JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[araz]

1= F-135 is coming with a unit price of 13 million, now do the labor of rest of the math and google yourself.
2= Even in Block 3, JF-17 will be no where near Block 52+ cuz it simply don't have the air frame capacity.
3= J-10 didn't worked out?
It's B variant falls between the block 52 and 60 in sensors+avionics and aerodynamically it just outclasses the falcon with an air frame even superior to that of the flankers.
The Aviationist » Chinese J-10A Fighter Jet Locks on Su-30MKK2 Flanker
View attachment 295970

Syed Hussain.
Kindly stop your rude attitude. If you had opened your eyes and read the post i have quoted the price to you both of EJ200 and RD93. The difference is substantial. The point remains that Pakistan cannot afford the EJ200 series engine as the cost differential is not sustainable for the fleet substittution that PAF is looking for. So no need to remind me to do the maths for I have laready done it .
PAF designed the JFT for a specific purpose. It was not meant to go toe to toe with XYZ, but to establish aviation industry in Pakistan with a product which would be easy to integrate and absorb. It will be upgraded as per requirements and available finances. not on your whims.
PLAAF has just released J10 A for sale. To date there is no news that J10 B or C is up for sale. If you have any resource to suggest that please produce. The last we heard from Pshamim of pakdef.info was that the Chinese wanted 40 million per unit for 40 J10 A(20110-12) PAF offered or estimated the cost per plane to be 28 million. We now do not even have money to pay the 28 million much less establish infrastructure for an additional 4th generation fighter.
Funny that PAF pilots as per windjammer andHkhan of pakdef.info have reported flame out of J10 engines during the recent PAF and PLAAF exercises in China. No one has actually come out with how the JFT performed in comparison to J10 series. Your assumptions regarding Chinese avionics are unproven and need verification. Needless to say that once technologies mature PAF will incorporate these into JFT as it has earlier.. Perhaps you are unwaware of the recent 2 crashes of j10Bs which are curerently being investigated.
Whatever I have asked you I have asked you civilly, dont respond to a civil post with rudeness. If you dont want to respond to me please feel free to put me on your ignore list.
A

the rd-93 is 79 kn dry and 98kn wet
the ej-200 (stage 2) is 78 dry and 120kn wet
yes it would be in excess of 10 million.
the point I am making is think of the benefits of having the engne regardless of price.
true the jf-17 was made to be cheap, but it has the benefits of being more effecient/faster, more range, more stealthy with the ability to super cruise and its lighter as well.

Thank you for clearifying that. As you can see the price differential is massive and adds to the per unit cost plus cost of integration on to platform plus modifications plus infrastructure. You then have the added disadvantage of dealing with 3-4 Governments which may or may not approve the engine. The smoke aside RD93 has performed well and has been hassle free in PAFs hands. So one has to justify such a massive change with tangible benefits which purely on cost do not matchup. PAF is broke and does not have the additional leeway with cash to be extravagant.There are aways many ways of looking a things and while I can see the advantages, I cant see it happeneing due to cost constraints.
Regards
A

Why would you go EJ2000 for the JFT? The engine and overhaul, spare and maintenance would cost billions of dollars for no good reason. Stick to RD-93 MA and hopefully get TOT for a Chinese variant soon, specific to the JFT. You'll never hve to worry about sanctions. Plus Russia has never sanctioned anyone unless they were at a conflict with them. In Pakistan's case, they are getting ready to start investing $ 5-5 billion packages and then there is a $ 20 billion package slated for 2018 to help Pakistan find, extract and mine Iron and Copper and then build Metal at the Steel mills in Karachi and Punjab. So for a few million per engine, why would they risk their own billions they'll be investing into Pakistan??

The JFT, at some point, needs to have all the TOT provided to Pakistan, including a Chinese engine. That way, the entire soup to nuts will be produced and manufactured in Pakistan (at-least up till block II and III).

I think you are right in your assumptions although I take any projections of investment in Pakistan with a pinch of salt having grown up on these rumours. As to complete TOT I cant see us being able to absorb the technology of engine building. We dont even manufacture car engines much less turbo fans so we are very far away from that stage.
A

 

[Blue Marlin]

Thank you for clearifying that. As you can see the price differential is massive and adds to the per unit cost plus cost of integration on to platform plus modifications plus infrastructure. You then have the added disadvantage of dealing with 3 Governments which may or may not approve the engine. The smoke aside RD93 has performed well and has been hassle free in PAFs hands. So one has to justifysuch a massive change with tangible benefits which purely on cost do not matchup. PAF is broke and does not have the additional leeway wqith cash to be extravagant.There are aways many ways of looking a tthings and while I can see the advantages, I cant see it happeneing due to cost constraints.
Regards
A

the only issues i can see is the price, sure its expensive but look at ths advantages i gave you. dealing with 3 governments is a more of a hassle than a problem.

• rolls royce[UK] has a 33% development share with a 34.5% production share.this makes rolls the largest share holder
• mtu aero engines [Germany]has a 33% development share with a 33% production share.
• avio [italy] has a 21% development share with a 19.5% production share.
• itp [Spain {owned by rolls royce(47%) and serer aeronautica(53%) }]has a 13% development share with a 16% production share.

you can check out which countries make which parts here: EuroJet Turbo GmbH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so its 4 countries you have the hassle of dealing with, all of which would be happy to do business with you guys, other wise if you think differently
the rd-93 does have a smoke trail typically when the throttle is adjusted. this is do to inefficient combustion and is cosmetic but does take a lot more fuel

 

[araz]

the only issues i can see is the price, sure its expensive but look at ths advantages i gave you. dealing with 3 governments is a more of a hassle than a problem.

• rolls royce[UK] has a 33% development share with a 34.5% production share.this makes rolls the largest share holder
• mtu aero engines [Germany]has a 33% development share with a 33% production share.
• avio [italy] has a 21% development share with a 19.5% production share.
• itp [Spain {owned by rolls royce(47%) and serer aeronautica(53%) }]has a 13% development share with a 16% production share.

you can check out which countries make which parts here: EuroJet Turbo GmbH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so its 4 countries you have the hassle of dealing with, all of which would be happy to do business with you guys, other wise if you think differently
the rd-93 does have a smoke trail typically when the throttle is adjusted. this is do to inefficient combustion and is cosmetic but does take a lot more fuel

And it is a MAJOR issue with PAF. we are not talking of 40 engines, we will need at least 200 plus
A

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Hi,
Esteem members here are indulging into A vs B comparison. Sure, on technical grounds, there always are merits and demerits of every product and system.
Then there are economical aspects. The selection of engine for a Fighter platform is not a mere "tactical" but a "strategic" decision. Strategic decisions tend to have a very broad scope and are based on next 40-50 years of insight.
Let me divulge your attention to the political and diplomatic aspects regarding RD-93 vs EJ-2000.
EJ series engine is from a consortium of European companies.

Either you deny it or not:
1. EU is very sensitive about their latest technologies finding its way to Chinese. JF17 is a JV between Pakistan and China. So, whenever they will allow the engine for Thunder, there will be many strings attached.
2. If EU has a liking for Pakistan, they have a "crush" over India. Mind you, the socio-economic-political-military interests of EU in India are much more then few billions they might extract from Pakistan in any such deal. Always remember, Typhoon was and still is a contender for Indian lucrative MMRCA purchase. So the consortium will not like an "offended" India. You can take the example, where Pakistan merely showed interest in French avionics and what happened after that.

Now coming back to Russia, the current RD-93 deal can be seen as an opening up of Russia-Pakistan defense ties. Who would have imagined a decade ago that we are hearing news like Pakistan's interest in SU-35?
Pakistan purchase of MI-35?
Gradually increasing number of Pakistan's transport helicopter fleet of Russian origin?
"Kilmov", always remember this name with JF-17, MI-35 or MI-17
Offer something for Russia and get much more in returns. Look at RD93 from this PoV, you will see it as a sound and excellent decision.

 

[Blue Marlin]

And it is a MAJOR issue with PAF. we are not talking of 40 engines, we will need at least 200 plus
A

i was thinking more than that, the ej-200 will do quiet nicely powering the j31. i was thinking co production where the partners supply the sensitive kit and you guys build the non sensitive kit and put it together. just like what south korea is doing with the ge404. or what turkey did with the f100. but it is expensive and dependant on china if they have a good engine by 2025 which they probably will then theres no need, as china and Pakistan are theoretically "brothers" and it will come with no strings attached.

but there is an engine we have all missed, al-222-95f. the same company that supplies the al-222-25f engine to china for the l15 trainer. the 'f' part of the name means its got reheat or an afterburner. they just mastered this technology quiet recently in fact[2008] and they said they are working on an engine with 9.5/10 tonnes of thrust. which has been offer to china as a co production for use on the fc-1. and in fact they [motor sich] are building a factory in china. and Ukraine is desperate for money, so a decent multi billion dollar offer would make them suffice.also if i remember correctly they Ukraine wants to increase defense co-operation with pakistan.

also note this wont be in a few years time if something were to materialize. this would be in about 2020 ish when your economy is much better, if the path were to be taken.

 

[Syed Hussain]

Firstly, Thanks to @Syed Hussain for some great info. Lets set a few things in plain laymans english.

1. RD-93 IS NOT BOUGHT FROM CHINA ANYMORE. PAF buys it directly from Russia. If relations go sour, they could easily embargo Pakistan just as any other nation.

2. Cost of RD-93 is said to be ~$2.5M/unit and has a mean service life of 2200hrs. The afformentioned RD-93MA will have more power but a lower service life (it sacrifices life for power, meaning over the course of the life of the airframe it will have gone through more engines).

3. RD-93 has a wet output of 19,400lbs whereas the EJ200 20,250lbs, but the EJ200 weighs 200lbs less, costs ~$5.5-7M (rough estimates that I have found on internet) and has a mean service live of 6000hrs (Nearly 3X what the RD-93 has an more than 3X what the Rd-93MA will have. It has far better fuel consumption and given its smaller dimensions the EJ200 will allow for the ability to carry more fuel and electronics (smaller engine tube opens space for other material/equipment).
- In the end it will allow more payload with far better range (given more fuel capacity and better fuel efficiency) with overall less cost (by ~$500K - 2M/aircraft/engine vs RD-93) given you will replace 3 Rd-93 by the time your EJ200 is due for replacement.

*** I got the cost of the EJ200 by looking at the Trach II Typhoon contract for 519 EJ200s. Rolls Royce announced that their share was worth £750M (2007) (which translates into ~£970M today). As their share was 36% the total cost in 2007 of the 519 engines was ~£2Billion (2007--> £2.7B today) or £4M/engine (2007-->£5M today) that translates to $5.5M/engine (2007) or $7M today. If you translate even todays costs savings of $500K/aircraft/EJ200, that means over 50 aircraft (lets say only block III for now) you would save $25M over the coarse of the engines, that does not include fuel savings.

Typhoon Order Worth Over £750 Million to Rolls-Royce

4. Regarding sanctions, from what I have read and please correct me if I'm wrong (@Quwa, @MastanKhan, @Syed Hussain, @Blue Marlin and any others), the UK's post-Nuclear test sanctions have specifically targeted dual use technology that can go into making nuclear weapons or missiles. There have been limited to no ecnoomic/military sanctions against Pakistan from UK, so talking about sanctions regarding the EJ200 is a bit premature. Additionally when you consider the fact that it has less parts than the RD-93 and costs roughly 1.5X what the RD-93 does, you are able to likely buy enough engines that the fleet would (1) be protected against sanctions until it could switch engines, and (2) have enough service life on the engines that the fleet would be able to operate still. The same could not be said for the RD-93.

5. JF-17 is said to have a modular design, with the ability to host numerous engines with little redesign (including the RD-93, EJ200, M-88-2, and some have even reported M-53-P2 in the past (which would have been a great first selection)).

Now an interesting wrinkle in all of this is the EJ2X0 which is an uprated variant of the EJ200 which in stage 1 produces upwards of 23000lbs of thrust on reheat and with stage 2 mods will produces up to 27000lbs of thrust. These may cost a bit more but may be worth considering as well if PAF does ever go for EJ200. Additionally, even if PAF never chooses to go for the EJ200, it should have PAC definitely invest in modifying a test bed for JF-17 for engine testing (especially for EJ200 or M-88-2 and WS-13) so as to have the ability to quickly make the necessary modifications to the aircraft for potential sales. KSA (who off and on still stick their hat into the JF-17 ring) would probably love to see a block III with AESA operating an EJ200 which would give it commonality and cost savings with their Typhoons.

Additionally, let us not forget that the Italians are also members of the Eurojet consortium (via Avio) and that any EJ200 sale could potentially also be encouraged as part of a large package including avionics for block III via Selex ES/Finmeccanica who owns Avio.

A sound analysis

 

[Basel]

it smaller in terms of thrust capability and the engine diameter and the weight. this means the entire planes needs to be re balanced as the centre of gravity has been changed as the engine is lighter ans smaller. also the intakes would need to be reworked. due to the jf-17's modular layout this should not be too much of a problem. [/B]also do under stand its is doing to cost more, i cant find it's price but i would imagine some where north of $10 million, the stage 2 variant is a more powerful version of the ej-200 that gives about 120kn wet. considering it being a small engine it will make the f100-229 on the blk52 look bad. do remember the 229 gives of 129kn wet but it is on a heavier jet the f16 but the ej200 is lighter and the 9kn difference is alot considering it will be on a jet much smaller than the f16. it will easily give the jf-17 the ability to supercruise and thrust to weight ratio of more than 1:1.2

also for the post before you quoted me can you put the source in as well regarding the ej200 and the price of the rd-93

For bold part: that is one reason PAF is interested in this engine for JFT's "B" variant as it will allow more space, making it easier for designing team to create space for 2nd person without losing engine power.

 

[Viper0011.]

I think you are right in your assumptions although I take any projections of investment in Pakistan with a pinch of salt having grown up on these rumours. As to complete TOT I cant see us being able to absorb the technology of engine building. We dont even manufacture car engines much less turbo fans so we are very far away from that stage.

I am sorry that you suffered from a 70 year system that didn't do jack shiit. But there are people here, who'll glorify the military rule over naked eye visible development and growth that's taking place, and after when the military finally said to the civilians, go ahead and have at it. Had this been done 20-30 years ago, today, Pakistan would be competing with South Korea in electronics and would be above Australia in GDP!!!! So I can't make up for the past.

However, for the current state and the future state, I don't know why you'd question anything. The Russians have already started to invest about $ 5 billion initially in the Steel Mills. They have started to provide you with military hardware when you were probably the only nation who took down their air-crafts like flies, each time they intruded from the Afghani airspace and one of the shot down planes had a pilot who became Russia's VP a decade or so later. Not to mention the defeat and breakdown of the USSR was pretty much due to the US-Pakistan collaboration.

So if they've decided to forget about such serious historical events and break down of their country, I think you can see the evidence and see the proof in Russian funds flowing through the Pakistani economy. Its not that difficult unless you would like to ignore all good things being done due to your personal political reasons, which is when I'd question you, what's more important? The guy you like to vote for, or the country? That's a question you and others should really think about before being negative on everything. That negativity won't help you and your mindset or your country.

There are BILLIONS of people on this planet who make less than a DOLLAR a day. But they go to work every day and provide whatever little they can to their children, in that less than a dollar income. I don't even know if one can buy a meal for less than a dollar!!!!! But why do these billions of people struggle day in day out? They are hoping, that in the next few years, one or two of their children will get educated, will get scholarships, and will rise to the top, and they will forever change the past of where they came from, etc, and will grow to riches. That's not just a dream, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Obama, and many others across the globe (not so high up but still very rich) are an example of this hope.

So the point is, learn to have hope. The world lives on hope and optimism and it works. With the work being done in Pakistan, many Wall Street investors I know, are super excited and optimistic about Pakistan. And they are projecting the next three decades post 2018 to be $$$$ rainy years in terms of profit from Pakistan on their investments.

Sadly, your post and many other Pakistanis, don't want to admit that their country is moving forward and is on a strong course. All due to their silly political affiliation, and there is no pill to cure ignorance to be honest. You decide how you want to think, its not my job. I measure performance by work, increasing quality of living, more jobs, more projects and economic growth, basically, all numbers as numbers never lie. The rest is all talk.

On the engine issue, that's why you'd want to get TOT so you can establish the most basic factories and institutions for continuation of the existing design, plus R&D for future. It shouldn't be too difficult as Pakistan has a large engineering base labor available. Plus, she also has existing engineering complexes where many different types of engines are overhauled today. So your engineers and techs already know all components and associated technology for jet engines, you just take that to the next step and actually manufacture it. So assembly first and R&D later for future versions, similar to how the JFT air-frame and avioncis were developed.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

When paf bought the first batch of the F16's----they were falling from the skies lioke ducks being shot down----. Every other month there were crashed---.

23 crashed in 1982---20 crashed in 1983---just keep on counting--.

Just click on this link and click on the year and see how many crashes are there.

F-16 Mishaps & Accident Reports

Paf must have at least 50 aircrat equipped with the EJ200.

The RD93 versions would be used for export version to nations who cannot buy the EJ200 variant.

I would go further---they should already have had an EJ200 variant mounted engine for a JF 17 for demo to the gulf states.

Nothing sells like the actual product in the form and function of what the buyer may want and something far exceeding their expectations.

 

[Quwa]

Firstly, Thanks to @Syed Hussain for some great info. Lets set a few things in plain laymans english.

1. RD-93 IS NOT BOUGHT FROM CHINA ANYMORE. PAF buys it directly from Russia. If relations go sour, they could easily embargo Pakistan just as any other nation.

2. Cost of RD-93 is said to be ~$2.5M/unit and has a mean service life of 2200hrs. The afformentioned RD-93MA will have more power but a lower service life (it sacrifices life for power, meaning over the course of the life of the airframe it will have gone through more engines).

3. RD-93 has a wet output of 19,400lbs whereas the EJ200 20,250lbs, but the EJ200 weighs 200lbs less, costs ~$5.5-7M (rough estimates that I have found on internet) and has a mean service live of 6000hrs (Nearly 3X what the RD-93 has an more than 3X what the Rd-93MA will have. It has far better fuel consumption and given its smaller dimensions the EJ200 will allow for the ability to carry more fuel and electronics (smaller engine tube opens space for other material/equipment).
- In the end it will allow more payload with far better range (given more fuel capacity and better fuel efficiency) with overall less cost (by ~$500K - 2M/aircraft/engine vs RD-93) given you will replace 3 Rd-93 by the time your EJ200 is due for replacement.

*** I got the cost of the EJ200 by looking at the Trach II Typhoon contract for 519 EJ200s. Rolls Royce announced that their share was worth £750M (2007) (which translates into ~£970M today). As their share was 36% the total cost in 2007 of the 519 engines was ~£2Billion (2007--> £2.7B today) or £4M/engine (2007-->£5M today) that translates to $5.5M/engine (2007) or $7M today. If you translate even todays costs savings of $500K/aircraft/EJ200, that means over 50 aircraft (lets say only block III for now) you would save $25M over the coarse of the engines, that does not include fuel savings.

Typhoon Order Worth Over £750 Million to Rolls-Royce

4. Regarding sanctions, from what I have read and please correct me if I'm wrong (@Quwa, @MastanKhan, @Syed Hussain, @Blue Marlin and any others), the UK's post-Nuclear test sanctions have specifically targeted dual use technology that can go into making nuclear weapons or missiles. There have been limited to no ecnoomic/military sanctions against Pakistan from UK, so talking about sanctions regarding the EJ200 is a bit premature. Additionally when you consider the fact that it has less parts than the RD-93 and costs roughly 1.5X what the RD-93 does, you are able to likely buy enough engines that the fleet would (1) be protected against sanctions until it could switch engines, and (2) have enough service life on the engines that the fleet would be able to operate still. The same could not be said for the RD-93.

5. JF-17 is said to have a modular design, with the ability to host numerous engines with little redesign (including the RD-93, EJ200, M-88-2, and some have even reported M-53-P2 in the past (which would have been a great first selection)).

Now an interesting wrinkle in all of this is the EJ2X0 which is an uprated variant of the EJ200 which in stage 1 produces upwards of 23000lbs of thrust on reheat and with stage 2 mods will produces up to 27000lbs of thrust. These may cost a bit more but may be worth considering as well if PAF does ever go for EJ200. Additionally, even if PAF never chooses to go for the EJ200, it should have PAC definitely invest in modifying a test bed for JF-17 for engine testing (especially for EJ200 or M-88-2 and WS-13) so as to have the ability to quickly make the necessary modifications to the aircraft for potential sales. KSA (who off and on still stick their hat into the JF-17 ring) would probably love to see a block III with AESA operating an EJ200 which would give it commonality and cost savings with their Typhoons.

Additionally, let us not forget that the Italians are also members of the Eurojet consortium (via Avio) and that any EJ200 sale could potentially also be encouraged as part of a large package including avionics for block III via Selex ES/Finmeccanica who owns Avio.

The primary issue for Pakistan is going to be cost. I think it is fair to look at RD-93MA as a distinct engine to the RD-93. If looked at from that PoV, then the PAF could conceivably go for EJ200; unlike RD-93MA, it is available today, and the PAF was able to do some feasibility studies on it. I expect the opening for a new engine would occur when the JF-17 makes its Gripen-NG style shift.

 

[Viper0011.]

I would go further---they should already have had an EJ200 variant mounted engine for a JF 17 for demo to the gulf states..

I agree with the idea in terms of the capability. But then it defeats the purpose of what the JFT is....it is a "cheaper" alternative (albeit with more weapons integration capability) to some 3rd, 4th generation Western alternatives like the Mirages, F-16 (earlier blocks) and Gripen, etc.

If you put EJ2000, then it would make 0 sense to not induct Meteor and all. So the cost of the JFT will jump up to what? $ 40-45 million? Why would someone want the JFT and not used Mirage 2000's and used F-16's block 40-50 from the US for that much money (or even brand new Gripen as they would love the sale)?

Every business has a strategy and customer base the business caters too. The JFT doesn't cater to customer with EJ200 and Meteor at this point with the price point and sales pitch it is designed with. May be an advanced looking JFT block III or IV would get into the league of more cost, price and all (the one with a diamond nose cone PS'd picture we've seen a million times on here)?

 

[MastanKhan]

I agree with the idea in terms of the capability. But then it defeats the purpose of what the JFT is....it is a "cheaper" alternative (albeit with more weapons integration capability) to some 3rd, 4th generation Western alternatives like the Mirages, F-16 (earlier blocks) and Gripen, etc.

If you put EJ2000, then it would make 0 sense to not induct Meteor and all. So the cost of the JFT will jump up to what? $ 40-45 million? Why would someone want the JFT and not used Mirage 2000's and used F-16's block 40-50 from the US for that much money (or even brand new Gripen as they would love the sale)?

Every business has a strategy and customer base the business caters too. The JFT doesn't cater to customer with EJ200 and Meteor at this point with the price point and sales pitch it is designed with. May be an advanced looking JFT block III or IV would get into the league of more cost, price and all (the one with a diamond nose cone PS'd picture we've seen a million times on here)?

Hi,

Because the overall cost of ownership would still be much lower---.

The display is for those countries who want to help pakistan in its fighter program and get and excellent product in return at a very cost effective price.

Next would be for self----if the J10B / C is not being inducted----then that is the best way to get a performance package to match it.

Used M2K's with all the bells and whistles are right up there---as for Gripen NG----a JF17 blk 3 with EJ200 and selex aesa would still be cheaper by 20-30 million dollars
.

With commitment and application Pakistan can easily catch the Gripen market---or make a big dent in it..

I think that South Africa made a BAD MISTAKE by not going for the JF17 aircraft---if they had bought this aircraft---they could have packaged it with their gizmos and gadgets and that would have provided a massive boost to their defence industry.

All the 2nd tier middle eastern and sub sahara countries are not going to get the BVR for the F16's and neither would they get the aesa.

The bottomline is---that as a selling tool---show the product---let the buyer decide----let the buyer make the choice---. Some simply hate the americans---some may not want to deal with the french or the swedes---.

Some just like YOUR PERSONALITY---they TRUST YOU and want to buy from you---.

It is basic simplecar sales 101---when two people meet---a sale is made---either they sell you on the idea that your product is not for them---or you sell them on the idea that your is the product best suitable for them.

Just take the example of Huyndai automobiles---When they came to the U S in the late 80's---many bought them because they were cheap---others now buy them for their warranty---and many buy teir upper level product for a replacement of a true luxury vehicle.

 

[JamD]

I would go further---they should already have had an EJ200 variant mounted engine for a JF 17 for demo to the gulf states.

Nothing sells like the actual product in the form and function of what the buyer may want and something far exceeding their expectations.

Okay now THAT is a great idea. If we can have a JF-17 flying with a Chinese engine surely we can have one flying with the EJ200. I would expect this to be very helpful in making the market for the JF-17 wider.

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

Because the overall cost of ownership would still be much lower---.

The display is for those countries who want to help pakistan in its fighter program and get and excellent product in return at a very cost effective price.

Next would be for self----if the J10B / C is not being inducted----then that is the best way to get a performance package to match it.

Used M2K's with all the bells and whistles are right up there---as for Gripen NG----a JF17 blk 3 with EJ200 and selex aesa would still be cheaper by 20-30 million dollars
.

With commitment and application Pakistan can easily catch the Gripen market---or make a big dent in it..

I think that South Africa made a BAD MISTAKE by not going for the JF17 aircraft---if they had bought this aircraft---they could have packaged it with their gizmos and gadgets and that would have provided a massive boost to their defence industry.

All the 2nd tier middle eastern and sub sahara countries are not going to get the BVR for the F16's and neither would they get the aesa.

The bottomline is---that as a selling tool---show the product---let the buyer decide----let the buyer make the choice---. Some simply hate the americans---some may not want to deal with the french or the swedes---.

Some just like YOUR PERSONALITY---they TRUST YOU and want to buy from you---.

It is basic simplecar sales 101---when two people meet---a sale is made---either they sell you on the idea that your product is not for them---or you sell them on the idea that your is the product best suitable for them.

Just take the example of Huyndai automobiles---When they came to the U S in the late 80's---many bought them because they were cheap---others now buy them for their warranty---and many buy teir upper level product for a replacement of a true luxury vehicle.

MK - with all due respect, this isn't selling things to people. In these deals, there is no such thing as personality, or if they like a sales guy better. If so was the case, the American executives from Lockheed and Boeing, are very close to many Indian execs, both in commercial and government, here in the US and in India. So it would be a piece of cake to sel them the F-16's or the F-18's, etc. But guess what? That didn't happen as no matter how much commission you add, Indians had to look at many options and pick the one that supported their national interest. I am more than sure that also had commissions but the national interest was the top priority and the capability with it.

Also, please remember, if any countries want to "help" Pakistan grow her industry by buying the JFT, they'd do it with the current package it has and will use it as a lower tier daily CAP plane (while giving rest to the F-15's and EFT's in KSA's case). They'd like a Western radar and Western missiles but that's it. They won't risk their countries defense because they want to help build a test tube jet that no one knows how it'll perform with EJ2000 and everything pretty much being different than the standard JFT.

Also, the JFT with EJ2000 and French or Western avionics and other missiles would require other modifications too. No one would want the Chinese option if the French is available to them. But the JFT's current systems will also need to be modified to allow for Western systems to be attached and incorporated.

Next, the air-frame, with the current air-frame, its a hybrid of Aluminum and Composites (composites are coming in block II as that would become the standard). So why would any modern nation looking at the French option of the JFT would want the air-frame to have older style Aluminum? Well, now you need to re-do air-frame and that would require a lot of $$$$, design, changes, materials, testing and final approval all over again.

When someone has to go through all this drama and STILL get a "Pakistani" first generation jet, why not get Gripen or Mirage 2K9, or F-16's b;ock 40-50, Mig-29SMT, etc,etc? All these come with pre-wired weapons package of their respective country, modern airframes, radars and all. Why both putting your money into a "Test Tube" half Chinese, half French baby that has to go through a redesign, as she was initially meant to be just a Chinese doll??

Again, I like the idea. But the implications of EJ2000 don't buy Pakistan a whole lot in any direction. The program manager and designers aren't stupid either. They now openly say that the RD-93 (MA) is the best choice.

Always remember, a product has a customer and user base with a certain cost limits. When you cross that price, your market changes and you then find yourself in a market that you were never designed to enter (Market Entry), which means, your business will fail and you'll have to go back to the drawing board to start from somewhat scratch for that higher end market due to competition being much better with many decades of experience in designing jets, with solid reputations like Lockheed, Dasault, etc, etc.

The JFT at max should get a Western radar and BVR missiles. That would be an awesome package. The rest, doesn't need to change, unless you get to block IV and say you want to redesign the entire platform.

 

[MastanKhan]

MK - with all due respect, this isn't selling things to people. In these deals, there is no such thing as personality, or if they like a sales guy better. If so was the case, the American executives from Lockheed and Boeing, are very close to many Indian execs, both in commercial and government, here in the US and in India. So it would be a piece of cake to sel them the F-16's or the F-18's, etc. But guess what? That didn't happen as no matter how much commission you add, Indians had to look at many options and pick the one that supported their national interest. I am more than sure that also had commissions but the national interest was the top priority and the capability with it.

Also, please remember, if any countries want to "help" Pakistan grow her industry by buying the JFT, they'd do it with the current package it has and will use it as a lower tier daily CAP plane (while giving rest to the F-15's and EFT's in KSA's case). They'd like a Western radar and Western missiles but that's it. They won't risk their countries defense because they want to help build a test tube jet that no one knows how it'll perform with EJ2000 and everything pretty much being different than the standard JFT.

Also, the JFT with EJ2000 and French or Western avionics and other missiles would require other modifications too. No one would want the Chinese option if the French is available to them. But the JFT's current systems will also need to be modified to allow for Western systems to be attached and incorporated.

Next, the air-frame, with the current air-frame, its a hybrid of Aluminum and Composites (composites are coming in block II as that would become the standard). So why would any modern nation looking at the French option of the JFT would want the air-frame to have older style Aluminum? Well, now you need to re-do air-frame and that would require a lot of $$$$, design, changes, materials, testing and final approval all over again.

When someone has to go through all this drama and STILL get a "Pakistani" first generation jet, why not get Gripen or Mirage 2K9, or F-16's b;ock 40-50, Mig-29SMT, etc,etc? All these come with pre-wired weapons package of their respective country, modern airframes, radars and all. Why both putting your money into a "Test Tube" half Chinese, half French baby that has to go through a redesign, as she was initially meant to be just a Chinese doll??

Again, I like the idea. But the implications of EJ2000 don't buy Pakistan a whole lot in any direction. The program manager and designers aren't stupid either. They now openly say that the RD-93 (MA) is the best choice.

Always remember, a product has a customer and user base with a certain cost limits. When you cross that price, your market changes and you then find yourself in a market that you were never designed to enter (Market Entry), which means, your business will fail and you'll have to go back to the drawing board to start from somewhat scratch for that higher end market due to competition being much better with many decades of experience in designing jets, with solid reputations like Lockheed, Dasault, etc, etc.

The JFT at max should get a Western radar and BVR missiles. That would be an awesome package. The rest, doesn't need to change, unless you get to block IV and say you want to redesign the entire platform.

Hi,

I will agree to that----most part. But still---if there is EJ200 available---there must be one platform to show what it can do.

The RD93 is doing a great job---no doubt but it has limitations. From a position of uncertainty---this engine has brought us to a point of recognition---like we are now at the base camp of the K2---.

Now if you look at it---the life of the engine has been reduced from 4000 hrs to 2200 hrs----so in that sense---even for pakistan air force---it is better to go for the EJ200 version----which has a life span of around 6000 hrs---.

So---paf does not need to market it to other nations---the EJ200 variant would serve better for pakistan.

And again---if you fly it---people would want it.