable cost, we would give you the best we could````so as the JF-31 project, once you have the enough fund, it is very LIKELY to see PAF flying 5th gen fighter much earlier than IAF``````````

i wont bet on things that is half cooked```

Its a waste of time to argue clueless fanboys like you. Instead of understanding the fact, they would instead pretend to know more than the parties making, using and equipping the damn thing.

Chinese ew offered could barely match the performance of ALQ131 ecm pod which was the reason why we had look for other options. Same was the case with targeting pod and several other systems. Even now despite all the hype PAF had alternate arrangements in place.

Hype all you like about your technology.

 

[Ultima Thule]

PAF Should look to develop Scaled up JF-17 models using WS-10/WS-15 Class engines for a JF-17EW Growler Model.

No, WS-10/WS-15 class engine will over dose to JF-17 capability, and whole rear design want to be redesign, best bet For JF-17E GROWLER version if it will be made to install WS-13E or Upcoming WS-19 same class as F-404, F-414 from general electric respectively @FuturePAF

 

[FuturePAF]

No, WS-10/WS-15 class engine will over dose to JF-17 capability, and whole rear design want to be redesign, best bet For JF-17E GROWLER version if it will be made to install WS-13E or Upcoming WS-19 same class as F-404, F-414 from general electric respectively @FuturePAF

Agreed it would be overkill in its current size, therefore the plane would have to be sized up to accommodate. But that would still require alot of re-certification of the design and may take alot of money to do and many years to do it.

That is why I suggested get the J-10 as the Growler Platform. It has the range, it has the maneuverability to protect itself, It has the Engine power to power the 3 Jamming pods; three sided AESA radar, and two wing tip DFRM detection pods as in the EF-18 Growler.

With current Pakistan-US relations at a low, and F-16 availability for the future uncertain, laying the ground work to get the J-10 to replace the F-16 at least for the High end Electronic Warfare requirement should be considered.

But if the PAF can't afford to go down the path of getting the J-10, then yes go for a WS-19 Equipped JF-17 as the Growler platform.

 

[LeGenD]

The S-400 is meant for operation in highly challenging EM environments. Also, can you tell me what's the offensive range for the systems you mentioned?

I will try to dig some information when I have time, but I do not promise anything concrete, because much about this aircraft is not for public consumption (classified).

I am aware of the fact that S-400 can perform in challenging EW environments - it feature a cluster of powerful radar systems which are really difficult to jam (I have highlighted this fact in another discussion), but the calculus dramatically shifts when it comes to US being the adversary - a large number of casual readers tend to assume that other countries are at par with US in the context of defenses, but reality is much different and concealed within layers of disinformation all over the web.

EA-18G Growler is arguably the most capable dedicated EW platform in its class, but US have a range of powerful EW solutions in its hands.

Some information in this link:
Rare admission from well-placed Russian sources in public:

"Koral is a ground-based EW system, and in order to effectively counter surface-to-air missiles, especially the kind of missiles that the S-400 uses – missiles that are specifically designed to withstand enemy electronic countermeasures – you need air-based EW systems," Mikheev told media. "You need the analogues of our Rychag or Khibiny systems, and Turkey has nothing of that kind. Obviously, the US has such systems, but it doesn’t export that kind of equipment even to its NATO allies."

Source: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201512021031139763-turkey-russia-electronic-warfare/

They are confident that Turkish solutions are useless, but American....

Contrary to fanboys all over the place, Russian officials have a great grasp of global military proficiency levels [meaningful INTEL], and they recognize asymmetry between Russia and US in conventional defenses [behind-the-scenes; classified reports], but Russia have a significant arms industry of its own (profitable enterprise), therefore, Russian officials have no choice but to commit to the state-sponsored propaganda to ensure sales. This isn't to say that Russian arms are bad (they are very good on average), but if you are wargaming US as a potential adversary - buy (and try) at your on risk.

It is safe to assume that Russian S-400 systems can perform in challenging EW environments [Russian TIER] which is beyond most countries anyways; sufficient hint for the wise.

Pakistani measures are like - something better than nothing. EW is extremely expensive and technical route, IMHO.

 

[CriticalThought]

I will try to dig some information when I have time, but I do not promise anything concrete, because much about this aircraft is not for public consumption (classified).

I am aware of the fact that S-400 can perform in challenging EW environments - it feature a cluster of powerful radar systems which are really difficult to jam (I have highlighted this fact in another discussion), but the calculus dramatically shifts when it comes to US being the adversary - a large number of casual readers tend to assume that other countries are at par with US in the context of defenses, but reality is much different and concealed within layers of disinformation all over the web.

EA-18G Growler is arguably the most capable dedicated EW platform in its class, but US have a range of powerful EW solutions in its hands. Some information in this link:
Rare admission from well-placed Russian sources in public:

"Koral is a ground-based EW system, and in order to effectively counter surface-to-air missiles, especially the kind of missiles that the S-400 uses – missiles that are specifically designed to withstand enemy electronic countermeasures – you need air-based EW systems," Mikheev told media. "You need the analogues of our Rychag or Khibiny systems, and Turkey has nothing of that kind. Obviously, the US has such systems, but it doesn’t export that kind of equipment even to its NATO allies."

Source: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201512021031139763-turkey-russia-electronic-warfare/

They are confident that Turkish solutions are useless, but American....

Contrary to fanboys all over the place, Russian officials have a great grasp of global military proficiency levels [meaningful INTEL], and they recognize asymmetry between Russia and US in conventional defenses [behind-the-scenes; classified reports], but Russia have a significant arms industry of its own (profitable enterprise), therefore, Russian officials have no choice but to commit to the state-sponsored propaganda to ensure sales. This isn't to say that Russian arms are bad (they are very good on average), but if you are wargaming US as a potential adversary - buy (and try) at your on risk.

It is safe to assume that Russian S-400 systems can perform in challenging EW environments [Russian TIER] which is beyond most countries anyways; sufficient hint for the wise.

Pakistani measures are like - something better than nothing. EW is extremely expensive and technical route, IMHO.

At its core, EW employs one or more of:

1. Cancel the EM waves.
2. Attenuate the EM waves.
3. Attack the transmitter.
4. Nullify the receiver.
5. Overload the circuitry.
6. Dupe the software algorithms.

Six especially is greatly facilitated if:

1. You are the ones who sold the underlying computing hardware.
2. You have intelligence into the software algorithms.

And that's it. What I dislike is creating this mythical hype of unknown technological advancement that is beyond the reach and understanding of others. This is not the case. If you understand the fundamental physics behind it, you understand how to take it out. So it's not a matter of understandability, it is more a matter of implementation. Our fab tech backbone is non-existent. So forget about an inhouse computing chip. That also stops us from creating custom GaN transmitter/receivers. Otherwise, on a theoretical level, we can understand the techniques.

 

[帅的一匹]

listen, there is no EW version JF-17 under development, and the current JF-17 is more than capable to carry EW pods as JF-17's mission and weapon software was designed with open interface, its mission capability is more than you know````and again, an EW fighter is way way way too different than a plane that can carry few EW pods````````remember this,`````

btw, CAC is currently working on Block III with an arse kicking AESA radar (not the air cool cheap version)`````Pakistan's defense capability is no trivil to us, but very strategic, we wont consider much profit over the stuff that we sold to you. as long as it is within the reasonable cost, we would give you the best we could````so as the JF-31 project, once you have the enough fund, it is very LIKELY to see PAF flying 5th gen fighter much earlier than IAF``````````

i wont bet on things that is half cooked```

what kind of radar you mentioned that will be fit on blk III?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

brings back memories before I was PTI supporter

 

[Windjammer]

Ahem.....Ahem....!!!!!

@Oscar @Dazzler

 

[JohnWick]

Ahem.....Ahem....!!!!!

@Oscar @Dazzler

Beau-ti-ful..........

brings back memories before I was PTI supporter

That meme belongs to me actually Sir

 

[帅的一匹]

what kind of radar you mentioned that will be fit on blk III?

why give me a negative rating?

 

[CriticalThought]

why give me a negative rating?

@The Eagle can help you

 

[JohnWick]

why give me a negative rating?

@Slav Defence Can help you.