JF-17 Thunder programme has achieved important milestones: Air Chief

[Aamir Hussain]

The mindset of easy is making PAF less effective than it should be, who said that defending skies can be easy in Pakistan. If it easy then we are missing something, I am starting to get worried that if this is how the decision makers think in PAF. Hope this policy/state of mind changes. I do appreciate the financial constraints. As a ground support and Maritime role my money is on Mirage V with a lot of constraints yet better than JF17. Unfortunately the aircrafts are old and JF 17 maybe just able to do that role but I am very uncertain that they will be able to fill that role any time soon. It is good to have JF17 but thinking it can do everything is downright wishful thinking. Now I am saying this as an outsider with limited knowledge.

I understand where you are coming from and agree with some of the things you have mentioned but until we have an alternate option available,and in large numbers -- we need to evolve the bird we have in our hand.

I have a serious issue with the power plant and the cockpit visibility (An inherent flaw in Sovies/sino fighters)

 

[MastanKhan]

I've been following you for some time now and I agree with you on some matters if not all of them. My question is, shouldn't a nation invest in reinventing the wheel? it takes time, money and effort, yes but this single investment will bear fruits for decades. The knowledge gained from personal experience is far better than flying a ready made jet and/or assembling and maintaining it. I am a mechanical engineering student, and i specialize in design and analysis of machinery, from experience i can assure you that the knowledge gained from even the projects that do not have much commercial value or potency, one can learn and apply that knowledge to better potent machinery.

Hi,

No sane nation invests in re-inventing the wheel----. The thing is that the PAF is a fighting force---it is not a manufacturing conglomerate----it is not a factory producing nuts and bolts and aircraft----. Its primary purpose is to fight----procure the right aircraft and then train and train and be ready to fight----.

This manufacturing of aircraft is a drama staged by the air force----. It is a good drama that should have been staged in FREE TIME---and not o PRIME TIME.

Now as an engineering student---I can understand what you are interested in---you want the know how---yu want to put your hand on the machine----and what not---But this was not the job of the PAF.

Their job is to find parity with the enemy within the limit of their resources----starting with filling from the TOP DOWN.

What you young kids are forgetting is or do not know is that the reason the JF 17 is being pursued is that PAF analyzed and assessed in the early 2000 that the threat of war with india is minimal---.

So---they started Lollygagging----lost their focus---from 2002 till 2005---jumping from one aircraft to another and then to the F16 BLK52 for 72 aircraft.

Now remember----this air force was starving for an aircraft till sept 11 2001----it was begging left and right to find one---the desperation was so much that it was unbelievable----. When the sanctions came off-----India got really concerned----.

They wanted to SABOTGE the Pakistani procurement any which way they could----that is where the peace talks came in----drama here drama there----and PAF got fooled one more time----.

Just remember----people who strut around like if they are the gods of war in the air----are easily fooled as well----and for a 'baniya' to fool these strutters was easy----.

So---the moment the financial restraint hit pakistan----India was back to its normal game----scr-ew Pakistan----.

So---this lack of a primary air superiority fighter aircraft in paf colors by 2005 was out of sheer stupidity on the part of the PAF.

This brochure on the JF17----did you read the the specs on flight time----. In strike mode it is around 400-450 KM----in air superiority mode----it is what 700--750KM radius----.

That is a disgusting performance ----. This performance puts it at around 45 minutes of loiter time----facing an enemy who's main frame aircraft are at around 4 1/2 hours of loiter time.

Do you understand the importance of loiter time?

Now if you have 150 F16 BLK52's and a 100 J11's or a 100 J10C's----then you can compliment them with a force of 250 JF17's----but not without----.

I understand where you are coming from and agree with some of the things you have mentioned but until we have an alternate option available,and in large numbers -- we need to evolve the bird we have in our hand.

I have a serious issue with the power plant and the cockpit visibility (An inherent flaw in Sovies/sino fighters)

Hi,

I really don't think that the power plant should be an issue. Many a superior aircraft had lousy power---like the F14 and the Phantom----the mirage 3 was much to write home about----.

JF17 has a lot more power as compared to those aircraft----.

As for visibility---again---with all those nice gadget since there---visibility is a lesser issue----.

For me the biggest concern is the loiter time----. That was the reason the Syrians and the Egyptian MIG21s could not put up a fight---.

 

[GURU DUTT]

who is competitors
Saab Gripen...

as of now Su-30MKI,Mig29s , M2Ks,Jags, Bisons and FGFA-Rafale-LCA in future

 

[Zarvan]

Hi,

No sane nation invests in re-inventing the wheel----. The thing is that the PAF is a fighting force---it is not a manufacturing conglomerate----it is not a factory producing nuts and bolts and aircraft----. Its primary purpose is to fight----procure the right aircraft and then train and train and be ready to fight----.

This manufacturing of aircraft is a drama staged by the air force----. It is a good drama that should have been staged in FREE TIME---and not o PRIME TIME.

Now as an engineering student---I can understand what you are interested in---you want the know how---yu want to put your hand on the machine----and what not---But this was not the job of the PAF.

Their job is to find parity with the enemy within the limit of their resources----starting with filling from the TOP DOWN.

What you young kids are forgetting is or do not know is that the reason the JF 17 is being pursued is that PAF analyzed and assessed in the early 2000 that the threat of war with india is minimal---.

So---they started Lollygagging----lost their focus---from 2002 till 2005---jumping from one aircraft to another and then to the F16 BLK52 for 72 aircraft.

Now remember----this air force was starving for an aircraft till sept 11 2001----it was begging left and right to find one---the desperation was so much that it was unbelievable----. When the sanctions came off-----India got really concerned----.

They wanted to SABOTGE the Pakistani procurement any which way they could----that is where the peace talks came in----drama here drama there----and PAF got fooled one more time----.

Just remember----people who strut around like if they are the gods of war in the air----are easily fooled as well----and for a 'baniya' to fool these strutters was easy----.

So---the moment the financial restraint hit pakistan----India was back to its normal game----scr-ew Pakistan----.

So---this lack of a primary air superiority fighter aircraft in paf colors by 2005 was out of sheer stupidity on the part of the PAF.

This brochure on the JF17----did you read the the specs on flight time----. In strike mode it is around 400-450 KM----in air superiority mode----it is what 700--750KM radius----.

That is a disgusting performance ----. This performance puts it at around 45 minutes of loiter time----facing an enemy who's main frame aircraft are at around 4 1/2 hours of loiter time.

Do you understand the importance of loiter time?

Now if you have 150 F16 BLK52's and a 100 J11's or a 100 J10C's----then you can compliment them with a force of 250 JF17's----but not without----.



Hi,

I really don't think that the power plant should be an issue. Many a superior aircraft had lousy power---like the F14 and the Phantom----the mirage 3 was much to write home about----.

JF17 has a lot more power as compared to those aircraft----.

As for visibility---again---with all those nice gadget since there---visibility is a lesser issue----.

For me the biggest concern is the loiter time----. That was the reason the Syrians and the Egyptian MIG21s could not put up a fight---.

As of now we badly need two more 4.5th Generation Air Craft one and at least 3 squadrons of each. One should be Air Superiority Fighter and one should be a bomber

 

[Maarkhoor]

Hi,

No sane nation invests in re-inventing the wheel----. The thing is that the PAF is a fighting force---it is not a manufacturing conglomerate----it is not a factory producing nuts and bolts and aircraft----. Its primary purpose is to fight----procure the right aircraft and then train and train and be ready to fight----.

This manufacturing of aircraft is a drama staged by the air force----. It is a good drama that should have been staged in FREE TIME---and not o PRIME TIME.

Now as an engineering student---I can understand what you are interested in---you want the know how---yu want to put your hand on the machine----and what not---But this was not the job of the PAF.

Their job is to find parity with the enemy within the limit of their resources----starting with filling from the TOP DOWN.

What you young kids are forgetting is or do not know is that the reason the JF 17 is being pursued is that PAF analyzed and assessed in the early 2000 that the threat of war with india is minimal---.

So---they started Lollygagging----lost their focus---from 2002 till 2005---jumping from one aircraft to another and then to the F16 BLK52 for 72 aircraft.

Now remember----this air force was starving for an aircraft till sept 11 2001----it was begging left and right to find one---the desperation was so much that it was unbelievable----. When the sanctions came off-----India got really concerned----.

They wanted to SABOTGE the Pakistani procurement any which way they could----that is where the peace talks came in----drama here drama there----and PAF got fooled one more time----.

Just remember----people who strut around like if they are the gods of war in the air----are easily fooled as well----and for a 'baniya' to fool these strutters was easy----.

So---the moment the financial restraint hit pakistan----India was back to its normal game----scr-ew Pakistan----.

So---this lack of a primary air superiority fighter aircraft in paf colors by 2005 was out of sheer stupidity on the part of the PAF.

This brochure on the JF17----did you read the the specs on flight time----. In strike mode it is around 400-450 KM----in air superiority mode----it is what 700--750KM radius----.

That is a disgusting performance ----. This performance puts it at around 45 minutes of loiter time----facing an enemy who's main frame aircraft are at around 4 1/2 hours of loiter time.

Do you understand the importance of loiter time?

Now if you have 150 F16 BLK52's and a 100 J11's or a 100 J10C's----then you can compliment them with a force of 250 JF17's----but not without----.



Hi,

I really don't think that the power plant should be an issue. Many a superior aircraft had lousy power---like the F14 and the Phantom----the mirage 3 was much to write home about----.

JF17 has a lot more power as compared to those aircraft----.

As for visibility---again---with all those nice gadget since there---visibility is a lesser issue----.

For me the biggest concern is the loiter time----. That was the reason the Syrians and the Egyptian MIG21s could not put up a fight---.

What will be the easiest and possible option available for Pakistan to get more capable aircraft ?

 

[MastanKhan]

What will be the easiest and possible option available for Pakistan to get more capable aircraft ?

Hi,

The easiest option was to sign on the dotted line on the yemen war----. At the end of the day---Pakistan has to take the said of someone and it is not going to be Iran----.

If Pakistan had gotten involved---there would have been much lesser loss in life and property----a contract signed with the gulf state to consider any attack on either country an attack on all the states----and basically---as Indus falcon put it---a 100 billion dollars defense spending investment.

Now just to go and procure something----now----Pakistan need to change the submarine contract with china---instead of 8 submarines----for 5 billion dollars----they should go for 4 now----use the other 2 1/2 billion dollars for J11D's and JH7B's---and then after 4 years when the 4th submarine is coming thru-----sign another contract for 4 more----.

The money is already there and is available----some body just need to show the light----.

It is a waste of time to go for 8 submarines at the same time now----because it will take 7-8 years to get the last one.

So---if you take half the money away from the submarine program----and get aircraft----then you can put the money back in there after 4 years and yet after 8 years you will have 8 submarines----.

That is how you increase strength in parallel.

 

[mourning sage]

Hi,

The easiest option was to sign on the dotted line on the yemen war----. At the end of the day---Pakistan has to take the said of someone and it is not going to be Iran----.

If Pakistan had gotten involved---there would have been much lesser loss in life and property----a contract signed with the gulf state to consider any attack on either country an attack on all the states----and basically---as Indus falcon put it---a 100 billion dollars defense spending investment.

Now just to go and procure something----now----Pakistan need to change the submarine contract with china---instead of 8 submarines----for 5 billion dollars----they should go for 4 now----use the other 2 1/2 billion dollars for J11D's and JH7B's---and then after 4 years when the 4th submarine is coming thru-----sign another contract for 4 more----.

The money is already there and is available----some body just need to show the light----.

It is a waste of time to go for 8 submarines at the same time now----because it will take 7-8 years to get the last one.

So---if you take half the money away from the submarine program----and get aircraft----then you can put the money back in there after 4 years and yet after 8 years you will have 8 submarines----.

That is how you increase strength in parallel.

The problem is, we do not have competent civilian rulers. The military might consider one procedure to be the best without properly discovering other possibilities simply because they too are limited by the limitations of human brain. They need another narrative, a side of the story they can not think of because of their background as warriors. that is where the civilians come in, unfortunately, with their track record they are good for nothing morons. That is what has bit us in the back.

 

[MastanKhan]

The problem is, we do not have competent civilian rulers. The military might consider one procedure to be the best without properly discovering other possibilities simply because they too are limited by the limitations of human brain. They need another narrative, a side of the story they can not think of because of their background as warriors. that is where the civilians come in, unfortunately, with their track record they are good for nothing morons. That is what has bit us in the back.

Hi,

The bottomline is----Pakistan---the nation---needed an air superiority aircraft for its defense----the person or the organization which needed to procure it---the Pakistan air force---failed in its endeavor---.

In layman's term---the nation of Pakistan asked its air force to go buy a 50 lbs sledge hammer to smash the large concrete block----the PAF took upon itself to get a 5 lbs hammer and then made the excuse that it was EASY ON THE WRISTS----@silent hawk ---what do you say sir.

 

[nana41]

Block III will take time,why not increase the order of 50 Block II JF-17 into 100?

Agree, but that's what's going to happen for sure.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Here we go again!!!

 

[sathya]

Hi after all these years after JF 17 already being a success , I am getting basic doubt

Why would Pakistan go for jf17 ?

You could have gone for J10 from the beginning

It would saved you a lot .
Block upgrade would got done whether you want it or not by Chinese
AESA integration would have been easy
Range would have been more..

Perhaps Russian engine AL31 was the sticking point ?

 

[Beast]

Hi after all these years after JF 17 already being a success , I am getting basic doubt

Why would Pakistan go for jf17 ?

You could have gone for J10 from the beginning

It would saved you a lot .
Block upgrade would got done whether you want it or not by Chinese
AESA integration would have been easy
Range would have been more..

Perhaps Russian engine AL31 was the sticking point ?

JF-17 helps PAF to acquire manufacturing process of 3/4th gen fighter. This is something just buying J-10 will not accomplished. J-10 is solely a Chinese project. I dont think they will allow collaboration.

 

[sathya]

JF-17 helps PAF to acquire manufacturing process of 3/4th gen fighter. This is something just buying J-10 will not accomplished. J-10 is solely a Chinese project. I dont think they will allow collaboration.

What are they going to manufacture after JF 17 ?


If you are not going to give j10

 

[Beast]

What are they going to manufacture after JF 17 ?

How would I know? You can personally ask PAF chief.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

What are they going to manufacture after JF 17 ?


If you are not going to give j10

There was a news of Pakistan will manufacture J-10 But since Pakistan wants just 36 of em China was not ready to give manufacturing of these 36 but they want that to be 70+ and PAF still wants J-10 to Be more Advance then F-16's (Means newer Blocks of J-10)