JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Beast]

When u talk things, u must back with data or not, you are talking rot and just a troll. Virtually cOming here to slander anything to damage pakistan and chInese credibilites.

MastanKhan, stop flying the Pakistan flag. You are not fit to. As I say, you are just a patient Indian troll hiding here for 7 years trying to spread rumour and false news. Anybody who are proud to be called Pakistanis will never say those kind of words.

 

[Manticore]

Hi,


You guys are not very intelligent people---you are extremely sharp when it comes to your own property and personal issues---but when it comes to the national level----you keep going around in circles----.

Sir , with due respect ,you always conveniently set yourself apart while talking about pakistanis-- our young generation inherited all these leaders thanks to the dishonesty/incompetence of our forefathers.. the ones who were capable to do something packed their bags and left the country for greener pastures and have no right to address us like this --- They should come back and lead us towards the goal of THE perfect pakistan -- while I agree with your posts most of the time , please take a second and think about the grievances the young generation has with your generation and I assure you they will far outway your woes. The hurdles we have in our path of progression are far far more then you had ever dreamt of in your youth.. and to say that we should instantly rise above and drastically change the corrupted system ,thrust upon us by our forefathers, in a country where there is no value of technocrats is simply not realistic -- so ,sir ,please stop the blame game as this is a never ending vicious cycle


Guys , this is not a political thread and neither would I like to instigate such discussions . I hope that we remain ontopic without humiliating , discouraging the young pakistanis by giving them a sense of hopelessness

 

[sancho]

...Pakistanis have no interest of their own in the wel being of their motherland----. Do you believe for a moment that any person who loves their motherland, would treat it as pakistan is being treated by them----

I hope you don't mind, but I think I am not in the position to talk about the mindset, the believes or other personal things of Pakistanis, that's why I stick to politics, defence or technical issues only and you might discuss the other part with Pakistani members.

Where I agree with you is, that PAF should have tried to aim higher than light class fighters, that's why I often stated here, that a partnership on J10 would have been way better than for JF 17, next to F16s. However, senior Pakistani members then told me, that China never offered that, only JF 17 partnership and that imo shows how the situation back then really was.

If not even China saw Pakistan as a partner for their higher end fighters, why should have western countries sold their high techs and weapons to a country that was under sanctions and from their point of view back then, (just like India) a non legal nuclear powered 3rd world country?

So with that in mind, which fighters were really available for Pakistan after 9/11? Rafale and EF wasn't as mentioned before and just because PAF had asked Dassault for infos of Rafale later, doesn't mean France would have sold them, let alone PAF could have procured them in useful numbers. Apperently neither J10 (as a partnership) or J11 (as a procurement) were available from China, the US sanctions and not open policies towards Pakistan clearly were a problem too, which can be proven by the fact, that they didn't offered better fighters to PAF than F16 Block 52s and even those with limited weapon configs only.

Were F18SH with AESA available?
Were F15s available?
Were at least F16 Block 60 via the close political relations of Pakistan to UAE available?

The answer to all this is no and that makes Gripen or Mirage 2000s to the only alternative western fighters that might have been procured which both are pretty much in the F16 class and far away from what you think PAF could have bought.
Only because Pakistan might had the money back than like you say, it doesn't mean that all the countries would have sold PAF the weapons and techs they wanted.

Yes---JF17 is sanction proof---so why don't you go and tell your su30mki pilots and order them to give it a handicap when in combat---.

By the same logic, IAF Mig 21 Bisons, 27 UPG and Jaguar UPG pilots must ask JF 17 pilots to give a handicap as well, because they are clearly inferior to a propper 4th gen fighter like JF 17 right?
The point is, good numbers of JF 17 gives PAF a capable low end base, with more capable F16s and J10s above them. Adding lower numbers of Gripen instead, would have made PAF more dependent on the US and would not added much more capability to PAF to be equal to MKI or IAF in general. As mentioned, the addition of AWACS is much more important to counter MKI or IAF, than any fighter addition.

 

[Farooqi1]

Sir,

Address me directly like a man----don't wing it. How do you know we would not have gotten any aircraft that we wanted---when everybody knew we were in desperate need of an aircraft---we had the cash at hand----the u s had given us an open invitation to get whatever we wanted---.

And don't put your 2 cents in it---talk with confidence---when you put your 2 cents in it----seems like you don't know what you are talking about---. Off course I mind---I mind when you don't have confidence and conviction behind your statement

After I read your comments----seems like you have not read a single world of what I wrote---.


Mr. Khan

You are an arrogant person full of yourself. Apparently you have the play book of both IAF and PAF right in front of you. I must admit I don't have this luxury. Also I must admit that I don't have access to some websites from which you are getting your information. Well anyway let me say it with conviction. JF-17 is a good Platform to build on. Nobody will stop us from improving it unless we screw up in our relationship with China. And let me say it with confidence and conviction that at this very moment the only vulnerability we have against IAF is MKI. And I am sure PAF is not that stupid as you are trying to portray in your various threads, and they must have a plan to counter the threat of MKI.

Please listen to various other forum members and stop flying our flag, because not only you are arrogant and disrespectful also you are spreading false rumors around. And I don't give it a damn weather you mind or not.

 

[MastanKhan]

LOL.. You are trying to compare diary product with a high tech aeronautical industries as a benchmark?? LOL.. And you are picking on a few particular cases to propel yr agenda. They are plenty of quality product from China which you choose to ignore. China space rocket has not a single mishap of rocket blow up in the sky in last 15 years and the recent docking of space lab is an testiment of the precise and quality of Chinese high tech product. You need very precise calculation and quick real time date footage to achieve a perfect docking few 10000 over miles away from earth.

Seriously, in USA. The media is nothing but smearing the reputation of China. You can see the American keeps barking about inferior product of CHina but when you looks at data. USA is nothing but keeps importing more stuff from China. Walmart is still 90% depend on import of CHina products. Now are we going to listen to a pakistanis living in US, poison by them for its comment? If the China product are so inferior and unsafe why still importing in large numbers? This double headed snake thing is always champion by the american to show their hypocrisy...

I seriously urge all loyal pakistanis in this forum to ignore yr comment. As I say one blind will to more blind. I smell you are starting a smearing campaign.

With Pakistan economic in a not so good stage, the last thing this traitor or blinds want to do is to take away the credit of your military advantage /advancement which is sometime any Pakistanis can still be proud of.

Hi,

I agree to all that you have said about chinese space program ( with some reservations )---but the bottomline still is that fighter aircraft engine of the calibre of the one in F 16 BLK 52 with same life span is about 10---15 + years away for china---maybe 25 years.

See---you have started mixing things up---fighter aircraft are a different breed than space ships----even russia---which is way ahead of china in space technology and possibly closer to the u s----still doe not have a single engine to compete with the performance and life cycle of an F 16 engine----.

But---good try on your part in trying to wing it---.

 

[ziaulislam]

we still come back to the same place..people still think that chinese are 25 years behind from US..the place where chinese are worst in is metallurgary and engine yet very few expert will say that they 25 years behind even in this field..most will agree 10-15 years of catch up in this field..infact most of experts believe that in avionics chinese are better than Russians..one of the reasons why chinese refused to use russain avionics on their j-11 fighters nearly a decade ago..with the pace they a re moving a decade for Chinese is two decades for any other country

 

[MastanKhan]

Were F18SH with AESA available?
Were F15s available?
Were at least F16 Block 60 via the close political relations of Pakistan to UAE available?

The answer to all this is no and that makes Gripen or Mirage 2000s to the only alternative western fighters that might have been procured which both are pretty much in the F16 class and far away from what you think PAF could have bought.
Only because Pakistan might had the money back than like you say, it doesn't mean that all the countries would have sold PAF the weapons and techs they wanted.




By the same logic, IAF Mig 21 Bisons, 27 UPG and Jaguar UPG pilots must ask JF 17 pilots to give a handicap as well, because they are clearly inferior to a propper 4th gen fighter like JF 17 right?
The point is, good numbers of JF 17 gives PAF a capable low end base, with more capable F16s and J10s above them. Adding lower numbers of Gripen instead, would have made PAF more dependent on the US and would not added much more capability to PAF to be equal to MKI or IAF in general. As mentioned, the addition of AWACS is much more important to counter MKI or IAF, than any fighter addition.

Hi,

F 18 F16 blk 52 F 15 were available to pakistan without aesa----. Buddy---when you get a girl that you want to have a relationship with or a guy---you don't try to pull the pants down on the first date---. You first develop a sincere lovers relationship---sharing and caring---and then the rest of the stuff follows thru.

I would rather have the frontline air to air missiles from the u s than the aesa---rather than nothing.

As for the aircraft---pakistan should have insisted about the aircraft right from day one---the deal should have been----so many bases in exchange for so many aircraft---.

You people can't understand it---generals are very poor deal negotiators---they are have very poor skills of bargaining.

These only and only 18 blk 52's we have with aim 120---and the mlu's coming in---it has totally changed the air to air combat in the sub continent---. IAF cannot fly around freely in our airspace anymore.

we still come back to the same place..people still think that chinese are 25 years behind from US..the place where chinese are worst in is metallurgary and engine yet very few expert will say that they 25 years behind even in this field..most will agree 10-15 years of catch up in this field..infact most of experts believe that in avionics chinese are better than Russians..one of the reasons why chinese refused to use russain avionics on their j-11 fighters nearly a decade ago..with the pace they a re moving a decade for Chinese is two decades for any other country

Stop being -------. Chor nalun pandh kahli-----

 

[Pfpilot]

Two points sir,

1. YES.. PAF did close the technical gap viz-a-viz IAF during the last decade. BVR, IFR, AWACS, New SAM system, Block 52s etc... in 90's we were simply no where near this.

2. PAF did got it dead right when they accepted the idea that while the current ability to counter the Indian threat is limited and a domestic fighter will provide a greater dividends in the future... reason ... Because it is not a static project and would evolve over the time as all the legendary fighters did in the past. Just be patient... being on the various forums i remember the times when our Indians friends (read foes) were used to make fun of this project and capabilities of Chinese aviation industry before 2003 and then they received their shut up call so loudly that within four years they were planning MMRCA thing. I sometimes wounder why people make conclusions on assumptions. We did made a blunder by not buying Mirage-2000 in 1990s and that's it.. I just cannot agree that previous decade was a lost one as far as PAF is concerned as it was during this decade when PAF got all that capabilities (which it didn't have previously) which i mentioned in point 1. ... I agree that IAF did increased numbers of their high tech squadrons and that is real issue but it has nothing to do with PAF ... It has everything to do with Pakistan's economy and imbalanced foreign policy over the last six decades which has turned this country into a client of US. Once economy got better , numbers will be no issue... Rest assure, US or India wouldn't attack us as they are winning without fighting due to dozens of other reasons and tactics.

Your points are totally valid, I only disagree in relation to the relative strength of both forces. PAF has increased its capabilities greatly over the last decade due to the peripheral purchases you mentioned. But the IAF has done so at an even greater rate. The economy, quite rightly is not there, but in a war, we cannot stop an Indian advance simply by telling them to hold off for a few years, till our economy recovers. Wars are fought in the moment, future capabilities and economic and political excuses will be unable to prevent a defeat. The IAF strength is growing almost exponentially in relation to our capabilities.

By the time, the jf-17 can boast the capabilities that put it in elite company, the IAF Rafales will be in service and their su-30mkis greatly upgraded. For us, even the fc-20 is not assured due to a shortage of funds. Once again, the problem is not that we are not progressing, but that the IAF is doing so at a quicker rate. The medium term state of the economy does not leave us much choice at this point, but when that small window of opportunity opened, we may have been able to better utilize it.

Many respectable members have often proclaimed that the jf-17 is not supposed to be our high end fighter, but when fighting on the defensive, it is going to often come down to the Thunder taking on superior air superiority fighters...we don't have the strategic depth of India, that would allow us to expose certain fighters to certain situations.

I may, in the end, be completely off base here (I hope that is the case), but with my limited knowledge, it just doesn't seem as if the jf-17 can give us the required punch to blunt not only an Indian advance, but curtail even the planning of any such adventure.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Rafales for Pakistan???
Are you sure. It is highly doubtable if Pakistan's small little economy can afford F-16's and you want Rafales that too only 1 or 2 sqdn. Things don't work that way in real life. An airforce like the Pakistan doesn't just go on buying only a sqdn. or 2 of some aircraft. Also, not only the cost of Rafale but also it's maintanence, weapons package, spares are way beyond your budget.
F-18's would have been a better choice but Uncle wouldn't have paid for it.

Hello much has been discussed, I will end short, How much would 36 Rafales cost not more than $4.8B, how much is spent on Total 60-63 F-16s $5.1B do the maths and all members, you may include alil more...Kill two birds with a stone, all 30-40 inventory F-16s massive upgrades+Amraams and 28-32 Rafales. Have you people read the list of weapons Pakistan purchased procured since 2001, where do you think that money came from, fooling around thailand can/is operating gripen-south africa, hungry can operate gripen and we tell oursleves and the rest the technology is beyond anything we can handle. PAF did something similar as in 90s thankyou musharraf for lost opportunity if not lost decade, today Rafale would have been out of mrca along with vipers.

 

[Storm Force]

Rafale F3 version IS FAR superior platform to anything in the PAF today and in the near future AND indeed the CURRENT IAF.

LUFTWAFFE is correct had PAF taken the plunge with rafale x 36 iaf would be stuck with a OVER EXPENSIVE TYPHOON which is only good in air supremacy or the Russian MIG35...

Instead despite EADS best attempts to bring TYPHOON BACK into MMRCA the indians have laid their mast on 126 X F3 rafales.

An RBE2 aesa equipped F3 RAFALE is equal to 2 or 3 block 52s especially since they can carry 8 mica/meteore bvrs with a 5th generation spectra EW suite. AND a much lower RCS....

if i,m honest i cant think of a better multi role platform than RAFALE F3 for paf today.

Even F35 come with watered down technology and MASSIVE usa strings.

(I KNOW THIS THREAD IS ABOUT PAF and the JFT but you have to admit the indians have made the perfect selection in rafale f3 rather than legacy teens or the options on the table which included F35 from 2017 )

 

[Storm Force]

PS the JFT is stil the perfect choice for PAF in sqdn filling in large nos and future upgrade at your pace with your technology and no sanctions issues.

WHERE THE PROBLEM lies and the point Mastan Khan and others are pointing out is HOW DO PAF add the TOP TIER of high teh cutting edge technology to the air force which can make the difference when it matters.

IN OTHER WORDS where is PAF F22 raptor equivalent

eg for IAF su30mki will be their mainstay fighter (270 fighters) versis JFT mainstay for PAF

BUT

IAF high tech end has been chosen has rafale f3 NOW PAF must find the suitable answer to this threat.

PS

64 F16s is not the long term answer

 

[danger007]

JF-17 will enter into war theater along with F-16....lets say 3JF-17 and 2 F-16 + SAMs.....will able to minimise the superiority of su-30mki along,mirage-2K or mig-29.... When MKI is modified for brahmos......the war theatre will be completely changes..... The main role for MKI would be smash all the ground systems and sam....as the range is 290 km....it could fire 50km to 100km inside of Indian territory..... As PAF role is defensive purpose it could minimise, if offensive role......

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Gentlemen---thank you for your posts---most of the members think that I come here to argue with them or put them down---insult their dear JF17 and I would like to clear it one more time----I don't . I share my views with what I know and how I understand the situation. You may not agree with it---you will bash me and challenge my integrity and I don't give a hoot about it.

As a pakistani, it is my right---to analyze the situation and write how I see it. You people are still at that stage of your life---where what your DAD or your Dada Abba says is the holy truth---I care for neither one of them and neither did I when I was younger---. You believe in the status quo---you have heroes and you put them on pedastals---I am saying that they are mare mortals.

Jf 17 is similiar to what israel did with Levi---. Pakistan and israel were in the similiar situation----fear of sanctions---unpredictability, a un-ending sense of insecurity----. They were talked to and made to see the light----. If the jews had lived with their egos riding high---they would have disappeared from the face of the earth a thousand years ago---they understood their shortcomings---swallowed their pride and made the right choice.

Pakistan---a carbon copy of israel---similiar situation---similiar circumstances---but too much pride and too much honor at stake---.

The jf 17 is a great project if you want to keep on fighting with india----but to make a peace deal the need was for something kind of 'right in your face'.

 

[TAC]

Hi,

Gentlemen---thank you for your posts---most of the members think that I come here to argue with them or put them down---insult their dear JF17 and I would like to clear it one more time----I don't . I share my views with what I know and how I understand the situation. You may not agree with it---you will bash me and challenge my integrity and I don't give a hoot about it.

As a pakistani, it is my right---to analyze the situation and write how I see it. You people are still at that stage of your life---where what your DAD or your Dada Abba says is the holy truth---I care for neither one of them and neither did I when I was younger---. You believe in the status quo---you have heroes and you put them on pedastals---I am saying that they are mare mortals.

Jf 17 is similiar to what israel did with Levi---. Pakistan and israel were in the similiar situation----fear of sanctions---unpredictability, a un-ending sense of insecurity----. They were talked to and made to see the light----. If the jews had lived with their egos riding high---they would have disappeared from the face of the earth a thousand years ago---they understood their shortcomings---swallowed their pride and made the right choice.

Pakistan---a carbon copy of israel---similiar situation---similiar circumstances---but too much pride and too much honor at stake---.

The jf 17 is a great project if you want to keep on fighting with india----but to make a peace deal the need was for something kind of 'right in your face'.

If you make sweeping nonesense statements which you have -- such as 1. Pakistanis don't have the balls to talk to white folk, 2.Pakistanis lack intelligence, 3.all Pakistanis on this forum just take their dad and or dada abus word as fact apart from you, 4.Pakistan had so much money after 9/11 that it didn't know where to spend it, 5. Pakistan was stupid to miss the chance to pick up 3 squadrons of Rafales or F-18's within 2 years of 9/11 ----- you should expect people to question your 'itegrity, perhaps even your sanity - whether you give a hoot or not.

 

[Edevelop]

If you make sweeping nonesense statements which you have -- such as 1. Pakistanis don't have the balls to talk to white folk, 2.Pakistanis lack intelligence, 3.all Pakistanis on this forum just take their dad and or dada abus word as fact apart from you, 4.Pakistan had so much money after 9/11 that it didn't know where to spend it, 5. Pakistan was stupid to miss the chance to pick up 3 squadrons of Rafales or F-18's within 2 years of 9/11 ----- you should expect people to question your 'itegrity, perhaps even your sanity - whether you give a hoot or not.

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