JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Dazzler]

A factual post,

But Mastan jee wanted to show us that if PAF had bought the European Fighters.....Typhoon, Mirage 2000s or Rafale, like 10 years ago when Pakistan was fresh of an ally in war on terror, then we could have negotiated peace with India long time ago.

If we go back in time and see that India averaged 6% growth all those 10 years upto 2012, then We could have used our firepower as a deterrence. We could have negotiated peace with India and focused our resources on things of higher priority.

In 2001, India didn't have all those Mig 29 SMTs or upgraded Mirage 2000 or the new SU30MKI. Rafale or Typhoon in the hands of PAF would have made a difference.

Now they are much stronger military and economic wise. I think that is what he meant, which seems like a valid point.

JF-17 still has years to mature and our geo-strategic position is as fragile as ever!

Fragility is what we inherited when we got independence, just a year later, the fragility raised her head so this is nothing new. Every era saw its share of hazards for either country, sometimes they had an edge, other times we did. We have been living and will live in the same way but JFT is the right step in the right direction. It is a stability factor for PAF, it has increased their moral quite a lot. They talk about it with confidence when they say, "we are improving and sharpening our edges to cut them deep". PAF today, is a force to reckon with. FC-20 will improve this edge at least twice.

 

[MastanKhan]

A factual post,

But Mastan jee wanted to show us that if PAF had bought the European Fighters.....Typhoon, Mirage 2000s or Rafale, like 10 years ago when Pakistan was fresh of an ally in war on terror, then we could have negotiated peace with India long time ago.

If we go back in time and see that India averaged 6% growth all those 10 years upto 2012, then We could have used our firepower as a deterrence. We could have negotiated peace with India and focused our resources on things of higher priority.

In 2001, India didn't have all those Mig 29 SMTs or upgraded Mirage 2000 or the new SU30MKI. Rafale or Typhoon in the hands of PAF would have made a difference.

Now they are much stronger military and economic wise. I think that is what he meant, which seems like a valid point.

JF-17 still has years to mature and our geo-strategic position is as fragile as ever!

Hi,

Thank you again---pakistan fckued up so bad after 9/11-----it was totally clueless---. Banks were over flowing with dollars at that time---govt had so much cash---it did not know what to do----.

Pakistani millitary machine still has not understood how to counter indian mindset---they have been absolutely clueless---. The heirarchy are arrogant and in their arrogance---they have failed the nation again and again---.

2 to 3 sqdrn's of F18's or Rafales within 2 years after 9/11---keeping a pro-active approach and eye on terrorist organization against spoiling peace deal with india---killing OBL at Tora Bora---today we would have been a different pakistan.

 

[MastanKhan]

Good debate between MASTER KHAN and other side. BOTH SIDES HAVE GOOD POINTS.

OTHER SIDE pro JFT = Only realistic sanction free option to replace 200 aging mirage ,,,a5 fighters within budget and timecale and ability to add and improve system as per PAF demands.

massive upgrade on BVR capability....


MASTER KHAN.... PAF should have invested earlier and heavier in mirage2000 or gripen deemed to more mature combat ready platforms capable of handling anything IAF throws at PAF including su30mki today. AND this would have avoided spending billions $$$ on a F16 programme which is sanction threatened today and in the future if PAF threatens USA interests which includes war against NEW found friend the indians.


ultimately Master khan feels that a PAF made up of 70% combat fleet of JFT block 12& 3 ie (250 thunders from 400 fighters) may not be sufficient to face off against upgraded mature su30mki mirage2000-5 rafale & LCA ...

But zia is correct in that chinease techoology has nearly caught up on the west BUT how much of china,s cutting edge tech has china provided in jft programme.

OR should we say HOW MUCH has PAF spent in getting chinease best technology ???

Hi,

Like I always say---if a major weapons system does not bring you close to peace with your enemy---it is worthless---. Its procurement has not served its purpose----.

With JF 17----it has brought you closer to war than you want to be---you think your aircraft will take on enemy's larger and more sophisticated aircraft---the enemy says---my superior aircraft will smash your little bird---. You get pis-sed off----the enemy gets infuriated---it is a bad recipe to star a war----.

So, instead of making peace----you both want to duke it out, because both your egos are hurt bad---. The enemy says---what the fcuk with this little tu-rd---and you say---the bigger you are---the harder you fall---the enemy says yeah---let me tell you how it is done---and gives you a whack and smashes you to kingdom come---.

 

[sachin@india]

Hi,

Wallah---my indian brethren are getting in the same line as my pakistani brethren----. It was not the cost that was the determing factor----it was the quality behind the name----cost was an illusion.

Seems like you don't have children---otherwise you would know what kind of junk medicine, children's powder milk tainted with vehicle anti freeze, children products tainted with lead come out of china.

Have you even owned a saab or a volvo---if not---you would not know and understand their quality---and the engineering behind their design. Pakistan had access to every aircraft after 9/11 except for su30 / mig 29 F 35 F22.

It is not a matter of being good or bad for the JF17----it is a matter of another 10 years being lost by paf---and what do they have---nothing better.

With the chinese product---you are the GUINEA PIG---. Now as you have spent so much time, energy and resource on this product, you are partial to hear any objections against it---so much of your pride and ego is mounted on its success---that just to save your faces---you will not admit to any flaws and shortcomings in the system----you would rather destroy the country---than betray your ego and face the shame.

If americans are fishing pakistan, then pakistan can fish america as well---but they need to do a better job than what they are doing. When the pakistanis learn to do it with a " smile " on their faces, they will find out that they can manipulate the situation to their advantage a lot more than they did before.

It was not the 'costly' medicine---but the standard of quality of medicine in every vial that is the HALLMARK of swedish technology---when you pay for something swedish---you can buy it with your eyes closed with just the simple trust that the product will out perform what it promised---.

First time weapons systems or any machinery has a lots of growing pains---you don't want to bet your future on it.

wonderfully summarize sir.... most of the time you have to pay premium to buy premium products..

the performance and capabilities of a aircraft should be measure in relative terms...

 

[Donatello]

Hi,

Thank you again---pakistan fckued up so bad after 9/11-----it was totally clueless---. Banks were over flowing with dollars at that time---govt had so much cash---it did not know what to do----.

Pakistani millitary machine still has not understood how to counter indian mindset---they have been absolutely clueless---. The heirarchy are arrogant and in their arrogance---they have failed the nation again and again---.

2 to 3 sqdrn's of F18's or Rafales within 2 years after 9/11---keeping a pro-active approach and eye on terrorist organization against spoiling peace deal with india---killing OBL at Tora Bora---today we would have been a different pakistan.

....that is the result of Military making foreign policy instead of security policy of the country for 40 years!

 

[Areesh]

A factual post,

But Mastan jee wanted to show us that if PAF had bought the European Fighters.....Typhoon, Mirage 2000s or Rafale, like 10 years ago when Pakistan was fresh of an ally in war on terror, then we could have negotiated peace with India long time ago.

If we go back in time and see that India averaged 6% growth all those 10 years upto 2012, then We could have used our firepower as a deterrence. We could have negotiated peace with India and focused our resources on things of higher priority.

In 2001, India didn't have all those Mig 29 SMTs or upgraded Mirage 2000 or the new SU30MKI. Rafale or Typhoon in the hands of PAF would have made a difference.

Now they are much stronger military and economic wise. I think that is what he meant, which seems like a valid point.

JF-17 still has years to mature and our geo-strategic position is as fragile as ever!

Wishful thinking nothing else. Wonder how would have Pakistan negotiated peace on it's terms with these sanctions prone aircraft.

It is also a wishful thinking that Pakistan would have got these aircraft if Pakistan asked for them.

 

[raavan]

From the Iron Curtain to the Soft Democracy, every developed country had to start from somewhere and i believe PAF made the right choice by going with a project of their own which has given them something to play with. I discussed the same point before and i say it again. American F-22, 18, 16, 15, 14, 111 etc, all were gradually developed over a span of 70+ years after the WW2. German scientists were leaps and bounds ahead during the WW2 over their British, French, Swedish, Swiss and US counterparts in terms of technological know how and other advanced scientific expertise.

No wonder, after the demise of Hitler and Nazis, they were taken as chunks after chunks, to USSR, US, Brits and European nations. History tells us how humble were the beginnings of today's advanced military technology, particularly, the military aviation. Gripen has roots in Draken, Raptor's ancestor is F-86, Eurofighter opened eyes after EE lightening, Gnat were long gone. The point is, where PAF is standing today with its JFT blk 1, is where the Americans were with their Blk 40/42 F-16s back in 90s, our's has an advantage in EW and avionics particularly cockpit ergonomics and radar over the former. I do not see how we went 10 years back by developing our own fighter that can be, and is being developed in to a way more advanced fighter the any Gripen versions and other rivals, but that will happen in due time and when the need is felt. We today, are not bogged down like we were 20 years ago when PAF had to upgrade Mirages when the world was retiring them, only to gain a little night attack capability. PAF has to pick what was thrown by manufacturers (export versions) what suited its immediate requirements. Americans didnt give us LANTIRN pods, as a replacement, we had to buy Atlis II day only targeting/ navigation pods to complement our fleet. We never had a toy that we could develop, modify, improve all on our own. The day is not too far when we will see advanced versions, dedicated EW or attack versions (already developed in china) and radical RCS reduction technology applied on some version under use by PAF. Now, which of the western aircraft we could get with such flexibility? None.

there is difference between going 10 years back and being 10 years behind....PAF certainly did not go back 10 years by investing in JFT but just like India PAF underestimated the scale of developing a high class product ..... this has left PAF 10 years behind coz India enjoys the luxury of buying a SU-30 and convert them into MKIs until PAK-FA/MCA/LCA takes off ..whereas Pakistan has no such option as was demonstrated with avionics from French

 

[sancho]

2 to 3 sqdrn's of F18's or Rafales within 2 years after 9/11---keeping a pro-active approach and eye on terrorist organization against spoiling peace deal with india---killing OBL at Tora Bora---today we would have been a different pakistan.

Aren't you missing many important points here? In 2001 Pakistan and India were under US sanctions which was the cause why additional F16s couldn't been bought afaik. Also Rafale was just in induction in a similar premature stage as JF 17 now, while EF was not availble back then even in their own forces.
JF 17s main advantage is, that it is sanction prove and offers your own industry bigger advantages that the simple assembly or limited licence production of foreign fighters.
Besides that, the best decision PAF made was not any fighter procurement, but the addition of strategic aircrafts like tankers and more importantly AWACS. These addition in times where IAF suffers from delays in modernisation and indigenous developments + the increasing threat from China, PAF has changed the game by far. You just need to compare PAF and IAF in 1999 and today and you will see that PAF has dramatically catched up in capability, while IAF has made only small steps forward and is splitting their forces today way more than earlier. The faster pace of JF 17 replacing older single role fighters, compared to LCA is also a big advantage, even though it is only at the low end. PAF will always have the inferior aircrafts when you compare them 1 on 1, but as an airforce they have made good progress!

 

[MastanKhan]

Sancho,

Sanctions mean that---I am stupid---I am an idiot---I am an imbecile---I am thick headed---I have learning disabilities---I cannot think on my feet---I have still not understood the game as it is being played---I am going to do the same old mistakes again and again---I have learnt nothing from the past---I am not going to learn anything in the future as well---that is the short end of sanctions---.

The day the phone call came to Musharraf from George Bush----sanctions were technically gone----. If the pakistanis had any intellect---any common sense---a tad bit of intelligence----they would have joined together as one---because they would have known that at that time, it was their moment in history---.


But as I stated before they are the cleverest of clever---can count the feathers of a flying sparrow---but can't do sh-it when it comes to the welfare and wel-being of pakistan.

Why was there a talk of sanctions from day one---if you look at the last ten years---there is only one and only one entity at fault---and that is 'pakistan'.

Pakistanis have no interest of their own in the wel being of their motherland----. Do you believe for a moment that any person who loves their motherland, would treat it as pakistan is being treated by them----.

Yes---JF17 is sanction proof---so why don't you go and tell your su30mki pilots and order them to give it a handicap when in combat---.

Replacing the older aircraft with jf17 is no issue with me---it is a wonderful decision---but not getting an aircraft better than the F16 is the issue----a 100 + blk 52's + MLU's would have done the job as well.

PAF stopped the purchase of such an aircraft before 2005----because it analyzed that pak and india were closer to a peace deal, so it was not worth spending 3 billon dollars---. That is what my beef is.

PAF was playing games with sweden over the grippen and they were playing games with france over rafale----but grippen was the real teaser.

 

[Farooqi1]

Aren't you missing many important points here? In 2001 Pakistan and India were under US sanctions which was the cause why additional F16s couldn't been bought afaik. Also Rafale was just in induction in a similar premature stage as JF 17 now, while EF was not availble back then even in their own forces.
JF 17s main advantage is, that it is sanction prove and offers your own industry bigger advantages that the simple assembly or limited licence production of foreign fighters.
Besides that, the best decision PAF made was not any fighter procurement, but the addition of strategic aircrafts like tankers and more importantly AWACS. These addition in times where IAF suffers from delays in modernisation and indigenous developments + the increasing threat from China, PAF has changed the game by far. You just need to compare PAF and IAF in 1999 and today and you will see that PAF has dramatically catched up in capability, while IAF has made only small steps forward and is splitting their forces today way more than earlier. The faster pace of JF 17 replacing older single role fighters, compared to LCA is also a big advantage, even though it is only at the low end. PAF will always have the inferior aircrafts when you compare them 1 on 1, but as an airforce they have made good progress!

I am a new member and I hope nobody would mind my $.02 in this especially Mr. Khan . I agree with Mr. Sancho. In JF-17 at least we have a platform on which we can build on and it is sanction proof (unless our politicians screw up big time and make China mad) . There was no way we would have gotten those European planes, they would not have sold it to us other then Mirage 2000. PAF did the good thing in investing in force multipliers like tankers and AWACS. I have noticed that some how Mr. khan has a thing against Jf-17.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Sancho,

Sanctions mean that---I am stupid---I am an idiot---I am an imbecile---I am thick headed---I have learning disabilities---I cannot think on my feet---I have still not understood the game as it is being played---I am going to do the same old mistakes again and again---I have learnt nothing from the past---I am not going to learn anything in the future as well---that is the short end of sanctions---.

The day the phone call came to Musharraf from George Bush----sanctions were technically gone----. If the pakistanis had any intellect---any common sense---a tad bit of intelligence----they would have joined together as one---because they would have known that at that time, it was their moment in history---.


But as I stated before they are the cleverest of clever---can count the feathers of a flying sparrow---but can't do sh-it when it comes to the welfare and wel-being of pakistan.

Why was there a talk of sanctions from day one---if you look at the last ten years---there is only one and only one entity at fault---and that is 'pakistan'.

Pakistanis have no interest of their own in the wel being of their motherland----. Do you believe for a moment that any person who loves their motherland, would treat it as pakistan is being treated by them----.

Yes---JF17 is sanction proof---so why don't you go and tell your su30mki pilots and order them to give it a handicap when in combat---.

Replacing the older aircraft with jf17 is no issue with me---it is a wonderful decision---but not getting an aircraft better than the F16 is the issue----a 100 + blk 52's + MLU's would have done the job as well.

PAF stopped the purchase of such an aircraft before 2005----because it analyzed that pak and india were closer to a peace deal, so it was not worth spending 3 billon dollars---. That is what my beef is.

PAF was playing games with sweden over the grippen and they were playing games with france over rafale----but grippen was the real teaser.

In 2005 we also suffered a massive earthquake.. we had our priorities... and we did buy the 18 F-16s with tht 3.5 billion ur talkin abt... as for grippen ... we already have JF-17 which is on par with it... now sir do enlighten me why shouldnt we have started the JFT project? what good would have come out of it? nothin except a few more jets? atleast now thanks to this project we have the technical know-how of aviation... a small aviation industry... and a platform which isnt sanction prone and we have the liberty to modify or enhance its abilities according to our own wish...... the sanctions were gone when bush called mush... but did he write an affidavit tht from 2002 onwards USA wont sanction Pakistan? heck even today they can slap a billion sanctions on us and our beloved F-16 would have to be more or less useless in a matter of time.... depending on the availablity of the spares.....Jts and aviation industry isnt created or built in a day or two.. it takes years,decades of hard work to get the fruit..... every country had to start from somewhere........ We started by building parts,mushaks,K-8s and now JF-17... thts a big step for a developing country...... Hope u get my drift.

 

[Donatello]

Sancho,

Sanctions mean that---I am stupid---I am an idiot---I am an imbecile---I am thick headed---I have learning disabilities---I cannot think on my feet---I have still not understood the game as it is being played---I am going to do the same old mistakes again and again---I have learnt nothing from the past---I am not going to learn anything in the future as well---that is the short end of sanctions---.

The day the phone call came to Musharraf from George Bush----sanctions were technically gone----. If the pakistanis had any intellect---any common sense---a tad bit of intelligence----they would have joined together as one---because they would have known that at that time, it was their moment in history---.


But as I stated before they are the cleverest of clever---can count the feathers of a flying sparrow---but can't do sh-it when it comes to the welfare and wel-being of pakistan.

Why was there a talk of sanctions from day one---if you look at the last ten years---there is only one and only one entity at fault---and that is 'pakistan'.

Pakistanis have no interest of their own in the wel being of their motherland----. Do you believe for a moment that any person who loves their motherland, would treat it as pakistan is being treated by them----.

Yes---JF17 is sanction proof---so why don't you go and tell your su30mki pilots and order them to give it a handicap when in combat---.

Replacing the older aircraft with jf17 is no issue with me---it is a wonderful decision---but not getting an aircraft better than the F16 is the issue----a 100 + blk 52's + MLU's would have done the job as well.

PAF stopped the purchase of such an aircraft before 2005----because it analyzed that pak and india were closer to a peace deal, so it was not worth spending 3 billon dollars---. That is what my beef is.

PAF was playing games with sweden over the grippen and they were playing games with france over rafale----but grippen was the real teaser.

I am not sure if PAF was interested in the Gripen as a plane itself or just it's capabilities! I mean, JF-17 has startling resemblance to Gripen, so my intuition says PAF was evaluating it at the time to quietly pass on the intricacies, what they could, to the Chengdu Design bureau!!

 

[Donatello]

In 2005 we also suffered a massive earthquake.. we had our priorities... and we did buy the 18 F-16s with tht 3.5 billion ur talkin abt... as for grippen ... we already have JF-17 which is on par with it... now sir do enlighten me why shouldnt we have started the JFT project? what good would have come out of it? nothin except a few more jets? atleast now thanks to this project we have the technical know-how of aviation... a small aviation industry... and a platform which isnt sanction prone and we have the liberty to modify or enhance its abilities according to our own wish...... the sanctions were gone when bush called mush... but did he write an affidavit tht from 2002 onwards USA wont sanction Pakistan? heck even today they can slap a billion sanctions on us and our beloved F-16 would have to be more or less useless in a matter of time.... depending on the availablity of the spares.....Jts and aviation industry isnt created or built in a day or two.. it takes years,decades of hard work to get the fruit..... every country had to start from somewhere........ We started by building parts,mushaks,K-8s and now JF-17... thts a big step for a developing country...... Hope u get my drift.

He is not beating down JF-17. He is just beating it down in the time it arrived. Because now India possesses so many hi-tech aircraft. If it were just the Mig 29s, Mirage 2000s and Jaguars that JF-17 was taking on, no problem. But with Su 30MKIs coming in with the best of Russian tech and Rafale coming in with the best of French Tech, JF-17 is a small player.

Now if PAF wants to minimize the difference, then it desperately needs heavier aircraft! Meaning more F-16s BLK 52s or Souped up AESA J-10s or even J-11s.

I mean, come on, look at the hard points on JF-17. Only 7, 3 of which are gone with Fuel tanks. You are left with only 4 for Air to Air missiles. Now look up the similar stats for Rafale and Su30s.....!!!

 

[MastanKhan]

I am a new member and I hope nobody would mind my $.02 in this especially Mr. Khan . I agree with Mr. Sancho. In JF-17 at least we have a platform on which we can build on and it is sanction proof (unless our politicians screw up big time and make China mad) . There was no way we would have gotten those European planes, they would not have sold it to us other then Mirage 2000. PAF did the good thing in investing in force multipliers like tankers and AWACS. I have noticed that some how Mr. khan has a thing against Jf-17.

Sir,

Address me directly like a man----don't wing it. How do you know we would not have gotten any aircraft that we wanted---when everybody knew we were in desperate need of an aircraft---we had the cash at hand----the u s had given us an open invitation to get whatever we wanted---.

And don't put your 2 cents in it---talk with confidence---when you put your 2 cents in it----seems like you don't know what you are talking about---. Off course I mind---I mind when you don't have confidence and conviction behind your statement

After I read your comments----seems like you have not read a single world of what I wrote---.

I am tired of playing 'flute'.

I am not sure if PAF was interested in the Gripen as a plane itself or just it's capabilities! I mean, JF-17 has startling resemblance to Gripen, so my intuition says PAF was evaluating it at the time to quietly pass on the intricacies, what they could, to the Chengdu Design bureau!!

Hi,

You are absolutely correct on that---.

In 2005 we also suffered a massive earthquake.. we had our priorities... and we did buy the 18 F-16s with tht 3.5 billion ur talkin abt... as for grippen ... we already have JF-17 which is on par with it... now sir do enlighten me why shouldnt we have started the JFT project? what good would have come out of it? nothin except a few more jets? atleast now thanks to this project we have the technical know-how of aviation... a small aviation industry... and a platform which isnt sanction prone and we have the liberty to modify or enhance its abilities according to our own wish...... the sanctions were gone when bush called mush... but did he write an affidavit tht from 2002 onwards USA wont sanction Pakistan? heck even today they can slap a billion sanctions on us and our beloved F-16 would have to be more or less useless in a matter of time.... depending on the availablity of the spares.....Jts and aviation industry isnt created or built in a day or two.. it takes years,decades of hard work to get the fruit..... every country had to start from somewhere........ We started by building parts,mushaks,K-8s and now JF-17... thts a big step for a developing country...... Hope u get my drift.

Hi,

Excuses---excuses---excuses---that was much later---pak could have inked any deal it wanted to between 2002---2003---2004---all sob stories---it decided against it beacuse of the peace initiative with india---.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

He is not beating down JF-17. He is just beating it down in the time it arrived. Because now India possesses so many hi-tech aircraft. If it were just the Mig 29s, Mirage 2000s and Jaguars that JF-17 was taking on, no problem. But with Su 30MKIs coming in with the best of Russian tech and Rafale coming in with the best of French Tech, JF-17 is a small player.

Now if PAF wants to minimize the difference, then it desperately needs heavier aircraft! Meaning more F-16s BLK 52s or Souped up AESA J-10s or even J-11s.

I mean, come on, look at the hard points on JF-17. Only 7, 3 of which are gone with Fuel tanks. You are left with only 4 for Air to Air missiles. Now look up the similar stats for Rafale and Su30s.....!!!

It depends on the missile doesnt it? for deep strikes PAF would probably use F-16s or FC-20? as for hardpoint... im sure multiple eject ejector racks can do the job? With a high thrush engine like WS-13 and an AESA or AWAC support... id say it would become a world class fighter... also we cant just sacrifice an entire programe just coz india bought some goodies? wouldnt tht crush our aviation industry?....... its not like we are going to war with india tmrw? let the platform evolve and mature... instead of belittling it shall we?

Hi,

Excuses---excuses---excuses---that was much later---pak could have inked any deal it wanted to between 2002---2003---2004---all sob stories---it ecided against it beacuse of the peace initiative with india---.

Not excuses im being honest.. why buy a sanction prone jet instead of evolving our own?