JF-17 has edge over LCA: Pak officials

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

i didnt mean to make fun of jf-17 it was he who started . i dont think there is any point in comparing them until lca recieve foc . til then we can also wait for the improvements in jf-17

That was my point exactly!

There is no point comparing and aircraft that is pretty much operational and one that is still in development, testing.

One has to realize that if the Block II upgrades go through as planned, then the JF-17 capabilities will be markedly different from its current capabilities. Similarly, we have to wait and see what systems and capabilities the LCA has when it actually becomes operational.

 

[macintosh]

The first is a given, there could be arguments over the second, given suggested European upgrades to the engine, avionics, radar and weapons systems, and the third should be leaning towards Pakistan becasue both the Chinese and French (likely contenders for the Block II upgrades) have historically been exceptionally good suppliers.

Someone here said that Jf-17 will be made from scratch in Pakistan and china will hand over them all the technology except may be engine and some of french equipments.Is that true???
Second thing LCA will have all it's equipments available easily too so how can they say JF-17 will be better in terms of support and LCA IS OPEN ARCHITECTURE TOO.

 

[jamal18]

"in terms of cost, early availability and supportability”

The first two certainly, and the third is pretty likely.

However those three factors will not determine whether the JF-17 will be superior to the LCA in terms of capability and performance.

Yes.

And the news report is old news.

 

[Kasrkin]

I have read Indian reports making positive comparsions between the JF-17 and LCA (and Al-Khalid against Arjun), I believe they labeled both the JF-17 and Al-Khalid a success whereas the LCA and Arjuns were kind of described like embarrassments. I look them up if I find time, but I can assure you many Indians are disappointed with the LCA.

A Janes report (Military expertise doesn’t get more credible than this):

Tejas — India’s indigenously produced light combat aircraft (LCA) — appears unlikely to share even this limited level of export success as a result of recurring problems with the programme and a number of strong competitors in the light low-cost fighter market…

Whereas the JF-17 in the same report:

The Sino-Pakistani relationship is China’s most active international partnership…One of the most notable export opportunities is the JF-17 multirole aircraft. The JF-17 will place China firmly in the role of a competitor to both Russia and the US as it is being positioned as an alternative to Russian Sukhoi aircraft and (presumably second-hand) F-16s. Yang Ying, vice-president of CATIC – China’s largest aviation industry trading company– said on 19 February 2008 at the Singapore Airshow: “We know that many of our customers might also look at the F-16 or the Sukhoi, but we also know that we have a specific advantage with the JF-17; it is much cheaper than other aircraft. We think it is about one third of the cost of an F-16.” The combination of low costs and few overt political strings may well prove an increasingly attractive combination to African countries, particularly if the technological and qualitative improvements in its military equipment continue and the benefits of a close relationship with an emerging great power become increasingly apparent…As capabilities change, this situation will also evolve and future competitions look set to pitch aircraft such as the Chinese JF-17 against Russian or Western aircraft in competitions in Bangladesh, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia, Morocco and Nigeria, all of which are targeted as potential customers for the Chinese aircraft.

So the comparison, if any, should be amply clear to all in regards to these two aircraft.

 

[Hasnain2009]

HAL Tejas General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft&#178
Empty weight: 5,500 kg (12,100 lb)
Loaded weight: 8,500 kg (18,700 lb (in fighter configuration))
Max takeoff weight: 14,500 kg (32,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1× General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
Dry thrust: 54.9 kN (12,250 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 85 kN (19,000 lbf)
Internal fuel capacity: 3000 liters
External fuel capacity: 5×800 liter tanks or 3×1,200 liter tanks, totaling 4,000/3,600 liters
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,920+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m
Range: 3000 km (1,840 mi (without refueling))
Service ceiling 15,950+ m (50,000 ft (engine re-igniter safely capable))
Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft&#178
Thrust/weight: 1.02
g limits : +9 g / -3.5 g



JF-17-General characteristics

Crew: 1 (2 for proposed twin-seater)
Length: 14.0 m [35] (49 ft)
Wingspan: 9.45 m [35] (31 ft)
Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
Wing area: 24.4 m² [35] (263 ft&#178
Empty weight: 6,450 kg [35] (14,200 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,100 kg [36] including 2× wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles (20,062 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg [36] (28,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan [37]
Dry thrust: 49.4 kN [38] (11,106 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 81.4 kN [39] (18,299 lbf)
G-limit: +8.5 g [13]
Fuel Capacity: 2300kg (5,130 lb) [40]
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 [41] [42]
Combat radius: 1,352 km [43] (840 mi)
Ferry range: 3,000km [44] [45] (1,864 mi)
Service ceiling 16,700 m [46] (54,790 ft)
Thrust/weight: 0.95 [47] [48]

 

[macintosh]

I have read Indian reports making positive comparsions between the JF-17 and LCA (and Al-Khalid against Arjun), I believe they labeled both the JF-17 and Al-Khalid a success whereas the LCA and Arjuns were kind of described like embarrassments. I look them up if I find time, but I can assure you many Indians are disappointed with the LCA.

A Janes report (Military expertise doesn’t get more credible than this):

Tejas — India’s indigenously produced light combat aircraft (LCA) — appears unlikely to share even this limited level of export success as a result of recurring problems with the programme and a number of strong competitors in the light low-cost fighter market…

Whereas the JF-17 in the same report:

The Sino-Pakistani relationship is China’s most active international partnership…One of the most notable export opportunities is the JF-17 multirole aircraft. The JF-17 will place China firmly in the role of a competitor to both Russia and the US as it is being positioned as an alternative to Russian Sukhoi aircraft and (presumably second-hand) F-16s. Yang Ying, vice-president of CATIC – China’s largest aviation industry trading company– said on 19 February 2008 at the Singapore Airshow: “We know that many of our customers might also look at the F-16 or the Sukhoi, but we also know that we have a specific advantage with the JF-17; it is much cheaper than other aircraft. We think it is about one third of the cost of an F-16.” The combination of low costs and few overt political strings may well prove an increasingly attractive combination to African countries, particularly if the technological and qualitative improvements in its military equipment continue and the benefits of a close relationship with an emerging great power become increasingly apparent…As capabilities change, this situation will also evolve and future competitions look set to pitch aircraft such as the Chinese JF-17 against Russian or Western aircraft in competitions in Bangladesh, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia, Morocco and Nigeria, all of which are targeted as potential customers for the Chinese aircraft.

So the comparison, if any, should be amply clear to all in regards to these two aircraft.

First of all no links provided.
Second Jf-17 uses RD93 A DERIVATIVE OF RD 33 which China license produce so sale to any other country requires permission of Russia and if russia deemed that it affecting their market they will refuse.So unless China develops engine on it's own it is unlikely to be a major contender.And even a second hand F-16 is much better as compared to JF-17.At one third of price but also at one third of capability so only for countries facing cash crunch unless a block II having some features of J-10 comes up.

 

[Lockheed F-16]

A German expert called the Tejas also a failure:

India’s indigenous Tejas is plane under perpetual development. This “plane” has had the longest development cycle of any train, plane or automobile in the history of world. After a decade of false starts, abject failures, the Tejas remains a but of jokes among the engineers, journalists and scientists in the aviation industry

 

[Hasnain2009]

Keep in mind that JF-17 is very old AC as compare to LCA, when LCA will come full operational, JF-17 would very advance at that time!!

 

[macintosh]

HAL Tejas General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
Empty weight: 5,500 kg (12,100 lb)
Loaded weight: 8,500 kg (18,700 lb (in fighter configuration))
Max takeoff weight: 14,500 kg (32,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1× General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
Dry thrust: 54.9 kN (12,250 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 85 kN (19,000 lbf)
Internal fuel capacity: 3000 liters
External fuel capacity: 5×800 liter tanks or 3×1,200 liter tanks, totaling 4,000/3,600 liters
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,920+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m
Range: 3000 km (1,840 mi (without refueling))
Service ceiling 15,950+ m (50,000 ft (engine re-igniter safely capable))
Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.02
g limits : +9 g / -3.5 g



JF-17-General characteristics

Crew: 1 (2 for proposed twin-seater)
Length: 14.0 m [35] (49 ft)
Wingspan: 9.45 m [35] (31 ft)
Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
Wing area: 24.4 m² [35] (263 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,450 kg [35] (14,200 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,100 kg [36] including 2× wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles (20,062 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg [36] (28,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan [37]
Dry thrust: 49.4 kN [38] (11,106 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 81.4 kN [39] (18,299 lbf)
G-limit: +8.5 g [13]
Fuel Capacity: 2300kg (5,130 lb) [40]
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 [41] [42]
Combat radius: 1,352 km [43] (840 mi)
Ferry range: 3,000km [44] [45] (1,864 mi)
Service ceiling 16,700 m [46] (54,790 ft)
Thrust/weight: 0.95 [47] [48]

All these things have been already discussed so please dont make it LCA VS JF17 THREAD.

 

[macintosh]

A German expert called the Tejas also a failure:

India’s indigenous Tejas is plane under perpetual development. This “plane” has had the longest development cycle of any train, plane or automobile in the history of world. After a decade of false starts, abject failures, the Tejas remains a but of jokes among the engineers, journalists and scientists in the aviation industry

Hey Lockheed F16 by now I know you are not aware of even JF17 forget about LCA.

 

[Lockheed F-16]

Hey Lockheed F16 by now I know you are not aware of even JF17 forget about LCA.

And you are?

 

[macintosh]

Keep in mind that JF-17 is very old AC as compare to LCA, when LCA will come full operational, JF-17 would very advance at that time!!

Planning for LCA block II have already started and I dont think except from some french equipments and may be a new engine derivative anything is going to change as China also wants Pak to order more J-10.

 

[Hasnain2009]

And JF-17's radar can manage upto 40 targets at a time, while LCA's radar can manage 10 targets!! And JF-17's also have ECM suites(Electronic Ware Fare) used for radar jamming.

JF-17 is fitted with a radar warning receiver (RWR) that gives data to the pilot on direction and proximity of enemy radars, as well as an onboard electronic counter-measures (ECM) suite that interferes with these radars to help stop them targeting the aircraft. These systems can be enhanced by the addition of externally-mounted avionics pods:


A Missile Approach Warning (MAW) system is incorporated, using several optical sensors mounted on the airframe that can detect the missile's rocket motor to collect information on the nature of the threat. Data collected by the MAW system, such as direction of inbound missiles and the time to impact (TTI), is shown on the cockpit displays and HUD to warn the pilot.
A countermeasures dispensing system is also present, dispensing decoy flares and chaff to decoy enemy radars and inbound missiles, helping the aircraft evade them. Flares decoy heat-seeking missiles by giving off a very similar heat signature to the aircraft's jet engines, whereas chaff confuses enemy radar systems trying to detect and target the aircraft (such those used by radar-guided air-to-air missiles).

These systems not only make JF-17 more survivable in combat, but also make it very effective in the roles of aerial reconnaissance and suppression (or destruction) of enemy air defence (SEAD) when the appropriate avionics pods and weaponry are mounted on the aircraft.

 

[macintosh]

And you are?

You have just put one liners and not facts.Beside I am not saying that I know all.The point is if you want to argue put some facts to bolster it.

 

[Lockheed F-16]

Well, there was a normal post, too! Besides, it was often enough mentioned that Tejas is crap and nothing else