JF-17 VS MIRAGE-2000

[Beta-Fighter]

- If this is the level of "crash reports" these days, I'd rather not see another one
- and crash report not being public means ..... the JFT hasn't had any refinement that a jet goes through if a fault is found -- ???

Not total crash report you Dumb .............................. The reason of crash and then what is taken for rectified , other chia China and PAK every other country AF do that. We know why you both people hide , the so called missile successful despite it blown in mid way.

- BTW, whose "EVERY ONE" -- who supposedly already knows what you claim ...
-Lastly when your orignial point is this ...

every other person in the world then you.

-

while defending your LCA, your like its safe -- hasn't crashed -- but when one mentions well, the entire IAF from Mig-21 to SU-30 mki , you start going -- oooh no you see there was a report and blablabla ..

Secondly, the JFT crash was in Attock, the anti terrorist Op is happening in N.Waziristan --- so atleast do check your BS before posting it on here -- because your the same person asking for proofs -- and posting without any whatsoever --

You mean to say plane cant fly from another place for attack. lol Planes from France flown to Libya fro ground attack . operation happening doesn't mean plane has to crash in N-Waziristan and it cant go any ware or cant crash in in route. Wearied logics you have.

-
and just in case you dont know, for an aircraft you allege hasn't been tested enough, hasn't matured -- isn't this this and this -- it has already won an export order -- so you can continue with your tirade of "what I wish" lists -- doesn't make em true .. as far as the integration goes, the process can go on while the jet has been inducted in the AF, there are numerous examples of jets being integrated with a huge array of weapons after being inducted in airforces around the world --

tell us what make JFT crash , we know wold wide AF tell in details what happened and why Plane get crash , other chines and PAK no one else hide it.


[

 

[airmarshal]

How does comparing numbers make one aircraft superior to others? Indian members might not understand this or they just want live in their arrogant oblivion.

Remember MiG-15? It shot down F-4 Phantoms. Phantoms were cutting edge technology while MiG-15 was post WW2 jet.

Remember your IAF MiG-21 in 1971 war? It was shot down by almost obsolete F-86 Sabre of PAF.

Point is no machine is superior than the pilot flying it or tactics applied. As JF-17 is more suited in a point defence role when it comes air combat, planes flying in its domain will have a tough time encountering it.

Give or take advantages mature platforms like MiG-29 or Mirage might have, JF-17 isnt a walkover. JF-17 is a program designed by pilots and engineers to fly and maintain aircraft. Indian knack of criticizing everything in their condescending manner does not take away the skill and experience of people who designed this aircraft.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Not total crash report you Dumb .............................. The reason of crash and then what is taken for rectified , other chia China and PAK every other country AF do that. We know why you both people hide , the so called missile successful despite it blown in mid way.

every other person in the world then you.




You mean to say plane cant fly from another place for attack. lol Planes from France flown to Libya fro ground attack . operation happening doesn't mean plane has to crash in N-Waziristan and it cant go any ware or cant crash in in route. Wearied logics you have.


tell us what make JFT crash , we know wold wide AF tell in details what happened and why Plane get crash , other chines and PAK no one else hide it.

Reduced to name calling are we now --- I mean it's understandable seeing your the one talking "logic" behind your reasoning of ..

Ahh yes "Everyone knows" -- "cuz thats my point -- and it has to be right because its my point -- "

For your info, PAF usually doesn't release crash reports, which by the way is the case with most of the fighters in PAF fleet (not just JFT), way after crash if someone goes on and gives the reasoning thats another matter however the investigation is carried out, changes if needed are made to procedures or the jets themselves and its all good ---

However, I fail to understand -- when no PAF official ever said something regarding why the JFT was in the air in the first place (on official dissemination channels of info atleast, and there was no mention of it being on a bombing mission) how do you know that it was on a bombing run -- and yet your the same person complaining about how the crash report hasn't been made public and that we dont know enough ...

Then again "everyone knows" --- how about you make up your mind -- either you know or you dont --- which is it ??

 

[Beta-Fighter]

How does comparing numbers make one aircraft superior to others? Indian members might not understand this or they just want live in their arrogant oblivion.

Remember MiG-15? It shot down F-4 Phantoms. Phantoms were cutting edge technology while MiG-15 was post WW2 jet.

Remember your IAF MiG-21 in 1971 war? It was shot down by almost obsolete F-86 Sabre of PAF.

Point is no machine is superior than the pilot flying it or tactics applied. As JF-17 is more suited in a point defence role when it comes air combat, planes flying in its domain will have a tough time encountering it.

Give or take advantages mature platforms like MiG-29 or Mirage might have, JF-17 isnt a walkover. JF-17 is a program designed by pilots and engineers to fly and maintain aircraft. Indian knack of criticizing everything in their condescending manner does not take away the skill and experience of people who designed this aircraft.

Now how will see when PAF plane which can fire A2A missiles was shot down plane which can only fire bullets and Gen old ?

This is what you people need to understand , inducted a plane and build in numbers doesn't make plane superior or inferior or increase its capability, You JFT cannot do LBG's which Tejas do even before induction. Its all what you want from plane , India building true Multi platform plane and which it hand over it will be require not more testing etc. ready to fly in combat.

Reduced to name calling are we now --- I mean it's understandable seeing your the one talking "logic" behind your reasoning of ..

Ahh yes "Everyone knows" -- "cuz thats my point -- and it has to be right because its my point -- "

For your info, PAF usually doesn't release crash reports, which by the way is the case with most of the fighters in PAF fleet (not just JFT), the investigation is carried out, changes if needed are made to procedures or the jets themselves and its all good ---

However, I fail to understand -- when no PAF official ever said something regarding why the JFT was in the air in the first place (on official dissemination channels of info atleast, and there was no mention of it being on a bombing mission) how do you know that it was on a bombing run -- and yet your the same person complaining about how the crash report hasn't been made public and that we dont know enough ...

Then again "everyone knows" --- how about you make up your mind -- either you know or you dont --- which is it ??

You don't know , it might be or not, as PAF like PA always tried to hide failures , Didn't your PA in a statement said your missile successful despite being blown on mid way? Why PAF like Chinese don't discuses in public, reason is simple , they will tell the truth which hurt their so called false information it has created to its public.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Now how will see when PAF plane which can fire A2A missiles was shot down plane which can only fire bullets and Gen old ?

This is what you people need to understand , inducted a plane and build in numbers doesn't make plane superior or inferior or increase its capability, You JFT cannot do LBG's which Tejas do even before induction. Its all what you want from plane , India building true Multi platform plane and which it hand over it will be require not more testing etc. ready to fly in combat.

You don't know , it might be or not, as PAF like PA always tried to hide failures , Didn't your PA in a statement said your missile successful despite being blown on mid way? Why PAF like Chinese don't discuses in public, reason is simple , they will tell the truth which hurt their so called false information it has created to its public.

Ohh great -- so we should start boasting about things that haven't materialized like maybe the LCA for the past decade -- or I know the 126 MMRCA which from 126 is now 36 MMRCA -- It is our choice what we want to do or not -- you only get to find out when you engage us in a conflict --

last I remember, the past 2 times you tried -- your AF and army tucked its tail between its legs and ran the other way after your politicians made the boasting claims of "we'll do this and that" -- seems like a pattern doesn't it --

you guys love to brag about things you dont even have, and somehow Pakistan & China not bragging all the way like the Indian counterparts "will hurt their false information"

Remember the reaction of your Indian friends when all of you were like "there is no way that China can undertake a 5th gen project" -- and then China came out with not one but two 5th gen projects -- or the reaction where JFT won an export order ... ahh yes cuz potential customers will not completely evaluate and go through a jet before picking it -- we must rely only on your "everyone" source -- right ??

 

[Beta-Fighter]

Reduced to name calling are we now --- I mean it's understandable seeing your the one talking "logic" behind your reasoning of ..

Ahh yes "Everyone knows" -- "cuz thats my point -- and it has to be right because its my point -- "

For your info, PAF usually doesn't release crash reports, which by the way is the case with most of the fighters in PAF fleet (not just JFT), way after crash if someone goes on and gives the reasoning thats another matter however the investigation is carried out, changes if needed are made to procedures or the jets themselves and its all good ---

However, I fail to understand -- when no PAF official ever said something regarding why the JFT was in the air in the first place (on official dissemination channels of info atleast, and there was no mention of it being on a bombing mission) how do you know that it was on a bombing run -- and yet your the same person complaining about how the crash report hasn't been made public and that we dont know enough ...

Then again "everyone knows" --- how about you make up your mind -- either you know or you dont --- which is it ??

Well ... Didn't your Army Declared officially a failed missile test which blown up in middle a Successful missile test ?

What you expecting from PAF, do they tell you people why it get crashed and what system failed in the plane? their is something called circumstantial evidences.

Seriously ?



Shot down ?? -- over attock -- a peacful city which hasn't even has the remotest link to ground or air activities in the op. Zarb-e-azab -- so now you'll say -- "every one knows it was shot" --

Man ..you have the problem........... first read the question and answer , you should read again whom I have replied , instead of jumping here and their. You are looking like stupid ..... here we and I talking about 65/71 war plane with A2A and with GUN air war...... Get / read with your open eyes.

now before you write anything you better read post

Ohh great -- so we should start boasting about things that haven't materialized like maybe the LCA for the past decade -- or I know the 126 MMRCA which from 126 is now 36 MMRCA -- It is our choice what we want to do or not -- you only get to find out when you engage us in a conflict --

last I remember, the past 2 times you tried -- your AF and army tucked its tail between its legs and ran the other way after your politicians made the boasting claims of "we'll do this and that" -- seems like a pattern doesn't it --

you guys love to brag about things you dont even have, and somehow Pakistan & China not bragging all the way like the Indian counterparts "will hurt their false information"

Remember the reaction of your Indian friends when all of you were like "there is no way that China can undertake a 5th gen project" -- and then China came out with not one but two 5th gen projects -- or the reaction where JFT won an export order ... ahh yes cuz potential customers will not completely evaluate and go through a jet before picking it -- we must rely only on your "everyone" source -- right ??

Yes we know , its the satellite country called Myanmar

 

[abdulbarijan]

Well ... Didn't your Army Declared officially a failed missile test which blown up in middle a Successful missile test ?

What you expecting from PAF, do they tell you people why it get crashed and what system failed in the plane? their is something called circumstantial evidences.



Man ..you have the problem........... first read the question and answer , you should read again whom I have replied , instead of jumping here and their. You are looking like stupid ..... here we and I talking about 65/71 war plane with A2A and with GUN air war...... Get / read with your open eyes.

now before you write anything you better read post





Yes we know , its the satellite country called Myanmar

Oh yeah -- you were talking about 65/71 -- doesn't make any damn sense your response but whatever -- my honest mistake -- so my bad and ive edited my criticism over that -- but -- try comprehending the below paragraph/sentence whatever, which follows your posting pattern -- its nothing like the original you but I can atleast try to portray what I have to put up with --

" I talk about LCA, best aircraft -- SU-30 MKi beat Pakistan -- it also have 4 gen + 0.5 gen hence 4.5 gen making better for IAF, grim for PAF --having problem M2k beat JFT -- crash mean fail aircraft"

-Coming back to your post -- what circumstantial evidence --- ?? -- Do you have definitive proof that it was on a bombing mission or not -- If you do state it, if not then drop it -- simple as that ...

-What does PAF not disclosing the crash report or even reasoning on a formal level prove -- just in case you dont know missiles and jets are 2 different things -- their objectives, use etc.
So while your entire criticism maybe aimed at "look you guys lie" and hence I can believe such and such about the aircraft -- that is a hollow argument ..

because a customer who is making a multi million dollar purchase, will investigate and go through every part of what is fishy in a project just to be sure, as it is purchasing the result of a new project and is taking quite a risk with its money -- Myanmar could have gone for more Mig-29's ... but JFT was chosen --

- Thirdly for someone, who loves to talk all business tell me, if one from the targeted segment is purchasing the aircraft -- is that reflective of failure or success ?? --

-Lastly, Id rather take a good advice when Im given one -- see the burden of proof lies with you -- you are the person making all the claims with no authoritative source backing up your claims and we're supposed to reply on the assumption that all of your criticisms are correct--

hence my last word for you is --- come up with proofs backing up your claims instead of simply going -- ohh -- I think its like this -- and because I think it --it must be correct --

 

[MastanKhan]

Oh yeah -- you were talking about 65/71 -- doesn't make any damn sense your response but whatever -- my honest mistake -- so my bad and ive edited my criticism over that -- but -- try comprehending the below paragraph which follows your posting pattern -- its nothing like the original you but I can atleast try to portray what I have to put up with --

" I talk about LCA, best aircraft -- SU-30 MKi beat Pakistan -- it also have 4 gen + 0.5 gen hence 4.5 gen making better for IAF, grim for PAF --having problem M2k beat JFT -- crash mean fail aircraft"

-Coming back to your post -- what circumstantial evidence --- ?? -- Do you have definitive proof that it was on a bombing mission or not -- If you do state it, if not then drop it -- simple as that ...

-What does PAF not disclosing the crash report or even reasoning on a formal level prove -- just in case you dont know missiles and jets are 2 different things -- their objectives, use etc.
So while your entire criticism maybe aimed at "look you guys lie" and hence I can believe such and such about the aircraft -- that is a hallow argument ..

because a customer who is making a multi million dollar purchase, will investigate and go through every part of what is fishy in a project just to be sure, as it is purchasing the result of a new project and is taking quite a risk with its money -- Myanmar could have gone for more Mig-29's ... but JFT was chosen --

- Thirdly for someone, who loves to talk all business tell me, if one from the targeted segment is the one purchasing the aircraft -- is that reflective of failure or success ?? --

Sir,


What is your purpose of justification-----when you start to explain to an enemy---you have already lost your point----you are coming from a position of weakness----.

If you know what the aircraft can do---then leave it at that-----.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Sir,


What is your purpose of justification-----when you start to explain to an enemy---you have already lost your point----you are coming from a position of weakness----.

If you know what the aircraft can do---then leave it at that-----.

Just killing time sir -- nothing way too serious --

 

[fatman17]

Aircraft of different types and category

 

[his5850]

Confirmed: India’s 'Mother of All Defense Deals' Is Dead Rafale deal cancelled
New Delhi will, however, issue a new Request for Proposal (RFP) for the purchase of 90 fighter jets very soon.



It is official now: The Indian government has cancelled its $12 billion program to purchase 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), according to Defense News.

“The RFP issued earlier for procurement of 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) has been withdrawn. In this multi-vendor procurement case, the Rafale aircraft met all the performance characteristics stipulated in the Request for Proposal (RFP) during the evaluation conducted by Indian Air Force,” a July 30 press release circulated by the Indian Ministry of Defense stated.

The statement provided no additional reasons for the program’s cancellation, although the announcement comes as no surprise to observers. Pricing differences as well as the inability to come to a mutually satisfactory arrangement over the question of technological transfers, as well doubts over India’s ability to build the plane locally, were the likely main causes for the withdrawal of the RFP.

As I reported back in June (See: “India to Buy Only 36 Rafale Jets”), the price tag for $20 billion MMRCA project went up 2.7 times from the original cost proposal, according to Indian press reports.

Originally, the MMRCA project had India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) building 108 out of a 126 total Rafale jets locally, with the first batch of 18 fighter jets directly delivered from France in flyaway condition.

However, New Delhi announced in April of this year that it would only purchase 36 off-the-shelf Rafale fighters in a government-to-government deal instead of the original 126. Back in June, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar told local press that 126 Rafale aircraft are “way too expensive” and “economically unviable and not required.” Purchasing the fighters would have been “a very steep slope to climb financially (…) we are not buying the rest. We are only buying the … 36,” he said.

The current contract under negotiation for the 36 off-the-shelf Rafale - expected to be concluded by the end of 2015 – includes an offset clause which stipulated that France will have to invest 50 percent of the contract value as offsets in India, which could cause further delays. The costs for the 36 Rafale fighters – excluding the maintenance contract and the weapons suite – are estimated at around $4.5 billion.

According to the Times of India, India will very soon invite global defense contractors to once more compete under the “Make in India” campaign to build 90 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force at an estimated cost of $30 billion.

“An RFP is expected to be drafted soon for making 90 MMRCAs in India. A global tender will be floated. The private sector will also have an active participation,” a source within the defense ministry told the Times of India.

Out of the 90 aircraft, 54 allegedly will be single-seaters and the remaining 36 tandem-seaters. There is also the possibility for the additional purchase of 45 fighters in a follow-up order, the source added.

The aircraft types that will be reconsidered include all jets from the original bidders such as Russia’s MIG-35 (RAC MiG), Swedish Gripen, French Dassault Rafale, American Lockheed Martin F-16IN and Boeing’s F/A-18IN Super Hornet and the Eurofighter Typhoon build by the Eurofighter consortium.

The Eurofighter consortium in particular could potentially benefit from the new RFP as I already stated in an article in May:

Germany had consistently lobbied against the purchase of the Rafale aircraft and — among other things — pointed out to New Delhi that the Rafale would only be the cheaper solution to the Eurofighter Typhoon multirole fighter if one excludes maintenance and future upgrade costs from the financial calculations. These lobbying efforts might perhaps be paying off now as India is reconsidering the Eurofighter option.