JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[monitor]

Chinese KLJ-3 pulse Doppler fire control radar copied from Israeli technologies for "peaceful" rise



Chinese KLJ-3 pulse Doppler fire control radar
The first step in the reverse engineering process is to import a couple of kits and then copy them part by part to final assembly.

Recently, Russian media reports that the Chinese J-10 fighter uses NIIR Phazotron Company’s Zhuk Zhemchoug airborne fire control radar. In fact, PLA Air force J-10 is equipped domestic KLJ-3 pulse Doppler fire control radar.

KLJ-3 radar is indeed the result of the introduction of foreign technology, but it is not from Russia, but Israel.

In 1986, J-10 fighter program started. When the Chinese Air Force dispatched pilots go to France to fly Mirage 2000 for evaluation, the Chinese pilots were impressed with Mirage-2000′s avionics and advanced cockpit display system. After the test in France, Pilot Ge Wenyong bluntly said that if counterpart Mirage 2000 pilots do not make mistakes, PLA Air Force J-7 and J-8 fighters have no chance of winning. But Chinese electronics industry was weak at 1980s, and it is difficult to meet the development requirements of the new combat aircraft. In this case, the Heads of Chinese military has determined to actively introduce advanced foreign technology, and push the the development of Chinese avionics industry.

In later 1980s, China began aviation technical cooperation with Israel, including the a full set of LAVI fighter avionics systems. LAVI’s original EL/M-2035 multifunction pulse Doppler fire control radar, which uses a phase parameters transmitter and multi-channel receiver, programmable signal processing system, look-down capacity as 46 km detection range. Its air-to-air modes include RWS (range-while-search), TWS (Track-While-Scan), dogfight, single target tracking; the air-to-ground modes include ranging, real beam mapping and Doppler beam sharpening. The radar has weights of 138 kg. However when the LAVI project ended, the development of EL/M-2035 was also cancelled.

Later, Israel improved EL/M-2035 improvements into EL/M-2032, which was displayed for the first time at the 1987 Paris Air Show. EL/M-2032 in aerial target designation mode has the maximum search distance to reach 150 km; in the air-to-sea mode detection range over 300 km. There have been reports that the Israeli Air Force are not satisfied with F-16I fighter AN/APG-68V-9 radar’s performance and hoped to replace by EL/M-2032 radar, but the United States refused. This also reflects high- performance EL/M-2032, rising as a threat to the U.S. radar.

The introduction of the LAVI aviation electronic systems in China, was known as the 873 avionics integrated system based on 1553B data bus, which was officially launched in 1989, began to conduct test flights in 1993. Other sub-systems including airborne radar, inertial navigation, mission computer display management sub-systems, air data computers, plug-in management system. The 873 project has laid a solid foundation for J-10 to reach full operational capability and greatly raise the R&D Level of Chinese aviation industry.

China imported a multi-Ministry EL/M-2032-radar airborne radar, on which China develops KLJ-3 radar. KLJ-3 uses a double mode grid controlled TWT transmitter, so that the radar is the equivalent of two transmitters, greatly improve the performance of the radar. KLJ-3 works by low operating ratio in the low PRF mode, but also work in high work than high PRF mode. It means KLJ-3 features with real multifunction performance.

The real specifications of KLJ-3 radar are still unknown, but we can deduce its performance by KLJ-7 radar.Pakistan Air Force JF-17 is equipped with KLJ-7 airborne pulse Doppler radar with maximum detection range of 130 km, TWS mode can simultaneously track 10 targets and simultaneously guided two SD-10A active radar-guided air-to-air missile attack two biggest threats. KLJ-7 also has ground moving target indication, synthetic aperture imaging and other advanced work mode, with a strong ground attack capability. KLJ-7 antenna aperture and power supply capacity is lower than the J-10′s KLJ-3, so you can imagine KLJ-3 has better tactical and technical indicators.
China started airborne radar cooperation with Russia at the beginning of 1990s. In addition to NO01E, NO01VE radar for supporting the Su-27SK, Su-30MKK fleets, China also imported some Russian radars including ZHUK Series radar and PERO passive phased array antenna.

Chinese J-8IIM fighter is the first one equipped with Russian ZHUK-8-2 radar. After the disintegration of the former Soviet Union, the development of ZHUK radar was not quite smoothly, and Russian Air Force did not use it. The ultimate success of ZHUK-M-type radar developed in 2002 ultimately is equipped with the Russian MiG-29SMT fighter and the Indian Navy’s MiG-29KUB fighter.

“Zhemchoug” radar is a light version of ZHUK-M radar with performance decreased. “Zhemchoug” radar actually was later than the time of the production of F-10 fighter. Chinese J-10 airborne radar is also different with “Zhemchoug” IFF antenna design, therefore J-10 has no relation with Russia “Zhemchoug” radar.

Through the combination of technology introduction and self-development, Chinese airborne radar has made a breakthrough in the beginning of 2000s, making significant progress in the field of antenna precision manufacturing and transmitter power density, brings a strong impetus to Chinese radar tactical and technical indicators. Chinese-made radar may learn some from Russian radar technology, but the Chinese fighter almost has no possibility of directly using Russian radar. Besides, China is also developing airborne active phased array radar.
Asian Defence News: Chinese KLJ-3 pulse Doppler fire control radar copied from Israeli technologies for "peaceful" rise

 

[Dazzler]

Chinese KLJ-3 pulse Doppler fire control radar copied from Israeli technologies for "peaceful" rise


View attachment 117117
Chinese KLJ-3 pulse Doppler fire control radar
The first step in the reverse engineering process is to import a couple of kits and then copy them part by part to final assembly.

Recently, Russian media reports that the Chinese J-10 fighter uses NIIR Phazotron Company’s Zhuk Zhemchoug airborne fire control radar. In fact, PLA Air force J-10 is equipped domestic KLJ-3 pulse Doppler fire control radar.

KLJ-3 radar is indeed the result of the introduction of foreign technology, but it is not from Russia, but Israel.

In 1986, J-10 fighter program started. When the Chinese Air Force dispatched pilots go to France to fly Mirage 2000 for evaluation, the Chinese pilots were impressed with Mirage-2000′s avionics and advanced cockpit display system. After the test in France, Pilot Ge Wenyong bluntly said that if counterpart Mirage 2000 pilots do not make mistakes, PLA Air Force J-7 and J-8 fighters have no chance of winning. But Chinese electronics industry was weak at 1980s, and it is difficult to meet the development requirements of the new combat aircraft. In this case, the Heads of Chinese military has determined to actively introduce advanced foreign technology, and push the the development of Chinese avionics industry.

In later 1980s, China began aviation technical cooperation with Israel, including the a full set of LAVI fighter avionics systems. LAVI’s original EL/M-2035 multifunction pulse Doppler fire control radar, which uses a phase parameters transmitter and multi-channel receiver, programmable signal processing system, look-down capacity as 46 km detection range. Its air-to-air modes include RWS (range-while-search), TWS (Track-While-Scan), dogfight, single target tracking; the air-to-ground modes include ranging, real beam mapping and Doppler beam sharpening. The radar has weights of 138 kg. However when the LAVI project ended, the development of EL/M-2035 was also cancelled.

Later, Israel improved EL/M-2035 improvements into EL/M-2032, which was displayed for the first time at the 1987 Paris Air Show. EL/M-2032 in aerial target designation mode has the maximum search distance to reach 150 km; in the air-to-sea mode detection range over 300 km. There have been reports that the Israeli Air Force are not satisfied with F-16I fighter AN/APG-68V-9 radar’s performance and hoped to replace by EL/M-2032 radar, but the United States refused. This also reflects high- performance EL/M-2032, rising as a threat to the U.S. radar.

The introduction of the LAVI aviation electronic systems in China, was known as the 873 avionics integrated system based on 1553B data bus, which was officially launched in 1989, began to conduct test flights in 1993. Other sub-systems including airborne radar, inertial navigation, mission computer display management sub-systems, air data computers, plug-in management system. The 873 project has laid a solid foundation for J-10 to reach full operational capability and greatly raise the R&D Level of Chinese aviation industry.

China imported a multi-Ministry EL/M-2032-radar airborne radar, on which China develops KLJ-3 radar. KLJ-3 uses a double mode grid controlled TWT transmitter, so that the radar is the equivalent of two transmitters, greatly improve the performance of the radar. KLJ-3 works by low operating ratio in the low PRF mode, but also work in high work than high PRF mode. It means KLJ-3 features with real multifunction performance.

The real specifications of KLJ-3 radar are still unknown, but we can deduce its performance by KLJ-7 radar.Pakistan Air Force JF-17 is equipped with KLJ-7 airborne pulse Doppler radar with maximum detection range of 130 km, TWS mode can simultaneously track 10 targets and simultaneously guided two SD-10A active radar-guided air-to-air missile attack two biggest threats. KLJ-7 also has ground moving target indication, synthetic aperture imaging and other advanced work mode, with a strong ground attack capability. KLJ-7 antenna aperture and power supply capacity is lower than the J-10′s KLJ-3, so you can imagine KLJ-3 has better tactical and technical indicators.
China started airborne radar cooperation with Russia at the beginning of 1990s. In addition to NO01E, NO01VE radar for supporting the Su-27SK, Su-30MKK fleets, China also imported some Russian radars including ZHUK Series radar and PERO passive phased array antenna.

Chinese J-8IIM fighter is the first one equipped with Russian ZHUK-8-2 radar. After the disintegration of the former Soviet Union, the development of ZHUK radar was not quite smoothly, and Russian Air Force did not use it. The ultimate success of ZHUK-M-type radar developed in 2002 ultimately is equipped with the Russian MiG-29SMT fighter and the Indian Navy’s MiG-29KUB fighter.

“Zhemchoug” radar is a light version of ZHUK-M radar with performance decreased. “Zhemchoug” radar actually was later than the time of the production of F-10 fighter. Chinese J-10 airborne radar is also different with “Zhemchoug” IFF antenna design, therefore J-10 has no relation with Russia “Zhemchoug” radar.

Through the combination of technology introduction and self-development, Chinese airborne radar has made a breakthrough in the beginning of 2000s, making significant progress in the field of antenna precision manufacturing and transmitter power density, brings a strong impetus to Chinese radar tactical and technical indicators. Chinese-made radar may learn some from Russian radar technology, but the Chinese fighter almost has no possibility of directly using Russian radar. Besides, China is also developing airborne active phased array radar.
Asian Defence News: Chinese KLJ-3 pulse Doppler fire control radar copied from Israeli technologies for "peaceful" rise

well, KLJ-7 a bit of mystery to be honest...here is why

* It has roots in RP-35, ELTA 2032, Grifo-S and some of China's own technology from atleast three institutes, moreso from NRIET 614 (J-10, J20, KJ-2000 AWACS) and WUXI 607 (JH-7A, J-8xx series radars etc)..

* It combines modes and ranges from all the above, with chinese (now pakistani circuit boards at KARF), a powerful yet efficient transmitter and signal processor..

* A very efficient SAR mode, i suspect ELTA here

* Search and detection range is more than what has been advertised for a fighter sized target, even aht was quoted in Kanwa article..

* And the most interesting feature is its robust anti jamming (EW) mode, even in dense electronic warfare and clutter environment. it seems to have the best of ELTA? and RP-35 combined with what NRIET had to offer..

 

[Basel]

btw. there are a lot more improvements inside and the block 3 is very very potent as far as I can judge. I think we can easily say that it is moving beyond the best we have now. Just wait three years and you will remind me what I said.

It means AESA is expected in block-3? will it be Chinese of Western one?

During wartime they will not get close if possible. And even then one needs to remember that even f16 with wing fueltank can do only 6+ G. The Flanker might be fuel monster and never needing fueltanks but it is still heavy... Don't expect it to do very much with full load...

Well said, a full loaded Flanker will not be as maneuverable as many Inidans think.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Munir I always read and enjoy your posts and have a lot of respect for your knowledge and professional manners. But I think we Pakistanis should stop using india as a bench mark for comparison, they really are not worthy of that status. We should look forward to other developing countries for comparison.

And what exactly are you guys doing? I rest my case. Call me a troll. You are without any knowledge.

 

[MastanKhan]

If you can make components that can handle higher temperature, more stresses etc We have better technology, materials and computing power then say 20 years ago...



During wartime they will not get close if possible. And even then one needs to remember that even f16 with wing fueltank can do only 6+ G. The Flanker might be fuel monster and never needing fueltanks but it is still heavy... Don't expect it to do very much with full load...

Munir,

Some times---the picture is right in front of our faces but we cannot see it----.

 

[Munir]

Munir,

Some times---the picture is right in front of our faces but we cannot see it----.

@MastaKhan, you do open the reality or Pandoras box more then a few times

As far as I can see the whole issue can be extremely simplified to make components that can handle higher temperatures. Higher temperature is more thrust... But it adds more complexity and higher costs in designing, manufacturing, installing, testing etc etc... If we would take an very old car engine from the past. Add ceramics, new turbo or digital controlled injection... I bet we can improve the good old engine.

 

[VCheng]

@MastaKhan, you do open the reality or Pandoras box more then a few times

As far as I can see the whole issue can be extremely simplified to make components that can handle higher temperatures. Higher temperature is more thrust... But it adds more complexity and higher costs in designing, manufacturing, installing, testing etc etc... If we would take an very old car engine from the past. Add ceramics, new turbo or digital controlled injection... I bet we can improve the good old engine.

Such improvements can only be done to a point and no further.

 

[MastanKhan]

Such improvements can only be done to a point and no further.

Hi,

A 10% increase would make a big difference---and a 20% increase in potency----which is doable---would be monstrous. I believe that 10% increment is already achieved---and the next target of 20% is already in the works---possibly getting close.

@Munir ---you know there has to be disagreement before you agree.

 

[VCheng]

Hi,

A 10% increase would make a big difference---and a 20% increase in potency----which is doable---would be monstrous. I believe that 10% increment is already achieved---and the next target of 20% is already in the works---possibly getting close.

@Munir ---you know there has to be disagreement before you agree.

I do not think that Klimov has left 10% unrealized power, let alone 20%, in its present design for China or Pakistan to realize with their level of expertise. A few percent improvement perhaps, but nothing in the double digits for sure.

 

[Donatello]

I do not think that Klimov has left 10% unrealized power, let alone 20%, in its present design for China or Pakistan to realize with their level of expertise. A few percent improvement perhaps, but nothing in the double digits for sure.

Yes it is very possible. Jet engine design inherently is very expandable. Sometimes you cannot push it to that ultimate level due to various reasons, primary being materials and their construction. You would be surprised to know how much a Jet engine can be improved upon. Take for example the Rolls Royce RB211 turbo fan, which spawned the Trent family powering anything from A330/A340 to A380/787 dreamliner, 40 years on from when the original engine was put to use.

 

[fatman17]

well, KLJ-7 a bit of mystery to be honest...here is why

* It has roots in RP-35, ELTA 2032, Grifo-S and some of China's own technology from atleast three institutes, moreso from NRIET 614 (J-10, J20, KJ-2000 AWACS) and WUXI 607 (JH-7A, J-8xx series radars etc)..

* It combines modes and ranges from all the above, with chinese (now pakistani circuit boards at KARF), a powerful yet efficient transmitter and signal processor..

* A very efficient SAR mode, i suspect ELTA here

* Search and detection range is more than what has been advertised for a fighter sized target, even aht was quoted in Kanwa article..

* And the most interesting feature is its robust anti jamming (EW) mode, even in dense electronic warfare and clutter environment. it seems to have the best of ELTA? and RP-35 combined with what NRIET had to offer..

PAF planners are very keen to have 'western avionics' available wherever possible, but in the case of the KLJ-7 they seem to be very confident in its performance, hence the investment in local assembly/production.

 

[Munir]

I agree (@MastanKhan ) that 10 to 20% sounds big but I do have to explain a little bit. The Russian engines were never meant to be sophisticated. Previous designs were made to fly a few hundred hours (Mig19) and then throw away. A mig19 was called a Farmer cause it was meant to be maintained by a farmer... This design philosophy is typical Russian. Rugged but expendable and simple. Now that design can be altered a lot more then the 10%. You can do a lot of new materials. You can add a lot more electronics. Just move away from the dirty fuel. So the 20% is do-able.

Russia is already done with the 20%. China did probably the same and just incorporated the parts.

Mushaq? You mean a license produced Saab Safari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
K-8? So China's Hongdu JL-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia now is developed by Pakistan too?
And of course JF-17. My views on this jet certainly can't be openly expressed on this forum with the same level of audacity as yours about Tejas or MOM (which btw is 1500kg).

Atleast those products are produced and used by many in big numbers. I do not say Pakistan developed these all alone... But Indians tend to think they do. Which is clearly not the reality.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Such improvements can only be done to a point and no further.

If such infinitely linear improvements were possible (as proposed by Munir) then the Model T Ford engine could have been tweaked to power the Lambhorghini Gallardo.........
@Mastan Khan; knowing automobiles as you do.....can that be done??

Even Frank Whittle's jet-engine will not be used to power a drone now.

 

[The SC]

If such infinitely linear improvements were possible (as proposed by Munir) then the Model T Ford engine could have been tweaked to power the Lambhorghini Gallardo.........
@Mastan Khan; knowing automobiles as you do.....can that be done??

Even Frank Whittle's jet-engine will not be used to power a drone now.

Well, it started with older than the ford engines and went up to the Lamborghini, Porsche engines, linearly.
Just improvements of materials and design on the same principle limited only by the physical laws of thermodynamics.

 

[Tempest II]

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/military-engines-russia-213591/

RD-33 upgrades
St Petersburg-based Klimov is focusing efforts on developing and upgrading the MiG-29's RD-33 turbofan and its offspring, the RD-93 for China's FC-1 single-engined fighter. A Chinese order for 100 RD-93s worth $270 million, with options for a further 400 engines, was signed in 2005. Klimov continues to work on extending the RD-93's TBO beyond the current figure of 600h.
In January Klimov signed a $250 million deal with India to set up licence production of 120 RD-33 Series 3 engines at HAL, for both new and refurbished MiG-29s. The upgraded RD-33s are scheduled to replace 18,000lb-thrust Series 1 and 2 engines.
The current production-standard RD-33MK selected for Indian navy MiG-29K/KUBs develops 20,000lb of thrust and has a 1,000h TBO. The engine has a wider-chord fan for 6% greater airflow, full-authority digital control, a new "multi-section" no-smoke combustor and three-dimensional aerodynamics in the turbine. In 2006, RSK MiG's Chernyshev plant assembled four RD-33MKs to support flight testing of the first twin-seat MiG-29KUB, which made its maiden flight in January.
Another application for the RD-33MK powerplant is the MiG-35 that MiG plans to offer for India's multi-role combat aircraft requirement. A further option is the RD-33MKV (for vectoring), which has the same thrust rating, but which is fitted with a Klimov swivelling nozzle. This is currently being tested on a MiG-29OVT technology demonstrator.
In April last year Klimov announced that it had begun design of a new engine for the LFI next-generation lightweight fighter being developed by MiG. Although MiG has yet to define all of its requirements for the engine, Klimov has said it will be an upgrade of the RD-33 with 25,300lb thrust, vectoring nozzle and modular design.

From the above, the increase from 18,000lb to 20,000lb is 11%. … … Ahh, but wait, there is talk of a 25,300lb RD-33? … … that is 47% increase. An increase from 600 hr to 1000 hrs is 67%. These are hard facts from the scientists, engineers, pilots and program managers in these projects.

Anyone got a history of specifications and upgrades of the GE F404/F414 family? How much (what percentage) has it increased by since its conception?

FC-1 with a 1:1.1 TWR was given by the test pilot of the plane 4 years ago. …. … The same figure has been officially released by yet another long standing pilot involved with the development of the plane for years.
We are being told the plane payload has increase by 3000lb. That is 1,360kg. You should have seen this increase coming when China released news of the 200% stress tests … … I did. Add the Original 3,600kg and you now have 4,960kg. … … Regardless of how we feel of the PAF (our enemy or not), they are not stupid to add 1,360kg IF the engine was already struggling.
… … Yet we still have individuals arguing here, who are far removed from the RD-33/RD-93 and the FC-1/JF-17, that the engine is underpowered and cannot be upgraded!
People follow/believe their bias regardless of the evidence!!!!